steroids part II

[tomato]

People should learn the facts about steroids before they strongly oppose them. Ive been using them on and off for about ten years and I dont ever plan to stop! The health risks are virtually non existent if used properly. There is no evidence to support any ones death directly linked to steroids Thats right Lyle Alzados death had nothing to do with steroids do the research. I personally support their use and feel that the government should butt out of sports and steroid use and worry about real issues this country faces but thats just me

 

haven't used yet, but i will be within the next 6 months. i have done TONS of research on the subject. i used to be very much against them. now i have a much different opinion. my conclusions from the countless amount of info i have read is that:

 

-some steroids (deca, anavar, equipoise, low-dose test) are much safer than others (dianabol, mid-high level test, winstrol, tren).

-it is the abuse and not the mild use that can put people in danger.

-more top level vegan athletes have used them than you would have guessed. a much lower percentage than non-vegan athletes though.

-you still have to train and eat hard, but the results will come much more effectively while using.

-in my opinion, if no one is using, how can you say the field of play is level? some people hit the genetic lottery and if you're not one of them, you cannot compete with them no matter how hard you "naturally" train. PERIOD!

 

its your choice. do the research, make up your own mind. just don't believe all the crap the media says about the juice. if it is really that bad for someone, then why would they prescribe it to some of the most health deficient (cancer and aids patients, bless their hearts) persons alive. probably not the best argument to leave off with, but the idea is there.

[VeganEssentials]

People should learn the facts about steroids before they strongly oppose them. Ive been using them on and off for about ten years and I dont ever plan to stop! The health risks are virtually non existent if used properly. There is no evidence to support any ones death directly linked to steroids Thats right Lyle Alzados death had nothing to do with steroids do the research. I personally support their use and feel that the government should butt out of sports and steroid use and worry about real issues this country faces but thats just me

 

I wholeheartedly agree, too many people think that they're going to have terrible health problems from simply injecting one low-dose shot of testosterone and don't really know the facts, which bases a lot of opinions that aren't on the mark. People hear the horror stories that aren't always true or accurate (such as the Lyle Alzado story you mentioned, where it's still quite debatable as to how much of a role his juicing had in his final condition) and make their own conclusions without doing their homework, which is too bad because I think that if you're going to be opposed to something, you should know as much about the facts as you can.

 

However, I do still believe that, unless you've got a REALLY good reason for using (such as, being in a sports/bodybuilding field where it's the norm and anything less could cost you your position), I think that most people are using for the wrong reasons (read: excessive vanity and the inability to focus long enough to work to reach the goal in natural time). I mean, if you haven't been training hard and intelligently for a decade or more, you haven't even come close to reaching your natural potential, and some guy who's been lifting for 2 years has no business going on the stuff. Until I had to change my training up due to health related issues, I was making progress for many years - where I once thought I was destined originally to peak naturally in the mid 200s, I know that if I'd have kept training the way I was at my peak, I could have been a 300 lb. giant one day (I hit 285, which isn't that far off), all natural and all vegan. Knowing that I still had tons of natural potential left, it wouldn't have made any sense to go on the stuff - sure, it would have kicked me to my end goal faster, but at that time, it wouldn't have gained me anything that I wouldn't have been able to achieve in due time (at least, until I'd have cracked 300 lbs. - then I'm sure adding size would have gotten considerably tougher ) And, even if I had, what would it have truly accomplished me? I was getting strong, but I wouldn't have been able to make the grade in the strongman circuit compared to the freaks I was exposed to that were deadlifting 800+ lbs., getting 400+ lbs. overhead and heaving 420+ lb. stones on to 4' platforms like they were pebbles. When I realized that I was not going to do something lifting-realted for my profession, it wiped out that tiny bit in the back of my mind that always nagged of "How far COULD you go if you went on the juice for a few years?", because even though I had no intention, you're always left wondering those "what ifs" as to what the next level is like via chemical enhancement. Now it's a dead issue for me in every way - I've had 2 different docs both grill me if I'm juiced due to my size, insisting that I stay clean because there's a high chance that going on would make my vision disorder worse, so even if I wanted to now, I'd be the world's biggest idiot to compromise something essential for a little more size or strength. So, there ARE some risks for some people in using - just because you don't know about it today, does not mean that it can't come back and haunt you later on in life. It seems that the bulk of people I've met who have been juiced have two problems in common -

 

1. They buy their stuff online from sources where they don't REALLY know what they're getting as far as quality, purity, or that it's even what it claims to be, and

 

2. None of them were under the care of a physician who could monitor them regularly and make sure that there were no bad effects building up over time.

 

I say, if you're GOING to use, then use responsibly and only when it's something that will make or break a career in what you're pursuing. To me, simply trying to add a few lbs. to your lifts when you aren't competing is a waste of money one spends on the juice, and if someone's vain enough to think that it's the only way to look good to impress others, then that's kind of sad as well. Why on earth does some 20 year old need to put on 20 lbs. in 5 weeks when he could probably do it in a year or so if he trained hard and ate everything in sight? So he can try and look more impressive when he hits the club at the end of his cycle? So he can bench a few lbs. more for the time he's on, then freak out when he goes off cycle and is forced to deal with the drop in strength and size that almost everyone complains about? That's why so many people who go on, STAY on, because their ego can't accept the backslide that's coming with taking time off. While guys SHOULD be happy if they do a few cycles and add 40 lbs but lose 10-20% of their gains when they come off, they seem to go ballistic when those first 5 lbs. come off (which often tends to be water weight), and then they feel it necessary to go back on ASAP because they're frightened of how much more they'll lose. And, the cycle continues for too many, guys who are both vain and terrified to have to fight naturally to get back over a year or two for what they can recover in a matter of weeks with chemical enhancement.

 

But, this is getting long-winded, as it usually goes with my posts I do agree in the end, we should have the rights to do what we want with our bodies (if we can blacken our lungs with cigarettes and melt our livers via alcohol legally, why are steroids any worse?), but as with anything, I think that far fewer people should do such things because most don't have the mental capacity to handle the consequences of the action. I'm all for someone deciding to do a few cycles to push their limits if they're experienced athletes, have years and years of solid training under their belts, and are peaking naturally and showing potential to be at the top of the game if they were to try it. However, if it's just for the sake of having the male equivalent of collagen injections in one's lips and Botox in the forehead just to impress the opposite sex, then I think that money would be better off used for ANYTHING other than steriods, because silly vanity NEVER seems to make one's life better overall. But, that's just my thought - maybe there are a few guys out there who never had confidence until they went on and bulked up in a hurry and it changed their lives for the better. Me, I'm perfectly content to have developed my sense of security and self-value the way I did without having to spend a ton of cash on something that could potentially compromise my health (since there's always a chance), and I never had to look back and wonder how far I'd have gone without them. But, to each his/her own - we're going to do what we're going to do, but if you DO choose to juice, then just be safe about it, because you don't want to be that guy getting an abscess drained in the ER while being told you're lucky that you didn't lose your leg from infection due to a non-sterile injection...

[Nathan Nearing]

+1 Ryan. Solid post.

 

 

Unfortunately I think a lot of guys think you can't compete unless you're on the gear. Then again, it's not like I have examples to prove those people wrong...except

 

 

http://www.musclehack.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/jeff-willet.jpg

 

Jeff Willet. IFBB pro.

 

 

 

http://www.bodybuilders.com/lacour2.jpg

 

Skip La Cour. Natural bodybuilding advocate and Team Universe Heavyweight/Overall Men's Champion.

 

 

http://tm-mwgl.com/fullsize/t_faic02.jpg

 

Chris Faildo. IFBB pro.

 

 

http://www.fitnessatlantic.com/images/roncoleman1.jpg

 

And Ron Coleman (not Ronnie). Another natural bodybuilding spokesperson.

 

 

 

Tons of super big natural guys out there.

[xphilx]

please...

 

i don't think that anyone of those guys is natural. maybe if for them natural means that they didn't use any steroids while shooting those pics. mostly natural means for those kind of guys that they're off when it comes to testing.

 

 

another thing: i heard that every kind of roids is tested on animal before you can buy it. so that would mean that roids are not vegan. true?

[xjohanx]

Jeff Willet has been tested several times and came out clean as far as I know, but I also doubt that he doesn't use anything illegal. He doesn't have the Coleman-gut but his waist is def supcisiously big for being so ripped.

[Devils Plaything]

There are so many ways around drug testing... I've read somewhere that even a high intake of protein can push your metabolism towards flushing out indicators for drug use And you sometimes also find advertisements for drugs that clear you before drug testing..

I really doubt that any of those guys shown above is natural...

There was a guy on a german student network who always talked about natural bodybuilding, mocked guys who were on juice, made very angry comments about being accused of juicing.

A short time after that, a friend made me aware of his pics being published on a BB forum in a thread about pics of users of some drug... those were the exact same pics he posted in the natural BB group on the student network, only the eyes were blanked out

And that guy wasn't even that big...

Don't believe everything you read or hear

[Nathan Nearing]

I don't see the obsession with saying "dude he's totally on roids" especially in this context. Point is you don't need drugs to get strong. We don't know the history of these bodybuilders so don't be so quick to discredit their authenticity. Jeff could have easily avoided the drug issue and compete like anyone else. Why would a guy on the gear go out of his way to shoot down steroids?

 

To each their own though. I'm never donig steroids, even if they were proven to be 100% safe.

[xjohanx]

It's not so much an obsession of saying someone is taking steroids as it is to avoid feeding people a false reality. And no you don't need drugs to get strong, but you probably need them to get "that" strong.

[xphilx]

haha, c'mon. if steroids were 100% safe and legal of course everyone would use them. i mean, why not? i would be like taking creatine or protein powder just with better results.

[Octopussoir]

The saying where I grew up was "If you were 45 days clean it was considered natural." Some places say 3,5, and the one RC, Giac, and myself are doing is 7 years drug free. Balco Labs proved that there are chemicals people take to have the advantage. If youre an IFBB Pro its your job to take gear, eat, and compete. I talked to a guy years ago his name was Rick Phoenix and was pretty well known is Australia. He told me that most pro's dont even know what all they take. That they have a doc or someone come over and give them the injections without ever having to measure or dose anything out themselves. I was also informed that the big market supp companies give some of the pro's AAS and tell them that its Cell-Tech and Muscle-Tech that makes them that big.

 

On the local level, most people who do jab the needle do it for a certain time on ( called cycling) then take that same amount of time off to let their body rebound(usually in winter cause you can cover up all the time). Now with the pro's they dont come off! If they do it with another chemical and its not for long. Usually to let blood levels come to a "safer" level and then they get back on. You ever see the Cribs(i think its where it came from) with Jay Cutler in it? Youtube it and then pause when he opens his fridge. Look inside the door and you will see HgH bottles and probably insulin. I saw this years ago and used to laugh cause I dont think he realized what was being shown. Here's what I found:

 

[VeganEssentials]

After that video clip with the sorcery comments, all I can think about is Jay Cutler in a wizard's robe with a big pointy hat on his head, casting spells to bring the demons of anabolics into our dimension I find it pretty funny that he didn't manage to clean up his fridge before they came through, but anyone who had not known that he obviously does some illegal things to maintain his physique, well, they're either blind or ignorant.

 

That's what it takes to be a freak, and the sooner people come to realize it, the more we can move on and focus on important things and stop talking about the same things over and over. If you want to be natural, then be natural and try to be the best at it without giving a crap about what those on the juice are doing with themselves. There's no need to make excuses as too many people do - when those who are natural stop comparing themselves to those who aren't, we'll all get along better and focus on our own thing instead of complaining that so-and-so is "cheating". When people get all whiny about how they'll never make the Olympia natural, it's not anything new, so it does't bear complaining about. Nobody natural has taken the top honors in major competition where anything goes regarding what you put in your body in decades, so it's a dead issue - the freaks are here to stay, like them or not. There are plenty of natural divisions to compete in (such as the one that Octo, RC and L&G will be in), and while they may not have the same level of hype surrounding them, they're no less viable to prove your mettle against others on the same journey of doing it clean. I respect anyone who builds themselves up and gets on stage, natural or not, but of course, I'd rather see natural BBing any day as I've seen enough of the freaks over the past 15 years that they all begin to look the same to me after a while. I'd be much more impressed to watch our 3 guys competing add another 5-10 lbs. of rock solid muscle every year or two and see where they are in 5 years than someone get juiced up and add 50 lbs. in 2 years, but that's just me. Again, nothing against the guys that decide to use steroids, but for the costs and risks involved, is it REALLY worth it in the end when there are so few people who ever make it to the top?

 

BBing should take a lesson from the way powerlifting is headed - a sport that's been dominated by way too much supportive gear and bad judging is finally getting is comeuppance with a new movement for raw lifting and stricter judging, and I think that BB could stand to do the same type of thing in evening out the balance between juiced and natural. But, powerlifting is a sport with almost no money in it for incentive (if you don't love to do it for the sake of strength, you may as well quit because you won't make a living from sponsor money), and BBing still has opportunity for the massive freaks who reach the top to make some sort of living by getting your face out there enough from supplement sponsors. All we need is some corporate sponsorship that encourages natural training and actually ENFORCES it to be natural and perhaps we'll see a new shift, but so far, that's only a dream.

 

We're all after the same mission, to get bigger and stronger, so let's look at it as that first and foremost, regardless of opinion on steroids. We can complain all day that it's not fair, and that's correct, it's not a level playing field. However, there are plenty of fields to play on - if you don't like one arena, move on to one that's filled with like-minded people and have your fun there and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing. Complaining about steroids isn't going to make people stop using them, and it's not making you any bigger, faster or stronger yourself. Put that energy into improving yourself with the mission of making YOU the best person you can - if we spent more time working on ourselves and being less critical about what person X does with their own body (if it doesn't affect us directly, is it really any of our business?), we'd all get better results in what we're seeking to obtain

 

This isn't a criticism aimed at anyone directly, rather, the whole anti-steroid thing in general. I've seen/heard these arguments for so long, they've just gotten old and nothing is any different now than when I first started training. Either accept it or work to change it, but we don't get anywhere by complaining about it with the same old arguments year after year.

[chrisjs]

"Bigger, Stronger, Faster" is a pretty good film on this topic. I thought it did a good job of showing the desperation/addiction that many steroid users have, while putting to rest most of the fanatical health warnings.

 

I can't vouch for its accuracy but it seemed reasonable.

[DCNINJA]

Weighing in on this debate is like weighing in on the existence of God. Everyone has made up their mind. Few will change it. So wading into the pool and mixing my metaphors here, and I have to say the movie "Bigger Better Stronger" really is nothing more than sensationalism. It is the anabolic equivalent of refer madness. Having never used any illegal drugs to include marijuana, I find all of this sensationalism hinders any sort of real discussion about ethics, personal choice, and performance. I have been around long enough to remember the eighties when everyone told us steroids did not work. Then came the nineties when it was, "Well they work a little, but they are dangerous." The latest argument is, "They work, but only bad people use them."

 

If we really want to have a candid discussion about steroid use, let's all admit our biases. Claiming this guy uses or doesn't use will probably have nothing to do with whether the post originator will make a decision to use.

 

I am concerned the thread originator said he has a heart valve concern. My recommendation is that he find someone (a trained medical professional) and talk about his concern. There are doctors who will help you determine if steroids are appropriate and if so in what dosage.

 

I wish you the best of luck in making a well researched and informed decision that works for you. Whatever that decision might be.

[xjohanx]

I love musclemissions

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHovNgHCFtE

 

 

If someone chooses to take steroids I don't really care. I think the best thing is if we could do more research on the roids so people could make up their own minds. What pisses me off is when people aren't honest about their juicing and claiming to be natural when they're obviously not.

[VeganEssentials]

Sorcery!!!

 

 

I can't get enough of that part in both clips. Seriously, I nearly lost it when I saw that word come up. It's like when I was listening to Christian radio years ago and they claimed that Pokemon lead children into witchcraft and devil worship. Funny stuff!

[xjohanx]

I'm thinking about joining their website because if you join you can see

 

ONLINE VIDEO: Mr Olympia Contender Kevin Levrone Captured On Video Tape Performing What Appears To Be Witchcraft As Part Of His Training!

 

 

[DCNINJA]

You mean Pokemon is not an agent of Satan? What else don't I know?

[MarsAttacks]

I would like to add a couple of points.

 

1) In my experience 95% of people that have taking steroids are people with low confidence issues. Steroids can't fix that!

 

2) By taking steroids you fuck up your bodies own testosterone production. You have some much excess testosterone, that your body stops producing it. Hence the testicle shrinkage. Sure you can take even more drugs after to counteract the damage but why would you mess with your natural T levels. Think long term!!!!

[chrisjs]

By taking steroids you fuck up your bodies own testosterone production. You have some much excess testosterone, that your body stops producing it. Hence the testicle shrinkage. Sure you can take even more drugs after to counteract the damage but why would you mess with your natural T levels. Think long term!!!!

This is hardly an unacknowledged problem. Steroid users have to cycle on and off as well as take anti-estrogen supplements you mention as a complete regimen.

 

"Why would you mess with your natural T levels?" This is the whole point of steroids, to increase T levels to increase muscle growth. I don't see how stating this is an argument against it.

 

Additionally the long term side effects may well be overblown.

 

I don't take, nor am I interested in taking, steroids myself. But if people want to, I don't see where it's my place to have a problem with that. But with any topic, I don't see the point of repeating rhetoric that is inaccurate, it doesn't help anyone.

 

I don't see why we can't have a reasonable discussion about this without getting all emotional about it.

[Mellon]

in my eyes it´s ok if people want to take roids, politics should legalize it like they should legalize weed because nobody is harmed by taking this stuff

there are only two things grinding my gears about that

 

1 people with 240 bodyweight (ripped) at 6' say they´re natural,

wtf? if you know about it you know that this is just impossible, it´s only confusing people and encouraging people to do weird stuff and then taking drugs when they reckognize that they don´t grow that big in like a year or so

 

2 it´s bad for my own achievements, i mean, how HUGE would guys like us look, if there were no roids? and even if there are "natural" bodybuilding federations and so on, as already mentioned, it´s easy to be tested negative by being off for short time, so how could i even be

a champion of any sport without cheating?

 

i can just say that it´s my attitude that you have to accept anyone´s behaviour as long as it doesn´t offend you if you want to be accepted, too. so there´s nothing we can do about it without being disrespectful

[MarsAttacks]

This is hardly an unacknowledged problem. Steroid users have to cycle on and off as well as take anti-estrogen supplements you mention as a complete regimen.

 

"Why would you mess with your natural T levels?" This is the whole point of steroids, to increase T levels to increase muscle growth. I don't see how stating this is an argument against it.

 

Additionally the long term side effects may well be overblown.

 

 

 

It's not an argument, it's simply a statement. Emotional about steroids? Emotional about spinach dip maybe but not steroids.

 

My point is that a steroid user has to realize the fact that if they don't do a decent PCT, their natural T levels will never recover. Second, at best they return to normal. Some people can maintain there gains by training very hard and following a perfect diet. So why not skip the steroids, train really hard, follow a perfect diet and try to bring up your T levels naturally?

[chrisjs]

It's not an argument, it's simply a statement. Emotional about steroids? Emotional about spinach dip maybe but not steroids.

 

My point is that a steroid user has to realize the fact that if they don't do a decent PCT, their natural T levels will never recover. Second, at best they return to normal. Some people can maintain there gains by training very hard and following a perfect diet. So why not skip the steroids, train really hard, follow a perfect diet and try to bring up your T levels naturally?

Sorry the "emotional" comment wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular.

 

That's what I do--eat and train properly. I'm just not convinced that the long term effects of cycling steroids are as crazy-harmful as some would make it out to be.

[MarsAttacks]

That's what I do--eat and train properly. I'm just not convinced that the long term effects of cycling steroids are as crazy-harmful as some would make it out to be.

 

I'm craving spinach dip! I agree with you. There are so many degrees of drug use. Some people approach them more cautiously whereas others do not. If you do your research, make sure you know what you're getting from a reliable source, take the right dosages and make sure you're doing the right post cycle therapy for the right steroid you should be fine.

 

My point comes from personal experience. I train with a few guys who use gear. A couple of them just never come off! They taper, blah blah blah but don't come off because they cannot imagine losing some of their gains. The other 2 who are a little more cautious and cycle/pct. They still joke about Deca dick every so often and it is pretty obvious when they are off-cycling because their weight drops and so do there lifts.

 

Let's face it, most steroid users are just everyday guys who want to get huge and ripped and feel steroids is the only way. It's not!

[Fallen_Horse]

Everything (especially bad things) in moderation...

[Dr. B]

Wow, imagine my surprise to be lurking and find this thread had been topped. Just to update, I've done 3 cycles and am on my fourth. I switched from injectable AAS to oral pro hormone/steroids. Only (vegan) issue with the orals is the gelatin, but i made the switch so i wouldn't have to break the law.

 

Seems like everything has already been covered in this thread. Just wanted to update and let people know that there are healthy (mentally and physically) vegans out there who use. Overall I am able to carry around a slightly heavier body weight with lower body fat and significantly increased strength. If anyone has any questions you can ask here or PM me.