advice on not doing AR much anymore...

[the Asocial Ape]

If my personal freedoms were being infringed upon to the point that I could not live a fruitful life, I would have no problem fighting back. Things have not gotten to that point yet and most likely won't in my lifetime.

 

you live in the exact right country, then. your freedom to lead a fruitful life will never be infringed. if you work kind of hard, or have the right parents, you can even live in a gated community, where you won't even have to _see_ suffering, let alone sully your hands trying to stop it.

 

bravo!! bravo, i say, on your choice of birth locations. though i might suggest you move to los angeles, where you'll find lots and lots of people sharing your attitude.

[Guest]

Many many people have been freed for tortuous lives with the aid of violent warfare. No I don't like wars but sometimes war is the best/most useful form of revolution. If you never get angry you'll always be taken advantage of...not on the individual basis but as a society or group.

[tommybricks]

I don't give a f**k what anyone else does and I don't try and change anyone unless I care about them and they want my help.

 

Things are as they are and you can only control yourself. Protesting is bullshit. Voting is bullshit. If you think something is wrong then change it, if you can't change it than find something you can and focus on that. Don't feel guilty because of other people's expectations.

 

I don't mind watching the human race catapaulting towards extinction.

[Zack]

 

I don't mind watching the human race catapaulting towards extinction.

 

That's unfortunate.

[offense74]

You can use all the violence you want for however good a cause, if you haven't convinced people that what you're saying is the right thing, it will backfire. Always.

So while the prisoners at treblinka were quite glad to be liberated alot of Iraqis are not. There is a difference.

[health freak]

You can use all the violence you want for however good a cause, if you haven't convinced people that what you're saying is the right thing, it will backfire. Always.

So while the prisoners at treblinka were quite glad to be liberated alot of Iraqis are not. There is a difference.

 

I so much agree with this

[the Asocial Ape]

So while the prisoners at treblinka were quite glad to be liberated alot of Iraqis are not. There is a difference.

 

true. but my statement re treblinka was in response to someone's comment that 'violence is always wrong. it just creates more violence.'

[the Asocial Ape]

I don't give a f**k what anyone else does and I don't try and change anyone unless I care about them and they want my help.

 

Things are as they are and you can only control yourself. Protesting is bullshit. Voting is bullshit. If you think something is wrong then change it, if you can't change it than find something you can and focus on that. Don't feel guilty because of other people's expectations.

 

I don't mind watching the human race catapaulting towards extinction.

 

i think we'd get a long very well, you and i!

[the Asocial Ape]

You can use all the violence you want for however good a cause, if you haven't convinced people that what you're saying is the right thing, it will backfire. Always.

So while the prisoners at treblinka were quite glad to be liberated alot of Iraqis are not. There is a difference.

 

I so much agree with this

 

you just wrote, in what seemed to be a condemnation of anger and violence, "anger will bring anger. violence will also bring more violence."

 

your beliefs seem to be like a moving target. stable as jell-o.

 

do you people who don't care about animal suffering have any steel in you? are your beliefs that malleable?

[offense74]

Was Ghandi passionate? Is violence the only manifestation of passion and belief?

I think there are many ways to protest the things one believe is wrong.

[the Asocial Ape]

Was Ghandi passionate? Is violence the only manifestation of passion and belief?

I think there are many ways to protest the things one believe is wrong.

 

indeed he was. he was a thousand times tougher than i could ever hope to be.

 

and there are many ways to protest. i think that taking action remedy those things you find abhorrent (in my case, animal suffering), as opposed to merely voice your opposition, is even more important than protest.

 

but while we're on the topic of gandhi, let's remember that he wasn't a lamb. he was lion. he didn't just protest. he worked to stop the opression of the indians in south africa and india. he interfered. he broke the law. he gathered salt, knowing he would be arrested. he burned his id papers. he stood up for OTHERS, not for himself.

 

and finally, don't forget these statements he made -

 

"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor."

 

and

 

"I want both the Hindus and Mussalmans to cultivate the cool courage to die without killing. But if one has not that courage, I want him to cultivate the art of killing and being killed rather than, in a cowardly manner, flee from danger. For the latter, in spite of his flight, does commit mental himsa. He flees because he has not the courage to be killed in the act of killing."

 

i don't think people that are so selfish and shallow that they are concerned only for their own freedom, health, and happiness (and i don't mean you, offense), are worthy of aligning themselves with gandhi.

[health freak]

You can use all the violence you want for however good a cause, if you haven't convinced people that what you're saying is the right thing, it will backfire. Always.

So while the prisoners at treblinka were quite glad to be liberated alot of Iraqis are not. There is a difference.

 

I so much agree with this

 

you just wrote, in what seemed to be a condemnation of anger and violence, "anger will bring anger. violence will also bring more violence."

 

your beliefs seem to be like a moving target. stable as jell-o.

 

do you people who don't care about animal suffering have any steel in you? are your beliefs that malleable?

 

 

I think you misunderstood me. the fact that i agreed on what Offence74 wrote, doesn't cancel my belief to non violence. If you try not to be so fanatic you'll realise that What offence said, and i agreed on, was that regardless of what violence you may use protesting, things will change only if you persuade people. And this doesn't cancel what i've said earlier.

 

Btw, i've never said that if my life or a friend or my country is threatened, i should be passive. Defending some ideals you have is a good thing. But violence, veangence, anger are different things. All you get back, is the exact same feelings. Nothing changes. What you try to protest to, continuous perpetually....

 

And please don't speak to me as if speaking to ALL the people who don't care about A/R. The fact that you care about animals is something good. However this doesn't mean that every other person is inferior to you and hasn't any steel in them or their beliefs are malleable....

[the Asocial Ape]

I think you misunderstood me. the fact that i agreed on what Offence74 wrote, doesn't cancel my belief to non violence.

ok.

 

If you try not to be so fanatic you'll realise that What offence said, and i agreed on...

i'll never be anything but fanatical in my opposition to the butchering of my innocent brothers and sisters.

 

suggesting that is akin to asking a husband not to be so fanatically opposed to his wife being gang raped.

 

And please don't speak to me as if speaking to ALL the people who don't care about A/R. The fact that you care about animals is something good. However this doesn't mean that every other person is inferior to you and hasn't any steel in them or their beliefs are malleable....

i don't think i'm superior. i hold myself in the same contempt i hold most other people. i'm at work, whilst there are battery hens being abused a mere fifty miles from where i sit typing.

 

but when i leave work today, i'll be going out for my daily two hour stint working to succor feral cats, and so for that time, i will in fact be superior to you, if in nothing else, in terms of my expression of compassion.

[skittles888]

Wow, a lot of comments since I last visited...

 

Mr. Ape, I don't agree with one word you have said, but I think the biggest problem I have with your ideals is your focus on the "masses" over the individual.

 

I live for myself, and so do you (when you get up in the morning, you decide that it is in your self interest to live...the definition of selfish). Even when you are protesting animal violence, volunteering with sheltered animals, etc., you have still made the decision to do so. You are always living for yourself.

 

Why are you so fanatical about people living for others? Why do I have to suffer so that everyone else may survive? Why is everyone else better than I am? It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

One more thing...I don't understand how you can live and be happy when you "hold yourself in contempt." That is very sad.

[the Asocial Ape]

...

Why are you so fanatical about people living for others? Why do I have to suffer so that everyone else may survive? Why is everyone else better than I am? It's absolutely ridiculous.

you know? i just wrote a long thing continuing to explain myself, but it's pointless.

 

here's the thing skittles - don't concern yourself with it.

 

i care about others. ponder that. it can be like an LA koan for you, ok?

[Guest]

If everyone lived for themselves and only damaged themselves this wouldn't be a big deal, but when it effects millions of animals/including people, and the environment people need to think about others at least to the point of not damaging them.

[Matt]

Excellent discussion. I've been involved with local peace and civil rights issues over the past 15 years and my views have changed quite a bit over time. I won't go into what they were and what they are now, but every person needs to decide what's right for them and that is shaped by their experiences.

 

I picked this specific point from Asocial Ape that I think is a fundamental truism for me when I get "overwhelmed" with how I see the world and how I want to change it:

 

in my ideal world, we each do as much as we can, every day to diminish our impact, and to offer succor and safety to the innocent.

 

Doing something, rather than nothing, is always a great starting point. Deciding what you *can* do, rather than what you should do, was a liberating thought for me. My first responsibility is to my family and to make sure they are cared for and nurtured. This has taken 98% if my free time (i.e. away from work), and deciding how to spend my time on issues has been trying. In the end, I prioritized, made some choices, wrote them down, and made peace with them. I'll review in 6 months and see if they need to change.

 

In short, if you are overwhelmed, take one achievable step in the direction you thing will make positive change, and stick with it.

[veggieprincess]

Excellent discussion. I've been involved with local peace and civil rights issues over the past 15 years and my views have changed quite a bit over time. I won't go into what they were and what they are now, but every person needs to decide what's right for them and that is shaped by their experiences.

 

I picked this specific point from Asocial Ape that I think is a fundamental truism for me when I get "overwhelmed" with how I see the world and how I want to change it:

 

in my ideal world, we each do as much as we can, every day to diminish our impact, and to offer succor and safety to the innocent.

 

Doing something, rather than nothing, is always a great starting point. Deciding what you *can* do, rather than what you should do, was a liberating thought for me. My first responsibility is to my family and to make sure they are cared for and nurtured. This has taken 98% if my free time (i.e. away from work), and deciding how to spend my time on issues has been trying. In the end, I prioritized, made some choices, wrote them down, and made peace with them. I'll review in 6 months and see if they need to change.

 

In short, if you are overwhelmed, take one achievable step in the direction you thing will make positive change, and stick with it.

 

I really appreciate you putting a positive spin on a thread that was starting to have a negative tone!

 

The world could do with more people who are able to master this skill!!!! Thanks Matt

[dontxhide]

Thank you also Matt. This was more like an answer I was looking for.

 

I have been thinking about this a lot since I posted this and have come to conclusions. If people are angry at me because I dont do enough, then its their problem. I volunteer at an animal rescue and talk to people about being vegan. Right now that is the best I can do under my time constraints and circumstances. If I have time and the protest is something I can truly get behind and feel its the right thing to do, I will do it.

 

If people think I am a poseur for this, then they just have a different view and a different life to live completely apart from mine.

 

Thanks for everyones help! All your wisdom helped me come to certain conclusions about things.

[the Asocial Ape]

sorry, but "feel good! whatever you do is enough!" answers are bullshit.

 

THEY ARE TORTURING OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO DEATH BY THE BILLIONS.

 

eating tofu instead of steak, and saying it's enough is total hypocrisy. if someone doesn't care about animals, and says as much, so be it. he'll be in the courts after the revolution. but saying you give a shit, while you drive past a slaughterhouse, circus, or hungry cat is just being a liar.

 

at least have the balls to admit that hanging out watching tv, or goingto the gym is more important to you than taking a stand for animals.

 

admit that your iphone is more important to you than the 600 dollars worth of battery hens you could have saved and given to a farm sanctuary.

 

i'm drinking a beer right now. it cost 1.17 including tax. the drug effect of the beer is more important to me than the 1.17 worth of food it could have bought the wildlife at St. Francis wildlife rehab. at least i admit it. i'm not acting as though i do enough. i don't. AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE WHO JUST EATS VEGAN, AND NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE TELL EACH OTHER THEY ARE, YOU'RE ALL JUST JACKING EACH OTHER OFF, and our kin are still dying while you pat each other on the back.

[Matt]

sorry, but "feel good! whatever you do is enough!" answers are bullshit.

No one said what they are doing is enough. The crux of this topic as I see it is that individuals are feeling guilty about not being able to do more. I would expect compassionate individuals to respect others' decisions in this respect. Additionally, no one needs to admit or justify their actions. That's their business.

 

Oh, and I don't own an iPhone.

[VeganEssentials]

Nobody can ever truly "do enough", and we can always give more time, more money, more effort...but rarely do we go all-out in anything to the utmost we can make of it. However, everyone doing SOMETHING in the right direction is better than doing NOTHING, so I have respect for people who make a move for the positive, even if they're not devoting their lives to the cause. Any time someone looks down on others because they believe they're not "doing enough" makes for an aire of superoirty on one side, and to me, that doesn't accomplish anything positive. If you feel that your life is for the cause of AR, then by all means, devote everything you have to it, but it needs to be understood that not everyone else will do so. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to meet a set standard for what they should/must give to be "legit" in the movement, and that kind of attitude has driven a LOT of people away from it. I've spoken with quite a few people who don't get more involved in AR simply because they're intimidated by the attitudes of those who tend to accuse others of being less-than-devoted if they don't put forth the time and effort as dictated by the more "hardcore" members of groups. I can't stand that kind of attitude in the AR movement when people get that way - fortunately I don't see it too often, but I've met my share of people who were 100% behind their devotion to the point where they honestly looked down on anyone who did not do the same. We don't need infighting, we don't need any sort of attitude in the movement - if it is for the animals, we need to do what we can, be happy with what we do, encourage others kindly to do what they can, and check our ego at the door for holding judgement against others simply because they do not do exactly what we'd like.

 

The most important and effective people I've met in the AR movement have been the kindest, least-judgemental individuals I've met. Having an attitude to where you expect the most from people tends to only attract those who are in the same mindset and drive away others who don't have the same amount of time/money/desire/etc. to meet some sort of perceived standard. I know I'm driven away from people who inflict their standards on others and judge them by it, be it in the movement or other areas of life. I can guarantee many other effective people who in due time can become effective in fighting for the sake of the animals may be driven away by this kind of attitude before they become involved enough to make their mark.

 

I have devoted my life to working to promote veganism - I do it as my business, I do it when I can outside of work, but I'm sure by someone's standard I'm not doing enough. Do I feel guilty about it? Hell no. Do I look down on someone who does only a fraction of what I do? Of course not. We're all in this together, and the powers that be of whom we're fighting love nothing more than to see us get into arguments over foolish reasons. Let's work together for the greater good and spend less time worrying about what the other person is doing, because not a single animal is saved by getting angry over someone else not meeting your standards and expectations.

[skittles888]

Good point, do what you think is enough and feel good about yourself doing it. What is the point otherwise?