TheLeetOne

Haven't posted in awhile but couldn't resist this one. I feel strongly against letting yourself be hungry at any time, let alone before a workout. I'm not a bulker, either. I'd also not recommend consuming a full meal immediately before a workout. If you wake up and begin your workout right away, and need to fit something in that will digest efficiently and in a matter of a few minutes, I'd suggest blended fruit. This would give your body the simple carbs it needs, without loading your stomach up for the duration of the exercise (which requires extra blood flow and energy spent for the digestion process). Our bodies our so well-designed to consume fruit, that it will enter and leave the stomach and be absorbed readily. Immediately after the workout, I'd recommend blended fruit also. If you're going to do the whole extra protein thing (which research has lead me to disagree with wholeheartedly) at the very least wait for 30-60 minutes after your workout before you punish your body with such a heavy and difficultly digested food. The fruit will definitely provide your body with what it needs while you wait for your protein. All your body wants/needs immediately after a vigorous workout is simple carbs. In fact, that's pretty much all your body ever wants. Simple carbs from fruit, and leafy greens. Feel free to ask me to explain my reasoning behind any of this

Yeah, there's hemp milk. That's what I was drinking with my cereal before I went all raw, it's good stuff; really easy to make your own also. 1/4 cup hemp seeds, 1 cup water, 2 fresh pitted medjool dates, and if you want it a little sweeter; add some stevia, or agave nectar. blend together until it looks white, and drinkable (it'll be a little frothy)

Just wanted to apologize to Coutoure for coming off as a bit of a dick in an earlier post when I said: "In conclusion: you're very misinformed" I must've been having a bad day, I usually try to avoid being so pompous and silly so it's a little embarassing. Thanks for replying in a helpful manner despite it all.

Thanks for the response, Couture. Yes, I do exercise a lot (running, and weight training). I also snowboard (although the season just ended), train for competitive Muay Thai kickboxing, and boxing. It's pretty safe to say that my activity level is very high, and you are correct in stating that this activity level will cause acidity within my system. What's strange is that we're having such polar opposite reactions to the fruit based diet. You seem to have fallen apart on it, whereas I'm thriving (no pun intended) on it. Maybe it comes down to different body types? More likely, I believe that we must have gone about our fruit based diets differently. How long were you on the diet before you started to experience these symptoms? I've been doing this for almost 6 months, so I'd almost expect to be seeing at least ONE negative symptom by now if there were going to be any. I don't believe you're right about not being able to maintain an alkaline ph with a high activity level, while consuming a fruit-based raw vegan diet. Most fruits have an alkalizing effect on the body, and the greens I get in my daily massive salad even more so. I highly doubt that there's any sustainable diet out there that would have a much more alkalizing effect on the body. Alkaline minerals don't get pulled out of your teeth by sugars and acids (as far as I know), they get pulled out of all of your bones and teeth by your body's internal systems when alkaline minerals are in short supply elsewhere in the body. Simple carbohydrates (the most healthful of which I believe is sugar obtained from eating whole, fresh, organic fruit) are the primary source of fuel for your body (and mind). While I agree with you that limiting the intake of other sugars is necessary, limiting yourself of your body's primary fuel source does not seem like a smart, or healthy, idea.

Believe me, I'm listening. My method of getting information out of people is a little strange, as I usually prefer to debate one side of an issue to get them to stand up and teach me about their side. That's just how I learn. One could still call sugar that was extracted from fruit 'natural sugar' though, and consuming it would have an entirely different effect than consuming the whole fruit itself. You're right; if someone's already gone through this I should listen to what they've experienced... so Couture: how long were you on a fruit based diet? what other foods did that diet consist of? did you eat all of your fruits whole (the edible portion, at least)? what was your diet like before switching to a fruit based one? Also, there are many different methods to test the body's alkalinity, which will all provide different numbers. Do you know which method of alkalinity test you had done?

Consuming 564 grams of sugar from whole fruit is completely different than consuming 564g of other sugars that can still be labelled 'raw natural sugar'. Even if sugar is extracted from fruit, it's substantially different than actually eating whole fruit itself. One thing you seem to be missing on the sugar debate, is the fact that I'm also getting an immense amount of fiber along WITH the sugar, which helps to regulate the release of that sugar. One reason that some raw foodists run into issues with sugar is that they don't consume WHOLE fruits, they believe that juices are also similarly 'healthy' -- the problem being is that most of the fiber has been removed from the juice, leaving a product with a high glycemic index as the end result. Another MAJOR reason that raw foodists run into trouble with blood sugar is their fat intake (which often is actually just as high, or higher than someone on the S.A.D). Fat inhibits the proper absorption of the sugar, causing it to stay in the bloodstream longer, which leads to many different health issues (including candida). Raw food diets often tend to heavily rely on oils, nuts, and seeds which range anywhere from 35-100% calories from fat. If someone is consuming whole fruit, and keeping their fat intake low (my idea of low is probably much lower than what most would consider low), they will have zero issues with properly assimilating the sugar from as much fruit as they can eat. How did you find out 'the truth' that the 'only' alkaline foods are green leafy veggies? I agree with you that the lists of acidic/alkalizing foods all vary, but I think your statement is a little far fetched. It's true that greens are important, and that limiting certain kinds of sugar intake is also important. The sugar obtained from whole, fresh fruit is what our body is designed to run on, however, and it would be extremely difficult to ever get too much of it from a whole fruit source (as long as the rest of your diet/lifestyle is healthy enough to allow for the proper absorption of it). I really don't understand your concern with dental issues. My personal experience has been that my dentist actually comments on how my mouth seems even healthier and better taken care of than it did the last time he saw me (the only significant change I'd made since my last appointment that might have an effect on oral health had been my diet). This is a far cry from 'serious dental problems' although I really have only been on this diet for 6 months or so, so we'll see!

Actually I think you're getting confused by the fact that fruit in it's undigested, out of the body state may be acidic. The minerals present in (most) fruits are mainly alkaline, and the digestion of the vast majority of fruit is actually a process that results in an alkaline state inside the body. Here's one list of alkalizing/acidic foods: http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html and another site explaining things a little more: http://www.chimachine4u.com/AA.html Those are just the first two results I get from google when searching 'fruit alkaline body'... they weren't selected in any sort of a personally biased manner.

Yeah, I hear a lot of people tell me that they'd probably only try a diet like that in the summer, as it makes more sense for many reasons (produce being more readily and locally available, not needing the extra heat generated by hard to digest cooked foods to stay warm, etc). I like the sound of your plan, and I also like knowing that i'm getting 60+ grams of protein (I weigh ~160lbs currently) when I'm training hard (and I'm always training hard). I never would've thought, until I decided to write it all down and do the math, that I'd be getting those 60+ grams/day easily from fruit though!

So, one man saying protein is counter-productive is enough in your eyes? What about all the real solid scientific evidence that shows the opposite of what graham says? Oh, and did you ever notice that graham is SKINNY? I totally hear where you're coming from, and it's important to note that I originally had the same thoughts on protein as you -- that it's important to make sure I get as much as my body needs. It's also important to note that I wouldn't be here posting my diet plan just because 'one man' is saying that excessive amounts of protein were counterproductive. If I wasn't getting great results (I just want to share what works for me!) I'd be Dr. Graham's biggest skeptic. Currently, with the above posted diet or something similar I take in 60-75g of raw protein per day... almost all of it coming from the fruit! It's a fact (in my experience, at least) that if you're only eating enough calories to healthily sustain yourself, and you're eating almost entirely fruit, you WILL be skinny. What do we do when we want to gain weight on any nutrition plan, though? We eat more. Eating more, however, can put extra stress on your body... (particularly if this extra food is high protein or fat!) so when eating more with the goal being to gain muscle, it's ideal that this extra food you're eating is easily digestible, and highly nutritious (read: fruit). All things considered, taking in 60-75g of high quality protein a day while keeping my system clean and alkaline, I don't find it surprising at all that I'm experiencing faster, easier gains (now that I've increased my caloric intake to allow for weight gain) than I previously had thought would be possible for me. If my own body is responding in such an obviously positive way, that's all the scientific evidence I need (not that I haven't also thoroughly researched the subject before venturing down this path). I'm not here to try to convince people, though! I just felt driven to express how beneficial I've found a fruit-based diet to be. Oh, and Dr. Graham isn't a bodybuilder -- he likes being skinny People that go to a raw food diet have teeth problems? My dentist won't stop badgering me about how well taken-care of my teeth are for someone who refuses to floss. And what kind of good foods are you talking about? The best food for human consumption really IS fruit, and it's protein content is usually less than 10%, so I'm not sure why you'd question if 80/10/10 is possible.

Hey all, It's been awhile since i've posted anything on this forum, the main reason being that i've been so personally content with my nutrition plan that the need to seek advice has dropped off... substantially. Just thought i'd post a rough breakdown of what an average day of eating is like for me. Anyone who's familiar with my old nutrition plan (http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8705)will notice a significant change in direction, mainly in two areas: -No longer taking any supplements (not because i believe they're overly harmful, but just because i believe they're no longer necessary to achieve peak performance and muscle growth while maintaining minimal body fat -- which has always been my main objective). -No longer consuming any cooked foods (cheating happens, but i firmly believe that the mainstay of my diet makes up for the occasional slip) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7:00 AM: -1 oz. goji berries, -4 fresh medjool dates, -6 medium sized bananas, -170g Blueberries (one package, haha) -Water (enough for a nice, drinkable consistency) Blended together as a smoothie. 12:00 PM: Massive salad including things such as: -mixed organic greens / baby spinach -cherry/grape tomatoes -pineapple -cucumber, celery -raw walnuts/pecans -dried cranberries/goji berries -whatever mainly organic dressing is available, usually some sort of vinaigrette. (Annie's naturals makes a papaya poppyseed dressing that's great taste-wise, although health-wise a home made dressing would probably still be better) 4:30 PM: -1 oz. goji berries, -2 fresh medjool dates, -3 medium sized bananas, -227g Strawberries (one package) -Water (enough for a nice, drinkable consistency) Blended together as a smoothie. 5:00 PM: -15 minutes running, -1 hour weight lifting routine 6:30 PM: -1 oz. goji berries, -4 fresh medjool dates, -6 medium sized bananas, -170g Raspberries (again, one package) -Water (enough for a nice, drinkable consistency) Blended together as a smoothie. 8:30 PM: -1 pineapple or -2/3 mangoes or -any other kind of fruit, enough to fill me up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Totals for fruit only: Calories: ~3332 Protein: ~48g Sodium: ~80mg Carbohydrates: ~864g Dietary Fiber: ~111g Sugars: ~564g Vitamin A: 870% Vitamin C: 1032% Calcium: 81% Iron: 118% Currently I weigh ~160lbs. (% values based on a 3000 calorie diet) 92% calories from carbs 3% calories from fats 5% calories from protein ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As you can see, it's an extremely simple diet... based on what nature intended us to eat -- fruit! Most of my daily fat comes from the dressing on my salad at lunch, or nuts (which i occasionally add to my salad). There is an IMMEDIATELY apparent 'lack' of protein. Anyone who finds this lack of protein to be bizarre for someone who's training to gain muscle should really read the 80 10 10 book by Douglas Graham, in which he explains why not only are excessive amounts of protein/fat not necessary; they're actually counterproductive. I'm not going to explain the reasoning behind this, as I think that certain health professionals such as Dr. Graham can explain it more eloquently than myself, but for what it's worth i've never felt, looked, or performed anywhere near the level at which i do since adopting this diet. I'm gaining muscle faster, have lost all the body fat i could've ever hoped for (and then some), and am energetic and happy throughout the entire course of the day. There are so many other little personal health changes that i've noticed (all of which have been for the better) that i'd feel silly listing them all. I've been doing this for at least the last 3-4 months, and will never look back. If anyone is interested, i'll post some before/after pictures of me from when I was on a more standard vegan diet, and some more recent ones now that I'm on a completely raw vegan fruit-based diet. Any comments/criticisms are appreciated! Oh, and btw I'm currently training boxing, and beginning Muay Thai / BJJ classes next week. I can't wait to go lay the vegan smackdown, LOL. I'll keep you all posted on how things go.

I'm in the middle of a lunch break at a training course right now, and there are a few different responses I could give here, but I should really start by saying that my initial post may have come across a little more harshly than intended; it's important to note that I was speaking entirely based on personal opinion... That in mind, one of the things recommended in the Thrive Diet is the consumption of grains and pseudograins, both of which (primarily the first of the two) I don't consider to be foods we are meant to consume. In nature I doubt we'd be snacking on grains in their raw state, and so without even getting into the specific health issues that can arise from the consumption of them, grains are already discounted from being a viable food in my mind. Their protein content is also too high for it to be advisable to make them a staple in any diet (although I doubt many people come close to consuming even 50% of their diet as grains, so this shouldn't be a huge issue), and I've read that they also cause irritation to the lining of the intestines, causing the body to react by increasing it's mucous lining. Add to this the fact that grains aren't appealing to us on their own (without some form of sweetening or toppings) and grains look less and less like a real food... (at least in my mind) I'll probably follow up with another post to better explain my original one, as on it's own I think it makes me seem a little judgmental (amongst other things)... I was actually hoping to get flamed for it a little bit more, to open up a larger discussion on the topic. P.S: My comment about 'Fat and Protein Supplement' being a more fitting label is due to the fact that I take it for exactly that reason (on days where my % of calories from protein and fat is less than 8% or so each). I can't remember whether the Thrive Diet book actually suggests eating any certain amount of protein OR fat, but many of the foods suggested definitely contain large amounts of one or the other (a large amount to me is anything greater than 20% or so of calories from fat or protein).

I've been following the principles of the thrive diet for quite awhile, but recently changed to a more simple, fruit based diet. I experienced a great improvement in overall health AND performance/muscle growth when switching from a normal diet, to a primarily vegan diet, and then to a completely vegan 'thrive' based diet. I'd like to say that although it's leaps and bounds better than the SAD (standard american diet), my personal (extensive) nutritional research has lead me to believe that it is still very far from optimal. To put my personal opinion into context a little better, I've stated before that 'Vega' and the 'Thrive Diet' turned my life around completely (for the better) and possibly even saved my life in the way it changed my outlook on nutrition to one that views it as one of (if not the) most integral parts of overall health... despite having experienced such a great benefit from both the book and the 'Vega' products, I still think there is huge room for improvement. The Carbs:Protein:Fat ratio of 'Vega Whole Food Meal Replacement' is 26:41:33 (by calories, not by weight). Not only do I think that this is not optimal, I believe it's just plain sub-par. Carbs are our primary fuel, and the easiest (if taken in the right form, as is found in fruit) thing for our body to assimilate, yet they only comprise 26% of the calorie content, leaving excess amounts of fat and protein to make up the rest of the calories? To really explain the harm that can come from consuming such a high percentage of our calories from fat and protein, this would have to be a much longer post than I have time for, but I urge people to research this for themselves. If nothing else, I believe that 'Whole Food Meal Replacement' is an extremely dangerous way to label a product with this extremely high ratio of fat and protein to carbs, as living a lifestyle based around this ratio would lead to dire health concerns (again I don't have the time required to fully explain myself on this point, but I'll be happy to debate any responses to this post, and support this with sound scientific information). Perhaps 'Fat and Protein Supplement' would be more fitting. While condemning the caloric makeup of this one product supported by the Thrive Diet is far from a good reason to condemn the diet as a whole, there are many basic principles and food types recommended in the book which I have come to believe can be quite harmful to one's health.

Thanks DV, you've got a very solid point there... I think I'll either freshly mill some flaxseed with my morning porridge, or look into the viability of doing the same with chia seed instead, rather than adding the EFA blend to it.

I've read quite a variety of articles/studies on this subject and I agree with potter on this one. If I had more time I'd find some articles to link to that would back it up.

NOW Foods Branched Chain Amino Acid Powder - 12 oz. I didn't find the powdered form, but I just recently started taking the pill form of this from the same manufacturer. I take it with a small fruit smoothie about an hour before my workout, based on some unproven articles I've read lately 'documenting' the importance of pre-workout nutrition. The reason I do this is that the article that peaked my interest in this was based on athletes who were fed pharmaceutical grade pure aminos w/ simple carbs an hour before workout (the article claims that some subjects showed 200% muscle growth compared to those who went without the pre-workout snack). I'd just add protein powder to a fruit smoothie rather than using the supplement, but food combination logic states that this protein/fruit combo would be difficult for the stomach to digest, and I'm somewhat naively assuming that the supplement will interfere less than a normal protein powder would... I usually avoid experimenting on myself based on nothing more than wild claims, but for some reason I've opted to give this idea a try...

I regularly consume the Vega EFA oil blend (which containts flax oil) so I'm really glad that you brought this up, GRR. I've read many things which gave reasons to eat the source of oils rather than the oils themselves, and the possibilities of what you posted being true are a good enough reason for me to give the entire oil topic another look. Thanks! This is the kind of thing that keeps me on my nutritional toes, lol. If everyone was too worried about what they posted being disproved, then we wouldn't end up learning nearly as much as we do here...

Haha... great article, glad I read it. Thanks Troy!

Before you started taking Vega, were you taking a protein powder regularly? Each serving of Vega contains quite a bit of protein, so your body might just be in the process of adjusting to this. As cubby2112 said, the chlorophyll also can take a little time to get used to (I've seen some people react to wheat grass juice for apparently this reason).

http://www.amorganic.com/fulvic-acid.html seems to have some comprehensive info on the importance of fulvic acid... of course they also carry fulvic acid products :/

Okay, so I just re-read the section in the book about the optimal amino profile, and I was quite wrong about the combination he'd mentioned. I thought it was 3:2:1 Hemp:rice:pea, when in fact it was 4:3:2 pea:hemp:rice. The book says that this combo is not only complete, but "complimentary and synergistic" although it lacks a good explanation for this. I've edited my previous post, and changed the table to show the amino profile of this new combo... it'd be nice if trueprotein.com started carrying a high-quality rice protein so I could order it premixed.

I believe the three main proteins in Vega are hemp, rice, and pea; although there are many other ingredients containing small amounts of aminos. I'll see if I can find out the exact ratio of hemp, rice, and pea in Vega, but judging by his book 'The Thrive Diet' I'm guessing it'll be fairly similar to what I've done in the table in my last post.

I'm glad you brought this up, Chris, because I was trying to find a good way to explain this myself This also helps explain why the "exceptional" amino acid profile that Brendan Brazier refers to includes the ratio of protein powders that it does... now if only I knew the reasoning that made him believe it to be 'exceptional' I'd feel pretty good about combining the hemp, rice, and pea as he does. It seems like with the combination of hemp and rice that I currently take, I get a healthy abundance of most aminos... but the addition of pea protein to the mix would definitely balance things out more, for instance I would be getting more lysine (which hemp and rice don't contain a huge amount of). This ratio also seems to make sense for someone taking primarily pea (gemma) protein, as the addition of hemp and rice would improve their tryptophan intake. I'm starting to think there may be some merit to his recommended combination. Here is what the amino acid profile of the 4:3:2 pea:hemp:rice protein powders looks like: http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9571/aminoste4.gif ***NOTE: I've just realized I made a crucial error when compiling the data on this protein combination. I did my calculations based on a 4:3:2 ratio by WEIGHT, when in fact the ratio I was looking for was by volume. I'll correct this table as soon as I have time.***

I can't believe that I'm only finding this topic now, haha... this subject is something I've been researching / experimenting with for a long time now. It's funny actually because I have a similar spreadsheet of my own that I put together to compare hemp, rice, and pea (gemma) protein, but I never took it quite to the same extent as Troy's. There's been too much said already for me to go back and try to reply to each individual post (I'm at work right now), but my understanding is that our general consensus here is correct in assuming that the ideal ratio is more important than the total amount of aminos present per gram of protein powder. I also found it troubling that there's no real scientific consensus on the ideal amino acid profile for muscle building, but in lack of such a guideline I've been assuming that a combination of 4:3:2 ratio of pea:hemp:rice protein powder is 'ideal' based on the book 'The Thrive Diet' by Brendan Brazier. In the book he vaguely and indirectly mentions his experiments with finding an ideal AA profile lead him to believe that these three together in a similar ratio (I'll have to double-check the ratio, as it's been awhile since I read through the book) formed an exceptional AA profile. I realize this is a really loose assumption, but it's all I've had to work with. It may hold some merit though, as he has a large support base of doctors who help him with his formulations. Looking forward to seeing more on this topic; thanks for bringing it up, Troy!

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this stuff. Has anyone really looked into it? There seem to be some interesting claims being made about it, and I know that fulvic acid IS important, but should we really be thinking about supplementing with it? I'm having a hard time finding info on it that's not coming from somewhere that sells it, but I'll post a link if/when I do... most places seem to claim that it's a 'miracle molecule' capable of greatly increasing the bioavailability of minerals and other nutrients, as well as being a powerful antioxidant... among other things.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right that it won't keep you from making any on your own as long as you cycle it; but I'm operating under the (probably naive) assumption that if I don't take creatine supplements, yet continue to train explosively and near exhaustively, my body may learn that it wants more creatine and therefore maybe slowly start to produce more and more on it's own... we all know the body is very adaptive, so why not?