Vegetarian Prisoner Support Group

[Guest]

So long as they get veg food I don't care what they get to do. Actually they shouldn't even be able to lift weights. In the case of animal liberators thats a different story since I'd rather them not be in prison but when a veggie does something any non veg person does..then they don't deserve leisure activities. As for food they should get bland boring food...everyone should. Beans and bread or some kind of crap like that.

[Ping]

Oh veganpotter, I have to comment on that.

The imprisoned people's penalty is the imprisonment itself, not added torture like trash / incomplete / boring food or cutting activity offers etc. It seems like you think losing once owned freedom is not a penalty. Try to imagine their situation without thinking about what they've possibly done. It is already a kind of torture, at least a penalty.

Anyways, the real penalty is basically their conscience. If they have none, teach them one that reacts commonly. Imprisonment is just on top of that. Anything that goes further is a crime against humanity.

[beforewisdom]

Interesting link!

[Guest]

Oh veganpotter, I have to comment on that.

The imprisoned people's penalty is the imprisonment itself, not added torture like trash / incomplete / boring food or cutting activity offers etc. It seems like you think losing once owned freedom is not a penalty. Try to imagine their situation without thinking about what they've possibly done. It is already a kind of torture, at least a penalty.

Anyways, the real penalty is basically their conscience. If they have none, teach them one that reacts commonly. Imprisonment is just on top of that. Anything that goes further is a crime against humanity.

 

I wouldn't say that. For many...prison is better than being out of prison. They get cable TV...they know they're gonna get food...its easy to get drugs without having to worry about getting put in prison for them...and often times its a first chance for some to meet friends that have something in common with them...hence the withdrawl some long inmates have when they get out. There are people that commit crimes in prison very close to their release(even after having good records in prison) so they don't get released. I don't think that would happen if prison were more un-pleasant...not that its pleasant...its just better for some.

[Ping]

its just better for some.

I agree on that one. But I think that the interesting part is: compared to what exact circumstances?

It's not about making life worse inside the prisons, the correct answer is to make life better outside.

[Guest]

Prison is a punishment...and it should never be better than whats outside. Prison should not be for rehabilitation. We should rehabilitate people before they feel they need to do something to get put in prison. You get way too many second chances in the country(especially if you're young) and it doesn't promote self improvement for criminals. Once they earn their place in prison they've earned a loss of freedom and rights. And yes we do need to make life better outside of prison...thing is...a lot of people make their own lives bad. Not everyone but many do it to themselves.

[Guest]

Thats what the death penalty is for. It takes away all the issues that may ensue over a long stay in prison.

 

As for it contradicting my vegan convictions thats far from the truth. I believe in justice...justice for people and animals. Making lives better for criminals has nothing to do with that. These aren't innocent victims the way tortured animals are. These are people that have tortured others and thus deserve some of it back.

[Tarz]

It's not about making life worse inside the prisons, the correct answer is to make life better outside.

Life can/could be pretty damn good outside for a lot of criminals, yet they still chose to engage in criminality.

 

Too many people make excuses for criminality.

 

I'm very much with potter on the issue of punishment. If only others reserved their hand-wringing for the victims of crime rather than the perpetrators, who incidentally normally know full well what the repurcussions will be if they get caught, yet still go ahead and break the law. I don't lose sleep over them, and again I agree with potter, its too cushy nowadays. Prison is first and foremost a punishment, rehabilitation should be a secondary concern.

 

This is a general observation, and not a personal attack on you Ping.

[bloody_disgrace]

Most crime has a reason. Be it poverty, lack of education, some mental problem or something else.

It's not an excuse, but a reason.

 

And as long as those problems exist, there will be crime. No punishment, no jail, no gallows will ever stop crime.

 

Thats why i can't stand punishment. Actually i rather think the committed crime itself is a punishment for some criminals. Most people won't say something like "hey, im so proud i raped a twelve year old" or "yeah, i think its cool to be in a gang and risk to be shot any second i live".

And to stop them doing shit again, we shouldn't just forget about causes, but help them to live like we live and understand what we think are proper values. They should learn, why its worth to be part of society. Rejection doesn't really help to do this.

This does of course not mean, victims of crime wouldn't need support as well. Of course they do.

[Guest]

Thats not really true. A lot of crime is committed in this country by those with an education and money...more so than in other countries. Also our poor aren't even close to being poor when you compare them to the poor of many other nations. Those are not reasons...those are excuses. The death penalty is a reason for killing someone...being a horny murderer claims to have done it due to not having money is making excuses.

 

As for you thought on the crime being a punishment you're very wrong. I used to steal cars and car stereos. Me and my friends had a great time doing it. I won't ever steal anything again but I'll tell you right now...it was some of the most fun I've ever had.

[Aaron]

I guess I can toss this into this thread too.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

[Guest]

Innocent people being found guilty is a terrible thing. We should really use all we have in technology to keep innocent people out of prison and off of death row. As of now though...there are still more guilty people in prison than there are innocent but that doesn't mean things don't need to change. The large majority of those in prison are guilty and most are guilty of more than they've been found guilty of doing.

[Tarz]

Most crime has a reason. Be it poverty, lack of education, some mental problem or something else.

It's not an excuse, but a reason.

 

And as long as those problems exist, there will be crime. No punishment, no jail, no gallows will ever stop crime.

 

Thats why i can't stand punishment. Actually i rather think the committed crime itself is a punishment for some criminals. Most people won't say something like "hey, im so proud i raped a twelve year old" or "yeah, i think its cool to be in a gang and risk to be shot any second i live".

And to stop them doing shit again, we shouldn't just forget about causes, but help them to live like we live and understand what we think are proper values. They should learn, why its worth to be part of society. Rejection doesn't really help to do this.

This does of course not mean, victims of crime wouldn't need support as well. Of course they do.

Sorry, but you are an apologist for criminality.

 

Most crime does not occur because of poverty, lack of education, mental health issues or otherwise, most criminals are not rejected by society, but yeah some (a minority) of crime happens for these reasons.

 

People chose to commit crime when there are other alternatives available. Most people could of quite easily gone down a different route if they chose. They didn’t though and you’ll get next to no sympathy from me then when these people are apprehended and sentenced.

 

We all have an opinion on whether an offence is actually an offence, whether or not they should carry custodial sentences or not, and if so the appropriate length of jail-term.

 

Crime has always existed, always will. No prison won’t stop crime, but I don’t care. So long as offenders are being punished and kept off the streets, they cannot continue to commit more crime for the duration of their sentence. Some people don’t – and never will - share your ‘proper values’ though and don’t want to live how you live. Your ‘no punishment’ will actually lead to an escalation of crime as there is no longer the deterrent of a cell. I know prison doesn’t deter many criminals at present, abolish prisons though and you’ll soon see many more people breaking the law.

 

The thought that knowing they have committed a crime - having it on their conscience - is punishment enough for most criminals is farcical. They’ll just laugh to themselves if you come out with something like that. They may agree publicly, coz they means they can just continue offending. Yeah they’ll tell you what you want to hear – that they feel awful, feel terrible I did this crime, can’t live with myself, if it means they are not jailed and can just carry on offending regardless.

 

You’re logic falls down somewhat hear by the number of offences a criminal will often commit, so things can’t be too heavy on their mind. I know people re-offend after a prison term too, but at least they have been punished and kept off the streets for x period.

 

A few criminals may have a guilt trip after their crime, most will simply carry on offending. There are a lot of sick fuckers out there who are proud they raped a twelve year old, so much so that they try and do it again, numerous times in some instances, and sometimes leading to murder.

 

It’s a tragedy when innocents are wrongly convicted, but as potter, says that’s a small minority. I also agree with potter, the fact that innocents can be wrongly incarcerated is no reason not to let the guilty be spared four bare walls.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Tarz

[Ping]

Do you have any sources that prove your view of few, many, most, minority etc.?

[Tarz]

Do you have any sources that prove your view of few, many, most, minority etc.?

Do you to disprove my points?

[Ping]

Do you have any sources that prove your view of few, many, most, minority etc.?

Do you to disprove my points?

The thing is, that I do not really care about numbers since I think that even one missentenced person is enough to rethink our view of punishment. Furthermore if people are killed innocently, that's enough argument for me to be against death sentence by any means.

 

But what you do is relevating the suffering of a minority in your eyes and that's why I'd really like to see if it is just your feeling or your opinion based on facts.

 

Nothing personal against you.

[Tarz]

Well if you have any facts to show that most – I’d never deny that some are, and in disproportionate numbers - prisoners are mentally ill, poor (as in real poverty), rejected by society, feel awful guilt for what they’ve done and so on, or not done as most are apparently innocent to boot I’d like to read.

[paragonx]

Well as a former correctional officer i feel the need to comment. In my experience many of the prisoners did not show remorse for their crimes but found justification for their actions. That goes from petty theft to murder. Even in the jail they were up to no good. If you can't conform to the rules in a controlled environment how the hell are you going to conform to the laws of a "free" society? There was a lady who was driving drunk and stoned with five children in her car, none of which had their seatbelts on. She crashed and was the only survivor. She did not show any remorse for her actions and said she did not deserve to be in prison because losing her two children was punishment enough. The driver served 2-1/2 years and was on work release for most of the time.

 

That is just one of many stories i saw there. Don't even get me started on all of the prescribed medicine they were on and there three square meals a day.

 

Also - a very close family member of mine spent time in jail for possession with intent to sale, endangering the welfare of children, public drunkenness and the list goes on. He had the same opportunities as me when he was a child; he has no excuse for putting his family through the torment of worrying about him. He is a weak minded individual and that is his only excuse for the things that he does. He knows what he does is wrong, but does nothing to change.

 

So to me jail is the only option for these people and no it shouldn't be a pleasant experience for them. They should fear going back to prison, not have the attitude of “it ain't that badâ€

[Guest]

I find it odd that mostly everyone against hard punishments come from regions or towns where crime isn't a big problem. Most people that are against these punishments are somewhat privileged and don't know people that have been murdered, raped(or at least known about it), or mugged. Try meeting some people that have been wronged, and meet some real criminals before you say criminals don't deserve what they get. I stole cars, and car stereos... I deserve harsh punishment for what I did...I wouldn't want to serve but thats the point isn't it. I've also had murdered friends...I don't think many people who have had a murdered friend or family member wouldn't rethink their opinions on punishment and imprisonment.