DesmondMajestic Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Hi, all. Newbie here and long time carnivore and fat guy. So I'm coming at this question from a standpoint of ignorance. I have a carnivorous bodybuilding friend who has gotten great results. Of course, he's an opinionated jerk as well. I showed him some of the images from the gallery and he said two things. First, which I think he's full of crap, is that nobody could get that large without animal protein. Again, I know that's not true. Second, and more delicately, is that a few of the people could never have gotten that large without the help of a steroid. One guy in particular, who I won't name because I don't want to call someone out. I make no value judgements on steroids, make no accusations, and realize that being animal based, steroids aren't likely vegan. But, can you give me some ammo I can go back to this guy and say "Yes you can"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daywalker Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 But, can you give me some ammo I can go back to this guy and say "Yes you can"?No.If he doesn't believe what's on the main board, if he thinks we're liers and/or roid users... how would he believe anything we say now??? But "yes, you can" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaSiren Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Welcome to the board! This reminds of my Adkins dieting (for 4 years now) very overweight MIL, who saw the calendar and said point blank "they cheat". DH said "Pardon? what do you mean cheat, steroids?" She said "no they eat chicken or turkey or something, they lie" Nice! Anyway these type of people are not worth the effort. Do your own thing and lead by example. There is wonderful help here, and some of the Hottest looking Bodybuilders IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daywalker Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 She said "no they eat chicken or turkey or something, they lie" One guy on a german board told me right away all vegans are liers, because they all eat animal products - because you'd die if you didn't He was not to be convinced otherwise, any reason, argument, picture or proof he denied as a lie. He didn't bother to answer my question WHY we should lie about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesmondMajestic Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 I am coming into this with an open mind. I know too many healthy vegans to think that animal protein is required for healthy living. I only asked about the steroids because every vegan person I've ever seen is incredibly fit and cut, but doesn't have huge bulk across the chest. There are a few people in the gallery that cross that mental line for me. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt though. I agonized on how to ask it so as not to insult anyone. I will tell you that "Common Knowledge" is very strong and persistant in this regard. "Protein or Death" combines with "Soy will give you boobs because of the estrogen and shrink your brain" to provide a very high hill to climb. I'm a born skeptic, and believe nothing until I verify it myself, so I don't believe either of those two statements. But neither did I initially believe the "Soy as panacaea" and "Vegan or death" statements that I've heard from other places. Combine that with the fact that for whatever reason, I always incorrectly associated veganism with caloric restriction, and every CR person I've seen is thin as a rail, you can understand some doubt. I'm still learning, and may not be fully vegan for a few weeks, but I'll be converting a meal at a time. Thanks everyone. Oh, and for the record, that's not bismarck, it's Major General Sir Joseph Phillips in 1906, the result of a random search for "Admiral Desmond" on images.google, which I have used as my avatar for a long time. Trust me, he's alot better looking than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 its really scary that such an attitude prevails! i mean i have met so many big, muscular, athletic, fit vegans that i really cannot comprehend that people would think we eat anything other than a vegan diet. it really does show the ignorance that prevails. what can you say though? i mean i suppose that the best thing you could do is arrange a face to face meeting with these unbelievers and try to reason with them that way... DesmondMajestic - dont worry, you arent alone - i used to work with this fitness fanatic guy who immediately said that daywalker and ryan were juicing. it took me a little while, but i managed to persuade him that that wasnt the case! jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daywalker Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Oh, and for the record, that's not bismarck, it's Major General Sir Joseph Phillips in 1906, the result of a random search for "Admiral Desmond" on images.google, which I have used as my avatar for a long time.I knew it wasn't Bismarck, i was just joking.Of course i didn't know who it really was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 First, which I think he's full of crap, is that nobody could get that large without animal protein. Again, I know that's not true.Of course all one has to do to get really big strong muscles is to eat a ton of food. I could have a diet consisting of peanut butter, corn chips and OJ and eat myself to a 400 pound bench press. Of course I might have to get really really fat. The thing is to somehow get the muscle without the fat. It's pretty hard to prove we're not all just lying. FWIW I have lifted 17 years and have only been vegan the last two and it hasn't made a difference. Second, and more delicately, is that a few of the people could never have gotten that large without the help of a steroid. One guy in particular, who I won't name because I don't want to call someone out.There are some guys so big and cut that it's natural to wonder about steriods. But I know my brother-in-law has never taken steriods and he was benching close to 400 when he had a six pack. (Not vegan though, just a nonsteriod example.) There are people out there that I've seen and been certain they must be taking something but no one on the main page of this site looks like that. One guy is close, but I understand that some people just have excellent genetics. Now if someone who looks like Marius Pudnowski (sp) or Ronnie Coleman gets on the main page, I'm going to assume steriods but still be impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Ask him what he thinks is in animal protein that you can't get from eating plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Desmond, Please do not be afraid to ask any questions! The boys can handle it. Trust me, they have seen and heard it all before. Dont be shy to ask. You are new to this and still learning, and so there are no dumb questions. yes, many people still think that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be big and muscular without animal protein, even though there are millions of vegans disproving this theory. And even though there is science disproving this theory (see pcrm.org. The Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine that promotes preventative medicine via a vegan diet). This is something so ingrained in us from the day we are born that anybody who is a living breathing example that shoots a whole into that "Truth" is automatically accused of "juicing", "lying", "secretly eating meat", etc. etc. But if people just researched veganism, honestly and seriously, then they would realize that the meat and dairy industries have been feeding consumers misinformation in order to sell their products (i.e. animals) since what seems like the beginning of time! I can tell you that the pics here are 100% VEGAN muscle. A vegan diet combined with smart, dedicated training is all it takes. You must understand that many people will try and knock vegans and veganism because they feel threatened. The truth about food really does rock somebody's world because you realize that so many things you were taught growing up as being "Truths", were in fact, incorrect. That you need animal protein to be healthy and strong is one example. Because people accept this as "Truth", with a capital T, anything that challenges it is automatically discredited in their minds and thus cast aside as wrong. Alex even beat out meat eaters at his last bodybuilding championship! But honestly, if somebody truly wants to see proof, and truly will not believe anything they are told, I guess the only way they can ever be sure (if they are convinced that people are liars) is to take on the quest themselves and see if it CAN be done. It is amazing how people can be shown proof (i.e. pictures of vegan boydbuilders, even meet them in person) and STILL not believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Check out this thread Desmond, for some more vegan bodybuilder pics: viewtopic.php?t=1301&start=0 and maybe email them to your skeptical friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I haven't looked at the gallery photos, but I'm pretty sure that most body builders at the level of the Olympia contest (or any other contest that isn't specifically "natural") probably use 'roids and/or growth hormone to get the big and cut (especially that cut). There may be a very small percentage of humans who can do both without the pharmaceutical help, but the aesthetics of the "sport" as it currently is require most to go the drug route. Just MHO, but look at bodybuilders before 'roids became prominent in the sport. They may be big, but they are not ripped to shred like the Olympia guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannalift Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 why limit the debate to the aestetics. look at probably the greatest track athlete of all time (Carl Lewis) and the best modern and probably all-time ultra marathoner (Scott Jurek). both credit their world class performance to being vegan. we also have state and national champion powerlifters and as you have seen on this site, champion bodybuilders. also some bloody strong hybird lifters who are tearing up the strongman ciruits. i have gained over 40lbs (30-35 muscle) since going vegan. most others on here have similar results because we use more intelligent training and eating methods rather than what the muscle comics say to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrispyQ Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 muscle comics I like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Soy will give you boobs i wish that was true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrispyQ Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Soy will give you boobs i wish that was true ROTFLMAO!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannalift Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Soy will give you boobs i wish that was true no, soy will only give you boobs if you're male. i think it shrinks breasts for women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 ROTFLMAO!!!! huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 ...would potentially give a very small percentage of men boobs if they constantly eat a ton of it. Soy is way overemphasized though. Too many processed frozen vegan meals are filled with soy. Vegan diet != soy, soy and more soy. I virtually never eat soy. Madcat, Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Why does the guy think that vegans take steroids, but not meat-eaters? What evidence does he have that the meat-eaters that he knows don't do steroids, and how is that evidence different to the evidence provided here? What evidence would convince him? Seems like you can't give 100% evidence online to someone who you've never met. But maybe one argument you could give him is: Which is more likely; that every single vegan body builder is doing steroids, or that some of them aren't? I think it's only logical to assume that not every single vegan bodybuilder is on steroids. therefore, you have to accept that some of the photos you look at won't be people who are on steroids, even if you can't tell for sure who it is. I personally don't know who uses steroids, I don't think it can be proven. But there isn't any reason to think that vegans are more likely to be taking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 i think it shrinks breasts for women. That’s not true… when your not workin with much you keep tabs of what ya got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Nice! Anyway these type of people are not worth the effort. Do your own thing and lead by example. That's so true! I wouldn't reply to such an accusation. I mean, come on, why should we cheat about it? If he doesn't believe what he has seen or what you show him if you'll train your body in the future he is just dumb... Veganism is the healthiest diet - why shouldn't anyone change if it's good for his own health? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veggymeggy Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Soy will give you boobs i wish that was true No you don't, TRUST ME!!!! You're way better off on the smaller end of things......anyway...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 obviously, not being actually having breasts, i cant say, but bigger is better than smaller! jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I've always been a supporter of breasts. Size/shape not really important : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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