U.S. Politics thread

[tatman6006]

To make it stink a little more i've been reading that mcCain has said some racist things...

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL

 

 

I don't blame him. Mccain has my respect.

 

Wow... I know that I haven't been here long and all... but I find it really amazing that a VEGAN could defend racism?!

 

Calling someone a racial slur is never appropriate... especially when you're vying for a position that requires the utmost diplomacy...

 

Amazing!

[Zack]

To make it stink a little more i've been reading that mcCain has said some racist things...

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL

 

 

I don't blame him. Mccain has my respect.

 

Wow... I know that I haven't been here long and all... but I find it really amazing that a VEGAN could defend racism?!

 

 

Lets see you get tortured for 5 YEARS and see what you think after that.

[CollegeB]

That is McCain's defense. I have also read about him actually cooperating with the commies that were holding him, this is not very strange in traumatic captive situations. That offends some really pro america folks, others see it as a reason for his lean to the left. But you gotta do what you must to survive in a prison camp. I'd probably hold a grudge against those guys too.

[xveganjoshx]

To make it stink a little more i've been reading that mcCain has said some racist things...

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL

 

 

I don't blame him. Mccain has my respect.

 

Wow... I know that I haven't been here long and all... but I find it really amazing that a VEGAN could defend racism?!

 

 

Lets see you get tortured for 5 YEARS and see what you think after that.

 

++.

Super agreed.

Mccain is cool in my book. I just wish he was MORE politically and economically conservative. He's pretty socially moderate so all you hippies can chill.

[Guest]

There's no excuse for that...I don't know many Jews that say I hate Germans...there are too many good Vietnamese and too many good Germans to say something like that. Its uncalled for and a terrible excuse. My grandfather saw family tortured and murdered by the Japanese(he was shot in the ass when he was a kid by a Japanese soldier when he was walking too slow in a line)...I've never heard him say anything negative about them as a whole people...only the assholes that did that to him and his family.

[Zack]

.only the assholes that did that to him and his family.

 

That's exactly what mccain stated.

 

"I was referring to my prison guards," McCain said, "and I will continue to refer to them in language that might offend some people because of the beating and torture of my friends."

[Guest]

Maybe the term GOOKS is offensive to all Vietnamese people. I don't think many would approve of using the "N" word for a person who assaulted you...it would offend everyone....and I doubt McCain would use that word either. In certain instances a double standard is allowed and its sick.

[tatman6006]

Maybe the term GOOKS is offensive to all Vietnamese people. I don't think many would approve of using the "N" word for a person who assaulted you...it would offend everyone....and I doubt McCain would use that word either. In certain instances a double standard is allowed and its sick.

 

Word. Using a racial slur that is offensive to a whole race of people just because a couple of them tortured you is STILL racist!

 

Do we STILL use racial slurs against Japanese people because they bombed pearl harbor? How about only the Japanese that actively participated in the bombing?

 

It's flawed logic, any way you look at it, and it's crazy to applaud racism -- especially applauding someone who's running for president, AND an unapologetic racist!

[Zack]

 

Word. Using a racial slur that is offensive to a whole race of people just because a couple of them tortured you is STILL racist!

 

Do we STILL use racial slurs against Japanese people because they bombed pearl harbor? How about only the Japanese that actively participated in the bombing?

 

It's flawed logic, any way you look at it, and it's crazy to applaud racism -- especially applauding someone who's running for president, AND an unapologetic racist!

 

Did they apologize to him for what they did to him? Unlikely.

 

Go experience that for 5 years and see how kind you are feeling afterwards.

 

Thanks to people like him you have the luxury to say that.

 

Also, Once again he stated that it was only intended for the group that tortured him and his fellow soldiers.

[VeganDude]

People actually like McCain?

[VeganDude]

 

Did they apologize to him for what they did to him? Unlikely.

 

Go experience that for 5 years and see how kind you are feeling afterwards.

 

Thanks to people like him you have the luxury to say that.

 

Also, Once again he stated that it was only intended for the group that tortured him and his fellow soldiers.

 

Strange logic..

So I invade a county, get hurt in the process and I'm the victim?

I can't believe some of the things I'm reading in this thread.

[tatman6006]

 

Word. Using a racial slur that is offensive to a whole race of people just because a couple of them tortured you is STILL racist!

 

Do we STILL use racial slurs against Japanese people because they bombed pearl harbor? How about only the Japanese that actively participated in the bombing?

 

It's flawed logic, any way you look at it, and it's crazy to applaud racism -- especially applauding someone who's running for president, AND an unapologetic racist!

 

Did they apologize to him for what they did to him? Unlikely.

 

Go experience that for 5 years and see how kind you are feeling afterwards.

 

Thanks to people like him you have the luxury to say that.

 

Also, Once again he stated that it was only intended for the group that tortured him and his fellow soldiers.

 

So assuming the same "logic" follows... Say you're gunned down by a group of black men (assuming you're white), is it therefore okay to use a derogatory racial slur (the "N" word) to describe that group of men, but only that group of men, meanwhile, the "N" word is hurtful and offensive to the rest of a race of people? But it's okay, because a group of them hurt you? Is that what I'm hearing?

 

Take it one step further -- Say that you're running for president, and you are the guy who got gunned down by a group of black men, and survived... do you unapologetically call them the "N" word, even though part of your potential constituency consists of black people -- and then say "It's okay, I only mean it toward the people who shot at me". ??

 

What I'm saying is -- It's not okay to make exceptions for when it's okay and when it's not okay to be a racist. Individuals may harm you, but a whole race of people is not responsible for the actions of individuals.

[tatman6006]

Thanks to people like him you have the luxury to say that.

 

Actually, thanks to the founding fathers who wrote the constitution that I have the luxury to say that.

 

Strangely enough, John McCain is running as a Republican, and the Republican administration over the last 8 years has done more to rape the constitution than any administration before it... hmmm... interesting...

 

And yet I should thank John McCain for my freedom of speech?

[Guest]

 

Did they apologize to him for what they did to him? Unlikely.

 

Go experience that for 5 years and see how kind you are feeling afterwards.

 

Thanks to people like him you have the luxury to say that.

 

Also, Once again he stated that it was only intended for the group that tortured him and his fellow soldiers.

 

They didn't apologize but I bet you the rest of the Vietnamese are sorry. Just like the way Germans are apologetic to Jews. Sure many of the ex Nazis don't give a crap but pretty much every German absolutely hatest that part of history and it will be a black eye on Germany until the end of time.

As for thanking McCain I wouldn't really go that far. He was more good for morale of other soldiers than us. After all...we lost that war and we haven't been attacked by the Vietnamese since so I don't think he provided us with any luxuries...its no different that us not getting attacked by Iraqis.

As for what he said later...it doesn't matter. He needs a work only for torturers then. He shouldn't use a derogatory word thats a general offensive word used for a whole nation. I have no problem with derogatory language but it needs to be specific to the guilty...not to tens of millions. Especially since there were way more Vietnamese fighting and dying alongside Americans/French than there were Americans...it makes the number of Americans that died look minuscule.

[xveganjoshx]

As for thanking McCain I wouldn't really go that far. He was more good for morale of other soldiers than us.

 

Even if he was "more good" for his fellow soldiers instead of for us (I point I would dispute anyway) isn't it enough to support your fellow soldiers? Ones that are out there dying and sacrificing themselves to secure the liberties that we enjoy today? Even if you don't agree with the war, you need to respect the sacrifice that others are making on our behalf. I'm so sick of liberals having no respect for and spewing nonsense about our armed forces.

After all...we lost that war and we haven't been attacked by the Vietnamese since so I don't think he provided us with any luxuries...its no different that us not getting attacked by Iraqis.

We didn't get attacked by the Iraqis? Really? Because I'm pretty sure the major consesus is that we were attacked by militiant Islamist jihadists, and iraq, afghanistan, and the areas around them are breeding grounds for militiants islamic terror groups. We DID get attacked by the Iraqis. And if you think the government executed 9/11, or some other conspiracy theory, don't even bother responding to this post, you lose anyway.

[VeganDude]

isn't it enough to support your fellow soldiers? Ones that are out there dying and sacrificing themselves to secure the liberties that we enjoy today? Even if you don't agree with the war, you need to respect the sacrifice that others are making on our behalf. I'm so sick of liberals having no respect for and spewing nonsense about our armed forces.

You really think the war is to secure liberties that you enjoy?

O boy...

So exactly what liberties do you think they are securing for you?

And if it is, you thing it's ok to do what the US is doing to secure YOUR liberties??

 

We didn't get attacked by the Iraqis? Really? Because I'm pretty sure the major consesus is that we were attacked by militiant Islamist jihadists, and iraq, afghanistan, and the areas around them are breeding grounds for militiants islamic terror groups. We DID get attacked by the Iraqis. And if you think the government executed 9/11, or some other conspiracy theory, don't even bother responding to this post, you lose anyway.

You did not get attacked by any country, you got attacked by some terrorist group. Not a country.

Also it's the US that created/supported groups like the taliban.

 

Why does the US think it has the right to go to war whenever they feel like it, you know the war in Iraq is illegal? It's against international agreements.

 

I wonder if they are ever gonna learn, every war it's the same story all over again...

[tatman6006]

We didn't get attacked by the Iraqis? Really? Because I'm pretty sure the major consesus is that we were attacked by militiant Islamist jihadists, and iraq, afghanistan, and the areas around them are breeding grounds for militiants islamic terror groups. We DID get attacked by the Iraqis. And if you think the government executed 9/11, or some other conspiracy theory, don't even bother responding to this post, you lose anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure the major consensus is that the Republican regime were scared of Iraq, and had to use this war as a scapegoat to finish Bush #1's unfinished business, and disarm the country that we ARMED during the Reagan years. 9/11 Was just a convenient excuse. Whoops! And since when do Militant Islamist Jihadists come just from Iraq? From the "Militant Islamist Jihadist Iraqi Training Camp?". I think everyone knows that it's wayyy more complex than that.

 

As a side note, I never expected to be greeted with right-wing propaganda on a vegan message board. We pride ourselves on being so compassionate every day in our lives, yet there are people here spouting off right-wing neo-conservative ideology which has done nothing but oppress and condemn people. It's hard to believe.

[VeganDude]

As a side note, I never expected to be greeted with right-wing propaganda on a vegan message board. We pride ourselves on being so compassionate every day in our lives, yet there are people here spouting off right-wing neo-conservative ideology which has done nothing but oppress and condemn people. It's hard to believe.

+1

[Zack]

 

As a side note, I never expected to be greeted with right-wing propaganda on a vegan message board. We pride ourselves on being so compassionate every day in our lives, yet there are people here spouting off right-wing neo-conservative ideology which has done nothing but oppress and condemn people. It's hard to believe.

 

Hmm...

 

It's not compassionate to liberate a people oppressed by their dictator?

 

http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

 

Go there, download chapters 1 2 3 and 4 watch them, then tell me that it was "not compassionate"

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PmvBWSiANGM&feature=related

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TaROPNSQuIs

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ud_zTeM-RxY&feature=related

 

Watch these, maybe it'll do you some good.

 

 

I find that much more compassionate than being a liberal that complains anytime they have a small inconvenience that affects them, while other not so fortunate humans are suffering elsewhere. You, me, and everyone else are beyond spoiled in the States.

 

Please, give me an example of how right-wing "neo-cons" have done nothing but oppress?

Edited February 9, 2008 by Zack

[tatman6006]

 

It's not compassionate to liberate a people oppressed by their dictator?

 

Please, give me an example of how right-wing "neo-cons" have done nothing but oppress?

 

I suppose if you consider invading a country that didn't attack you, and killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians "compassionately liberating them from their dictator", you'd have a point.

 

Interestingly enough, that "dictator" was the only thing that was keeping the Islamist factions from civil war, and the only thing keeping the Sunnis and the Shiites from starting civil war... whoops!

 

Ok, you asked for it.

 

How about the neo-con oppression of gays by government... using the gay card for political gain, meanwhile a group of people suffer inequality and injustice at the hands of their government?

 

Another is the oppression of the third-world countries which are being exploited at greater and greater frequency to provide natural resources for the United States to consume 1/3 of the world's energy supply. Environmental devastation, third world poverty, forced labor, and human exploitation have been the legacy of the "neo-conservative" regime.

 

Let's not forget about the animals either. The neo-conservative regime has advocated for absolutely zero change in our lifestyle. I believe Dick Cheney's quote was something like "The American people should have the right to continue to drive their SUV's and purchase cheap gasoline". Oil drilling, industrial pollution, decimation of wildlife refuges, etc. continue on for the cause of cheap oil, cheap manufacture of goods, etc., meanwhile the rest of the species on the planet pay the price. They're forced from their natural habitats which we destroy for our energy needs. The ocean is a toxic soup of oil slick and plastic.. and for what? And you think that this isn't oppression?

 

And you still want to question that the right is an oppressive regime?

[Zack]

 

It's not compassionate to liberate a people oppressed by their dictator?

 

Please, give me an example of how right-wing "neo-cons" have done nothing but oppress?

 

I suppose if you consider invading a country that didn't attack you, and killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians "compassionately liberating them from their dictator", you'd have a point.

 

Interestingly enough, that "dictator" was the only thing that was keeping the Islamist factions from civil war, and the only thing keeping the Sunnis and the Shiites from starting civil war... whoops!

 

Ok, you asked for it.

 

How about the neo-con oppression of gays by government... using the gay card for political gain, meanwhile a group of people suffer inequality and injustice at the hands of their government?

 

Another is the oppression of the third-world countries which are being exploited at greater and greater frequency to provide natural resources for the United States to consume 1/3 of the world's energy supply. Environmental devastation, third world poverty, forced labor, and human exploitation have been the legacy of the "neo-conservative" regime.

 

Let's not forget about the animals either. The neo-conservative regime has advocated for absolutely zero change in our lifestyle. I believe Dick Cheney's quote was something like "The American people should have the right to continue to drive their SUV's and purchase cheap gasoline". Oil drilling, industrial pollution, decimation of wildlife refuges, etc. continue on for the cause of cheap oil, cheap manufacture of goods, etc., meanwhile the rest of the species on the planet pay the price. They're forced from their natural habitats which we destroy for our energy needs. The ocean is a toxic soup of oil slick and plastic.. and for what? And you think that this isn't oppression?

 

And you still want to question that the right is an oppressive regime?

 

I'm not even going to respond to most of this because:

 

It's not the governments fault. Supply & Demand. Even these claims of yours are exaggerated, but still..it's a result of the actions of people that cause this not "the oppressive right wing regime."

 

"Environmental devastation, third world poverty, forced labor, and human exploitation have been the legacy of the "neo-conservative" regime."

 

That has nothing to do with right or left... It's the people of civilized nations that cause this, not the government.

 

[tatman6006]

And you think your government has nothing to do with supply and demand? You think the subsidies that are paid to corporations to further supply and demand don't come from government entities? You're horribly mistaken.

 

You don't think the Bush family is an OIL family? You don't see how the neo-conservative movement and the oil industry go hand-in-hand? You don't understand how they've effectively stopped any alternative energy infrastructure from being developed, all in the name of oil profiteering? Do you think that the Kyoto protocol was something that SHOULD have been disregarded by our neo-conservative government?

 

As for sounding oppressed, I like to think of myself as a realist. On the other hand, as a gay man living in the United States -- I can attest to the oppression that's felt among my peers.

 

Sometimes when you're living life as a a heterosexual, white, male, American, it's hard to see your automatic privilege.

 

Perhaps the only thing I do agree with you on is the part about us being "spoiled". The American people are spoiled indeed... we've got the rest of the world's blood on our hands, and change needs to begin at the highest levels of government to stop this from happening.

 

You call it supply and demand, I call it the spoils of capitalism.

[xveganjoshx]

 

Ok, you asked for it.

 

How about the neo-con oppression of gays by government... using the gay card for political gain, meanwhile a group of people suffer inequality and injustice at the hands of their government?

 

Somewhat off topic, but because your going to play the gay card it needs to be addressed.

I support gay marriage. I am economically and politically very conservative, and also socially progressive. It's not an oxymoron, it is perfectly compatible, if you understand politics.

My biggest problem with the homosexual agenda and their activism is that they are largely single issue activists. All they care about in this election is getting their gay marriage, they do not care about any other issues which might affect the direction of america more greatly. So of course they will vote for a socialist like Obama, even though surely he won't do anything positive for homosexuals, and will likely do very harmful things to our border and our war efforts (IMO). This is very bad. The gay mafia needs to look at the bigger picture, and quit being single issue activists. Categorizing the "right" into one group is a moronic and overly simplistic way of looking at things.

 

Playing the oppressed gay card, especially overplaying it, is a problem. We all have characteristics that give us privilege, and characteristics that tend to oppress us. For example, I carry an fair amount of class privilege and also am a male. This doesn't stop me from criticizing capitalism and patriarchy, but I HAVE to keep it in perspective. I am also a mixed race brown person. This has had negative ramifications, especially the threat of violence on the behalf of my skin color and also actual violence which I have been the target of. It's a very complicated dynamic, so don't call out Zack or anyone else without knowing their history of what they've been a victim of/ privileged too.

 

Also Tatman, one more thing- just because this is a vegan forum don't expect everyone to spout off the same political/economic or even social views. I know people like magnus and myself take offense to the lumping of vegans into several (traditionally left or far left) activist groups. Just because we eat plants don't expect us to do this or that. It is a particularly simplistic and insulting way of looking at things.

 

LETS KEEP THE CONVERSATION ON TOPIC AND NOT PERSONAL. The world is very complex and things need to be criticized, but we can only criticize them if we have a discussion, not a shit flinging match. Peace.

[tatman6006]

Somewhat off topic, but because your going to play the gay card it needs to be addressed.

 

I play the gay card, because I am gay. It's an inextricable part of who I am, and as a gay person living in a society that regularly oppresses gay people, I feel that I have every right to speak out on an issue that the neo-conservatives have used as a hot-button issue, time and time again. We've been demonized, ostracized, and publicly dehumanized in the name of dirty politics. I am a gay married man who plain and simple, does not share the same civil rights that are afforded to heterosexual people. My marriage isn't even recognized in my own country!

 

I support gay marriage. I am economically and politically very conservative, and also socially progressive. It's not an oxymoron, it is perfectly compatible, if you understand politics.

 

I have a very good understanding of politics, actually. Being socially conservative and progressive IS an oxymoron. Social conservatism shies away from change. Progressives seek change. You're one or the other, but not both.

 

My biggest problem with the homosexual agenda and their activism is that they are largely single issue activists. All they care about in this election is getting their gay marriage, they do not care about any other issues which might affect the direction of america more greatly. So of course they will vote for a socialist like Obama, even though surely he won't do anything positive for homosexuals, and will likely do very harmful things to our border and our war efforts (IMO). This is very bad. The gay mafia needs to look at the bigger picture, and quit being single issue activists. Categorizing the "right" into one group is a moronic and overly simplistic way of looking at things.

 

I've read this paragraph over and over again, and I still have yet to pick my jaw up off of the floor and reel my tongue back in. Do you honestly think equal rights is something that all humans don't deserve?

 

I'll tell you a little about the "homosexual agenda". My homosexual agenda is as follows: I want the government to stay the hell out of my bedroom! I want the right to be able to marry who I love, and spend my life with the person that I've fallen in love with. I want to be able to live my life without fear of being fired or discriminated against at work because of who I am. I want to be able to live in a society where people who are gay are not subjected to hatred and violence like Matthew Shepard experienced some years back. I want to be able to live my life without fear of being KILLED by some zealous bigot who seems to think that I'm going to destroy his heterosexual marriage by having civil liberties of my own! Do you honestly think that I'm "overplaying the problem" here? For someone who claims to understand what's going on, you've certainly shown that you really have no idea what issues gay people face on a regular basis. It's THAT important because it's MY LIFE!

 

Playing the oppressed gay card, especially overplaying it, is a problem. We all have characteristics that give us privilege, and characteristics that tend to oppress us. For example, I carry an fair amount of class privilege and also am a male. This doesn't stop me from criticizing capitalism and patriarchy, but I HAVE to keep it in perspective.

 

Please see the above paragraph that I wrote if you think that I'm really playing an "oppressed gay card", again, you're casually discounting my LIFE EXPERIENCE, of which you have no understanding, being a heterosexual male.

 

I am also a mixed race brown person. This has had negative ramifications, especially the threat of violence on the behalf of my skin color and also actual violence which I have been the target of. It's a very complicated dynamic, so don't call out Zack or anyone else without knowing their history of what they've been a victim of/ privileged too.

 

You of all people, being a mixed-race brown person should know what it feels like to be on the short-end of the power hierarchy. You also worry about the threat of violence against you, and actual violence that you've been a target of. I've also experienced violence for having been identified as "the faggot" or "the queer" throughout my life. You of all people should understand what that violence and hatred feels like, though you'll never quite understand what it's like to be a gay person. You're certainly in a better position to understand what the power struggle is like, instead of casually discounting a minority's struggles, like you've done here.

 

Also Tatman, one more thing- just because this is a vegan forum don't expect everyone to spout off the same political/economic or even social views. I know people like magnus and myself take offense to the lumping of vegans into several (traditionally left or far left) activist groups. Just because we eat plants don't expect us to do this or that. It is a particularly simplistic and insulting way of looking at things.

 

Because this is a vegan forum, I'd expect people who are empathetic toward animal suffering to experience empathy toward HUMAN suffering as well. Racism causes human suffering. you really honestly believe that it's okay to defend racism?

 

LETS KEEP THE CONVERSATION ON TOPIC AND NOT PERSONAL. The world is very complex and things need to be criticized, but we can only criticize them if we have a discussion, not a shit flinging match. Peace.

 

Dude, you said it. It became personal when you lumped me into a group of "single issue voters", and somehow likened me to the "gay mafia". I openly criticized racism on a vegan message board. If that's the "shit-flinging" that you're speaking of, then so be it. Come on dude! Think.

 

As a side-note, you may want to speak to a few more gay people if you really want to get a better understanding of gay power struggles in American society. If you really want to hear some of my experiences, I'd be glad to share, but the gross generalizations have to stop. I hold no grudges, but honestly dude, that was way out of line. Peace, indeed.

[hsorlando]

I don't know why, but I actually feel bad for Romney pulling out. Of course he probably saw the writing on the wall,and wanted to save himself a lot of money and time.