Am I wrong for expressing my anger toward fur lovers?

[violet13]

http://www.furisdead.com/feat-dogcatfur.asp

 

Vegan forum want to ban me for speaking strongly against people who wear fur coats without any shame.

Am I wrong for expressing my anger toward fur lovers?

I consider myself lucky if they ban me because there is no way for me to respect people who careless about how innocent defenseless aniamls are tortured to death to make fur coats.

I used my username violet13 on forum below.

What is your opinion about my messages posted on forum below?

 

http://veganfreaks.net/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1441

[Jay]

http://www.furisdead.com/feat-dogcatfur.asp

 

Vegan forum want to ban me for speaking strongly against people who wear fur coats without any shame.

But in the thread you're not speaking strongly against people who wear fur coats without shame. You are speaking strongly against other vegans who happen to be related to someone who wears a fur coat without shame whom apparently isn't as filled with hatred towards their relation as you think they should be.

 

Am I wrong for expressing my anger toward fur lovers?

I'd say it's OK to be angry at fur lovers. But there weren't any fur lovers there.

 

I consider myself lucky if they ban me because there is no way for me to respect people who careless about how innocent defenseless aniamls are tortured to death to make fur coats.

Every single person there was against fur. Maybe you are trying to say you just don't think they're against fur quite as much as they should be. It's not enough for that girl to be against fur and tell her mom it's wrong, etc. She has to hate her mom.

 

Is that what you are trying to say?

 

It's obvious english is not your first language. Maybe there is just some kind of miscommunication. You almost seem to think you're talking to someone who wears fur, when there isn't anyone there who wears fur.

[Guest]

i'm all for being a hater, but you're just a bit of a t-dog.

[violet13]

My point is she thinks her mother is beautuful person knowing she eat meat and wear fur coats.

How beautiful person can wear fur coats without any shame?

If my mother loves fur and wear it without any shame, there is no way for me to think she is beautiful person.

To be honest, fur is sadist symbol in our society where communication system is so advanced and almost everybody has least one television, radio, newspaper, magazine, etc.

It doesn't matter who wear fur.

It takes person without conscience to wear fur knowing how innocent defenseless animals are TORTURED to death.

There is no justification to support BARBARITY.

I am sure everybody who doesn't agree with me have completely different idea if they were fur bearing animals and being skinned alive or strangle to death but because people cannot put themselves in animals' place and think, these people have no idea why I hate people who wear fur without any shame.

Most people who wear fur are not ignorant about horrible torture and killing of animals for vanity, they are well aware of it but don't care.

Of course it is so easy to say love our enemy, but can you love people who support barbarity?

People who wear fur coats and fur trim are supporting barbarity.

Please put yourself in place of animals who are skinned alive or strangled to death to make fur coats.

I guess most people don't feel strongly against fur as long as people are not skinned alive or strangle to death.

[Richard]

I was banned from vegan forum, it's wank

[Richard]

violet, what you said on that forum was totally reasonable, I think half-arsed omni-lovers are laughable. I do believe that some people haven't thought about fur very much, and haven't considered how cruel it is. However, I also believe that almost everyone who wears fur would not change their ways after it has been explained. It's all over the news these days, not many people can claim to be ignorant of it.

[Richard]

I posted on the thread as kazuya. I'll get banned from veganfreaks now probably, but i could give a shit. Veganbodybuilding.com forum and vegansrock.net are the only vegan forums I've found that aren't 50%+ full of dickheads

[violet13]

Richard, you should feel proud if vegan freak forum ban you because who want to communicate with luke warm supposedly vegan/animal rights people.

I was banned from Christian forums, and other vegan forum by speaking up truth, but I consider myself lucky person because I don't want to keep communicating with people with corrupted minds.

People who think beautiful people wear fur coats are mentally deranged people and they need help to be normal and gain clear conscience.

Like I said, people who don't agree with me are unable to put themselves in place of animals and think.

The reason why some people don't agree with me is because they are not being skinned alive or strangle to death and never know unimaginable pain and suffering of fur bearing animals who are tortured to death for vanity.

Many animals are still alive and their heart is beating when their whole skin is removed.

What kind of sadists can stand this kind of barbarity and defend people who wear fur coats for vanity!!!

Yes, you and I are right no matter what others say.

[Kathryn]

Violet, I don't think what you posted (or what Richard posted) should have gotten you banned. I think posters there (on in particular) were a bit too defensive about another member and felt that she was being attacked directly (which she wasn't). Your posts could have started an interesting conversation, instead all attempts were made to censor you.

 

It does seem too me that the woman whose mother wears fur is just passively sitting by while mom goes on wearing fur, because mom is a wonderful person. She may be, but you can hate what a person does without hating the person (which some of the board posters don't seem to understand...but you are not making clear there either).

[veggymeggy]

I read the whole thread, and I think they're crazy. I can't stand forums that disallow debate. Violet, I think it's perfectly clear you were not personally attacking but trying to make a general point. I don't think your general point is as clear as it could be, but it's nonetheless clearly not an attack. Richard, I think you clarified it even further. I'm not sure what everyone is so offended about; I didn't seee anything offensive in any of your posts. Not a very welcoming community it seems!

[sinisterkungfu]

I don't like forums that do nothing but talk shit about outsiders. I got banned from veganforum.com because it's run by idiots and all I did was disagree with some of the more whackjob extremist posters there. Boards like that, and the one posted here are nothing but a place for a bunch of self-righteous douchebags to bash anyone that doesn't agree with whatever narrow-minded philosophy they're trying to push.

[violet13]

I am 100% sure, if most people on that vegan freak forum get exactly same treatment fur bearing animals get, they are going to be terrified and hate people who are drowning them or skinning them but because they are not feeling exactly what animals go through, they speak about forgiveness and need to be polite!!!

I wish I can let them to experience exactly same torture and death animals are experiencing for them to understand what they are talking about when they speak about forgiveness and need to be polite with ing sick people who keep buying and wearing fur coats.

When you see innocent totally defenseless animals are drowned to death or skinned alive, can you help yourself not get angry at people who keep buying fur coats?

They are telling us to respect people who wear fur coats and show kindness to these sickening cold blooded heartless people UNTIL THEY EXPERIENCE EXACTLY SAME PAIN AND SUFFERING FUR BEARING ANIMALS EXPERIENCE!!!

[Richard]

can't be bothered to post on there anymore, they aren't even responding. They're just saying 'End of discussion' etc, as if that proves that they are right. They haven't commented on my logic, and they try to say that me and violet are the same person, dumbasses. Very unreasonable people.

[Jay]

Violet, so what is the best way to perform vegan activism?

 

Some think that in order to reach omni's you have to be very respectful and not scare them away. Then hopefully they will want to learn more. If you get in their face, they will just run the other way as fast as they can. If you show anger towards them, they will just get angry back and refuse to listen to anything you have to say.

 

But it depends. I think getting angry would work best on some people. So I don't know.

[willpeavy]

I am 100% sure, if most people on that vegan freak forum get exactly same treatment fur bearing animals get, they are going to be terrified and hate people who are drowning them or skinning them but because they are not feeling exactly what animals go through, they speak about forgiveness and need to be polite!!!

I wish I can let them to experience exactly same torture and death animals are experiencing for them to understand what they are talking about when they speak about forgiveness and need to be polite with ing sick people who keep buying and wearing fur coats.

When you see innocent totally defenseless animals are drowned to death or skinned alive, can you help yourself not get angry at people who keep buying fur coats?

They are telling us to respect people who wear fur coats and show kindness to these sickening cold blooded heartless people UNTIL THEY EXPERIENCE EXACTLY SAME PAIN AND SUFFERING FUR BEARING ANIMALS EXPERIENCE!!!

 

I think the reason people take the forgiving/polite route is because no one is perfect. For example, the computer you are using to read this likely has parts that were made by laborers somewhere in south Asia who are treated miserably. I could get angry and go around calling you all sorts of names like "sickening, cold blooded" etc, for using a computer that contains such components, but I don't think that would really help anyone. If you were interested though, I think calmly explaining why I support labor unions for low-wage factory workers would probably go over better

[madcat]

I think its funny how so many other people say bad things about fur and people who wear fur early in that forum. Livingphotograhs says “how completely ing.”

 

Rantingsteve says “Fur is ing. As ing as fur is, what makes this even more ing is that the fur "coats" pictured in the links are a status symbol and not any practical protection against the elements. This goes beyond the evils of killing animals for food. I put these people in the same category as those who hunt for sport. Fuckers”

 

Mr. Spock calls them “assholes”.

 

It seemed everyone was on the same page until sherbs says his/her mom wears fur.

 

That seems like a good point. How dare you say bad things about Sherbs’s mom. I’m sure she is the most kindhearted animal butcher around. Now don’t get mad… I’m not trying to pick on her and I know SHE didn’t do it to be mean. Who could even stop to think about all the little critters being drowned to death when you’re so busy being stylish? I mean really.

[violet13]

Jay, when animals are drowning to death or strangle to death, they don't think.

How can we have room in our heart to think about politeness and respect for cold blooded idiot who keep buying fur coat while animals are drowning or strangle to death?

If you cannot understand what I am trying to tell you, try to keep your face under the water for 5 minutes.

How much suffering do you think you experience?

To be honest, I don't want you to torture yourself but I just said what I said to make you to understand about shocking brutality in process of making fur coats.

My point is while innocent defenseless animals are drowning or strangled to death, I don't have room in my heart to think about politeness and respect for cold blooded barbarians who promote horrible torture and killing of animals for their vanity.

While animals are tortured and killed, I cannot stay calm and speak about kindness and respect for fur lovers.

Please don't tell me that some people are wearing fur coats because they are ignorant.

Today, almost everybody knows about chilling brutalities in fur business.

[violet13]

Richard, moderator on that vegan freak forum is not serious Animal Rights person.

I lost my interest of posting message on that forum because moderator has nothing intelligent to say and only thing he want to do is preventing other people to express our opinion about fur.

To him, defending fur lover is more important than think about horrible pain and suffering of animals!

 

madcat, you are talented and I like what you said, specially when you said her mother is most kind hearted ANIMAL BUTCHER.

Yes, fur lovers are worrying about being stylish while animals are drowning to death in water or strangle to death!

Only sadists can stand to wear fur.

[Jay]

To be honest, I don't want you to torture yourself but I just said what I said to make you to understand about shocking brutality in process of making fur coats.

Yes, I already understood it.

 

My point is while innocent defenseless animals are drowning or strangled to death, I don't have room in my heart to think about politeness and respect for cold blooded barbarians who promote horrible torture and killing of animals for their vanity.

While animals are tortured and killed, I cannot stay calm and speak about kindness and respect for fur lovers.

OK, well I can. We're just different.

 

Please don't tell me that some people are wearing fur coats because they are ignorant.

Today, almost everybody knows about chilling brutalities in fur business.

Sorry but, no they do not. Not even close. Less then 10% for certain. Probably less than 5%. They eat meat, they don't want to know about these things. You'd have to tie more than 50% down and hold their eyelids open to get them to watch the videos of what is done.

[Guest]

violet 33 or whatever your name is.... crack is vegan, but it's not always good.

[compassionategirl]

Please don't tell me that some people are wearing fur coats because they are ignorant.

Today, almost everybody knows about chilling brutalities in fur business.

 

You'd have to tie more than 50% down and hold their eyelids open to get them to watch the videos of what is done.

 

But in my opinion, willful blindness is just as bad as actual knowledge. I think it is fair to impute knowledge to willfully blind people.

 

However, Violet, not all people are even wilfully blind. yes, everybody knows that meat and fur involved killing. But many people dont have a clue about the cruelties involved beyond that. Four years ago when I was happily enjoying a steak dinner and wearing my leather jacket (I never wore fur mind you), I was neither a sadist nor was I willfuly blind, Violet. Unless you define willfuly blind as somebody who does not go out and actively research without being invited to do so by somebody more aware. It was very natural for me to eat meat. I was raised in a very meat and potatoes family. Nobody ever questioned it. I had just never put my mind to the issue, and I had never been exposed to any ar campaign, knowledge, information, etc. (which leads me to believe by the way that there are so many potental vegans out there and all it would take is some ar literature and maybe some cruel footage. We are just not getting to them fast enough). I had never even heard of a factory farm up until about 4 years ago, yet they have been around for decades.

 

When I was offered the info, I listened. And once I listened, I knew. I was aware. I was informed. Once I was aware, informed, etc. I had to act on that knowledge. I couldnt pretend that I did not know, nor did want to pretend that I didnt know.

 

There are meat eaters etc. who are CLUELESS, but not necessarily sadist or cruel. I was one of them, up until about 3-4 years ago.

 

However, if somebody has been made aware of the cruelty, and simply doesnt care, or closes his ears and eyes when people are trying to inform/educate, well, that is ing in my opinion. So here I am talking again about actual knowledge of cruelty or imputed knowledge of cruelty.

 

And lastly, Violet, I do understand the sense of urgency and outrage that you feel. It is hard not to feel it when you see animals being skinned alive, etc etc.

 

But why waste your energies arguing on a vegan forum, trying to convince vegans of the cruelties of fur? (I should take my own advice here because I get caught up in this all the time). They know already. You energies are better spent leafletting people who DONT know, writing letters to editors in your area to reach people that DONT know, etc. etc.

 

I understand that it is hard to stay calm with very real images of animals tortured past and present in your head. I am very much like you in that regard.

 

I remember Will Peavy had posted something by vegan outreach that really caused me to question my approach in advocacy:

 

"The animals dont need us to be right, they need us to be effective."

 

And even though you correctly think the images and descriptions of torture should be enough for people to feel the same outrage you feel, unfortunately, sadly, that often just isnt the case. So you need to speak to them in a language that they understand, even though you just want to shake the crap out of them and slap them silly until they have that "lightbulb" moment!

Edited December 29, 2005 by compassionategirl

[Aaron]

Jay I think the thing I usually come back to is not even whether they know/care but could they do the act themselves. I think for a lot of people it's no. Like they might be ok with chickens being killed. But they'd have a hard time doing it themselves. I think you're right though, lots don't care. But maybe if most people were vegan or a good portion they'd continue to not care what they eat and eat the default vegan foods that are offered... Funny thought thought I suppose.

[violet13]

willpeavy, Of course everybody is contributing to some degree of animal suffering.

For example, when we walk on the street, we are stepping on tiny insects and killing them.

When cats guardians let their cats to go out, these cats kill mice, rats, and birds, etc in sadistic manner.

My point is buying fur contribute greatest degree of animal torture and it is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

We just cannot compare killing of fleas and other tiny insects to torturing fur bearing animals to death because of difference in degree of suffering.

I am sure people who wear fur coats never get upset by watching blood bath of bullfights when bulls are drown to death in their own blood.

Your statement of nobody is perfect therefore we must forgive and be polite to people who contribute most horrible animal cruelty does not make sense to me.

 

Question is degree of cruelty people support.

Do you feel it is ok to drown animals and strangle animals to death to make fur coats is justified?

[Richard]

if somebody has been made aware of the cruelty, and simply doesnt care, or closes his ears and eyes when people are trying to inform/educate, well, that is ing in my opinion.

 

That's what happens with basically everyone I've ever talked to. My old flat-mate went semi-tarian after knowing me for 3 years, but that is all. Even then, after hearing the reasoning and the facts the first time, he argued and argued, and it wasn't until 3 years later that he did something.

 

I know there are some people who do react to the truth, but the vast vast majority of people actually don't care, or at least, the people I have talked to. Everyone knows about vegetarianism at least, yet they dismiss it. It's not like vegetarianism is a secret. I'd bet money that almost everyone in the west has a vegetarian as a friend, or at least has met a vegetarian, and therefore has been exposed to the reasoning. I don't have very much faith in the majority of people. I do think it is worth explaining stuff to them. But I also don't believe it's as simple as you're saying, and I think the number of people who would say "Oh yeah, I have been completely wrong my entire life" is actually very low, and it's unlikely that anyone would react that way. I think people are generally selfish and barbaric, and there is a minority of compassionate people, which is sad.

[violet13]

Richard, I completely agree with you from my experience.

My eating habit changed the day when I went Animal Rights meeting and saw sickening debeaking of chicks on the screen about 30 years ago.

That was more than enough for me to stop eating animal flesh instantly and completely.

Later, I stop buying all dairy products and eggs.

 

I thought posting my messages on Christian forums and exposing chilling brutalities in livestock farms and slaughterhouses help many people who are calling themselves Christian to re-think their contribution to horrible LIFE LONG torture and cruel death of farm animals but I was wrong.

Most Christian forums banned me and all my messages to expose dark side of livestock farms(specially factory farms) are deleted.

To be fair, there are small numbers of Christian who are striving to live cruelty free life style but most people who call themselves Christian show no sensitivity or love for farm animals because they view animals as their food,clothing, and experimental tools.

I no longer interested to have association with ordinary Christian because of their selfishness, insensitivity, and dishonesty but despite my and disbelief, I still have small voice in my heart telling me "Don't give up".

When we give up, animals have no hope because we are only people animals can depend on.

Looking at bright side. www.all-creatures.org is wonderful site to educate people about reality of dark side of animal exploitation.

We all need to show film 'Witness' and 'Peaceable Kingdom' etc by using these films as wake up call to people who have clear conscience.

Maybe you already have these films but if you don't and interested to buy them, please click on www.tribeofheart.com/