U.S. Politics thread

[Guest]

I think gay Americans need to focus on gay marriage. There are enough liberal people that the small percentage of open gay Americans won't make a big difference fighting for all the other causes they believe in...plus they don't even all agree on things...there are gay republicans after all. After all...lots of people fight for many issues that aren't related to gay people...and not quite enough of them are speaking out for gay people so gay people have to take it upon themselves to get things done. I wish it weren't that way but it is.

I've actually done a few protests against the "don't ask don't tell" policy, and a few gay marriage rallies and the people that saw me there said they had no idea that I was gay. And these are people that are for gay marriage. Gay people really need more straight people on their side and until more are around to help they've gotta be selfish and focus on their own agenda...at least for now. Beside that though...its not like there aren't gay politically minded people that are out there campaigning for every idea you can think of.

[xveganjoshx]

I support gay marriage. I am economically and politically very conservative, and also socially progressive. It's not an oxymoron, it is perfectly compatible, if you understand politics.

I have a very good understanding of politics, actually. Being socially conservative and progressive IS an oxymoron.

 

I agree. Although, I said I was economically and politically conservative, and socially progressive. I didn't say anything about being socially conservative. I'm not. Yes it bothers me that many of the conservatives I talk to are also social conservatives. It's a shame, but everybody is entitled to their views, even if myself or you don't agree with it.

 

I also don't see anything incompatible about having a belief in a secure border, a fiscally responsible spending policy, a strong military, constitutional policies (yes I always was against the patriot act and always will be, but it's not a conservative policy anyway) and equality for all different walks of life within our country (the socially progressive part).

 

My biggest problem with the homosexual agenda and their activism is that they are largely single issue activists. All they care about in this election is getting their gay marriage, they do not care about any other issues which might affect the direction of america more greatly. So of course they will vote for a socialist like Obama, even though surely he won't do anything positive for homosexuals, and will likely do very harmful things to our border and our war efforts (IMO). This is very bad. The gay mafia needs to look at the bigger picture, and quit being single issue activists. Categorizing the "right" into one group is a moronic and overly simplistic way of looking at things.

I've read this paragraph over and over again, and I still have yet to pick my jaw up off of the floor and reel my tongue back in. Do you honestly think equal rights is something that all humans don't deserve?

Please do not put words in my mouth or imply that I said those things. I never said that. In fact I believe very much the opposite.

I'll tell you a little about the "homosexual agenda". My homosexual agenda is as follows: I want the government to stay the hell out of my bedroom! I want the right to be able to marry who I love, and spend my life with the person that I've fallen in love with. I want to be able to live my life without fear of being fired or discriminated against at work because of who I am. I want to be able to live in a society where people who are gay are not subjected to hatred and violence like Matthew Shepard experienced some years back. I want to be able to live my life without fear of being KILLED by some zealous bigot who seems to think that I'm going to destroy his heterosexual marriage by having civil liberties of my own!

I agree with you.

 

I am also a mixed race brown person. This has had negative ramifications, especially the threat of violence on the behalf of my skin color and also actual violence which I have been the target of. It's a very complicated dynamic, so don't call out Zack or anyone else without knowing their history of what they've been a victim of/ privileged too.

You of all people, being a mixed-race brown person should know what it feels like to be on the short-end of the power hierarchy. You also worry about the threat of violence against you, and actual violence that you've been a target of. I've also experienced violence for having been identified as "the faggot" or "the queer" throughout my life. You of all people should understand what that violence and hatred feels like, though you'll never quite understand what it's like to be a gay person. You're certainly in a better position to understand what the power struggle is like, instead of casually discounting a minority's struggles, like you've done here.

 

I never casually discounted it. What I was saying here, is what really bothered me, which is YOUR eagerness to discount anyone just because they are white, heterosexual, etc. Like my friend Zack. This is what I mean by playing the card. It's demonizing people who happen to be members of certain privileged groups while not recognizing the fact that not only are they likely unprivileged in other regards but that they may also be on your side too. Just because I'm heterosexual doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to your struggles and it doesn't mean that I'm not working on my end here to end gay bashing and other nonsense. But calling people out for being heterosexual like your doing would not make it seem so.

 

Because this is a vegan forum, I'd expect people who are empathetic toward animal suffering to experience empathy toward HUMAN suffering as well. Racism causes human suffering. you really honestly believe that it's okay to defend racism?

Again, looking way out of context about the Mccain thing and also putting words in my mouth. Not cool. Neither is racism.

 

LETS KEEP THE CONVERSATION ON TOPIC AND NOT PERSONAL. The world is very complex and things need to be criticized, but we can only criticize them if we have a discussion, not a shit flinging match. Peace.

Dude, you said it. It became personal when you lumped me into a group of "single issue voters", and somehow likened me to the "gay mafia".

My bad about putting you in the group of single issue voters. I'm not sure if you are or not, so it wasn't fair to say that, but I am concerned about people who are willing to throw critical issues like border security or the war on terror to the wind if they get the single issue they want.

[Guest]

I wouldn't really say thats not an important issue. If you were a 85yr old gay man that wanted be be married before you died I think you'd find that would be a very important issue to you. Its something gay people can fight for and win for once. Its also something that should be common sense and I think most people will see that if we keep fighting. The border issue is something that most people are and will be on the same side for eternity.

[offense74]

I know people like magnus and myself take offense to the lumping of vegans into several (traditionally left or far left) activist groups.

Exactly. We can agree on the problems but not always on the solutions.

As I see it there is now a growing group of plant eaters that are separating themselves from the traditional vegan group and tries different ways of building a better world than the conservatist vegans.

The future will tell which group has the best outcome.

[tatman6006]

All that I can say is that I feel like I've stepped into some weird parallel universe, where common sense is trumped by "ooh look over here -- something shiny!!!"

 

At the risk of not going back and forth with just one person, and having page after page of "tatman6006 said" and "x" said, I'm just going to start over here.

 

Back to the original point. McCain called a group of people GOOKS. The word GOOKS is a racial slur. It applies not only to the people who tortured McCain, but rather a WHOLE RACE of people alongside those who tortured McCain. To defend RACISM is wrong, and it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you fall under.

 

Now on to the "gay" card that I've appartently "played". I'll say this, because I'm not going to name names, but if you're a white, heterosexual, male, of moderate to high income who lives in the United States, it makes it difficult to see your privilege when dealing with others who are of less privilege than you. It also makes you desensitized to their lack of privilege and their struggle to merely reach the same level as you. Calling someone a GOOK or say a faggot, when you're a white, heterosexual, male may be a lot easier when you're removed from the struggles that the "gook" or the "faggot" experience. That was my intent, to show how privilege can make someone blind to the experiences and hardships of others.

 

I also find it amazing that so far, the original point has been skirted this long. John McCain used a racial slur, and people have managed to skirt this issue over and over by sidetracking and threadjacking. I still hear people saying "I support McCain" even after his blatantly racist statements. I'm challenging that and saying "Look, this guy is a racist, he's using racist terminology to describe a WHOLE RACE of people, not just the people that tortured him and his buddies -- this is wrong!", and it's just not getting through.

 

Yes, gay EQUALITY is important to me, as is ALL equality. If you're having problems seeing the struggles of another group of people, perhaps it's your privilege that's getting in the way. Once you learn to put your privilege aside, it's a whole lot easier to empathize with others.

[CollegeB]

Surprise, surprise Josh aint the only one, i'm Economically conservative and socially liberal (libertarian) as well. I say as long as government is involved in marriage EVERYONE should be able to marry.

[xveganjoshx]

I say as long as government is involved in marriage EVERYONE should be able to marry.

I agree. Really I don't think the government should be involved in our social institutions and practices at all. I believe the purpose of government and laws is to provide an infrastructure where society can flourish, not an infrastructure that controls every aspect of a society.

[CollegeB]

Same here.

[Guest]

Another big thing with the gay marriage issue is that if the govt. were to outlaw gay marriage that actually takes away the right of a church to do what they want. So of course a church couldn't marry a gay couple even if they wanted to do so. This is in spite of the fact that people want to protect religions laws. Personally I hate the fact that gay people can't get married but at the same time I don't want to make it mandatory for a church to do it. Its their right to be as noninclusive as they want as an organization. People get to chose to be a part of it. But some churches would allow gay marriage and I'd like to think people would sway that way...especially straight Christians for gay marriage. And eventually numbers at the anti gay churches would shrink and they'd lose power or they'd need to change which is a good thing.

 

***Oh...and John McCain is a racist

[CollegeB]

Thanks for getting us back on point potter