Guns

[michaelhobson]

I checked the site and found different numbers to those. Have you got a link to that page?

 

Choose "Crime" in the first dropdown, and then there are various stats available titled "Gun violence > Homicides >" The overall rates are here http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_ove_hom_rat_per_100_pop-rate-per-100-000-pop

[pamela]

Yeah it's true that there's huge difference concerning violence between urban areas and rural areas. Except if you look at the small villages with the highest redneck mentality, good chances are that the homicides level is pretty low per capital in rural areas compared to urban.

But I lived in a big city and now in a 2 000 habitants village, and noticed there's another kind of violence: vandalism. I have the impression that the kids, maybe because there's less bars, nightclubs, arcades and places to go out, or more bored, so they just go outside and break things. I know there's this also in big cities, but proportionnally less. I tought it would be safer to keep my door unlock, but the video club where I'm working got vandalised twice in a short period of time during night when it's closed The strangest thing is that they don't even steal any money or video materials, just did a mess by putting everything on the floor LOL! We wouldn't see this in a big city.

 

Kids in rural areas die in other ways. I can list off a dozen and a half people I went to high school with who either a) died in a car accident where drinking or drugs was a factor, b) died in a farming/atv accident, or c) are in jail for being behind the wheel during the same car accidents mentioned in a).

 

I actually didn't find vandalism to be much of a problem in the area I grew up. Just car accidents and teenage pregnancy.

 

And to keep this slightly on topic, pretty well everyone had guns. I grew up with one in the house because my dad was a cop. Most of the boys I went to school with were hunters. I have never heard of any gun violence there. But I really REALLY don't like guns, just like I don't like a lot of the staples of rural life (huntin', fishin', farmin', ATVin' etc.)

[Richard]

I checked the site and found different numbers to those. Have you got a link to that page?

 

Choose "Crime" in the first dropdown, and then there are various stats available titled "Gun violence > Homicides >" The overall rates are here http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_ove_hom_rat_per_100_pop-rate-per-100-000-pop

 

I'm confused because I was looking at this:

 

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000

 

which is sourced from this:

 

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?cat=2&ind=113

 

which says the firearm death rate for america per 100,000 is 10, unless I've misread or misunderstood something? Maybe it's because the stats are from different years

 

EDIT: Also was looking at this:

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_gun-crime-gun-violence

sourced from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

 

And here also:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

All the charts show gun homicide to be above all other homicides combined, unless I am reading something wrong, or am misundertanding the data

 

So I'm confused about what's what

[dontxhide]

Ive been struggling whether I should post this, because I know this is a serious issue and I dont want to hurt anyones feelings. But I decided to do it anyways, if not for arguments sake, then for a quick laugh:

 

This is just for fun! Im not trying to go after anyone with this!: But I typed in "vegan and gun" in google and found this back on the 3rd page somewhere:

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/519561/posts ( in the messages at the bottom it says something about eating vegans vs eating meat eaters at bbq's, which taste better. thats how it was on google)

 

A lot of the stuff I dont agree with, but its a sarcastic point of view that the gun owners have about people taking away their guns ~shrugs~ It made me laugh. THIS IS JUST FOR LAUGHS (and i didnt agree with most of the stuff they put up on here):

 

My favorites:

 

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

 

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

 

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

 

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

 

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

 

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self- protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

 

Flame away, lol. I expect it

[michaelhobson]

Hm, good stats Richard. I would go with the U.S. Department of Justice stats over any other http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm They show gun homocides for 2005 at about a 2:1 ratio, so double the number commited with guns as compared to all other methods.

 

Honestly though, I don't think guns are the real issue here. I'm with "I'm Your Man" on this one. Some people in this nation are just determined to kill each other and they will continue to do so with or without guns. Other nations like Canada have the same or more guns and just don't kill each other with them.

[dontxhide]

Hm, good stats Richard. I would go with the U.S. Department of Justice stats over any other http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm They show gun homocides for 2005 at about a 2:1 ratio, so double the number commited with guns as compared to all other methods.

 

Honestly though, I don't think guns are the real issue here. I'm with "I'm Your Man" on this one. Some people in this nation are just determined to kill each other and they will continue to do so with or without guns. Other nations like Canada have the same or more guns and just don't kill each other with them.

Agree

[Richard]

Hm, good stats Richard. I would go with the U.S. Department of Justice stats over any other http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm They show gun homocides for 2005 at about a 2:1 ratio, so double the number commited with guns as compared to all other methods.

 

Those are the same figures as I posted, yeah. Gun homicides for 2005 are 11,346. Non-gun homicides = 5,346. So in 2005, all the other methods of killing people combined, only killed 1/2 as many people as guns. Is that right?

[veganmama]

I don't have a problem with people who love guns as objects, work of art of whatever they find it is. Therefore those guns should be modified to become useless or shoot only blank bullets.

But to buy a gun simply to be able to defend yourself against other guns... that's sad. It comes to the samething than knife agaisnt knife, or fist to fist, but at least this rarely kills. So instead of buying more and more guns just so everyone is at the same level, Americans should all throw their guns in the garbage (or recycling) and everybody wil be able to defend themselves with their hands.

Guns are probably one of the biggest problem in the US. In comparision, there's like almost zero killing by guns in other countries such as Japan, Canada, etc.

 

I second that!! as a mother I don't know what I am going to do when my children are old enough to go over to a friend's house.... I hate the thought of ppl having guns in their homes/cars/pockets..... ughhh.

 

A 60 (or 70?) something yr old grandmother and her FOUR YEAR OLD grandaughter were recently shot in a "road rage" incident here in my hometown (phx). The grandmother died and the 4 year old girl was in the hospital in critical condition. WTF?!?! the worst part: the shooter was a PREGNANT WOMAN!! it brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it.

[Im Your Man]

xdontxhide

Micheal Moore is not worse than most other medias. Even if he shape the truth sometimes, at least he does it for a good cause. President Bush lied directly to his nation, yet he got re-elected by the same people who are shouting at little details in Micheal Moore's movies. On his website, he shows the facts to counter every suposed lies he would have said in his movies.

He doesn't only choose the crazy people to interview, most of the people he talks to are just kids at school and people in the street.

Of course his movies are not pure documentaries with a neutral opinion. He's doing something to inform while entertaining, and to provoke reactions and make things change. He's doing that because otherwise most people won't watch his movies.

Marshall McLuhan, who said "The medium is the message", is less provocative and entertaining and most people have never heard about him.

 

Honestly though, I don't think guns are the real issue here. I'm with "I'm Your Man" on this one. Some people in this nation are just determined to kill each other and they will continue to do so with or without guns. Other nations like Canada have the same or more guns and just don't kill each other with them.

 

Yeah it's so simple yet so mysterious at the same time. I guess we will never be able to know exactly why until we understand all the complex secrets of human brain, soul and spirit. Like Charlton Heston said himself, it's in the blood of Americans.

 

 

A 60 (or 70?) something yr old grandmother and her FOUR YEAR OLD grandaughter were recently shot in a "road rage" incident here in my hometown (phx). The grandmother died and the 4 year old girl was in the hospital in critical condition. WTF?!?! the worst part: the shooter was a PREGNANT WOMAN!! it brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it.

 

Damn that's crazy! Cars and guns, two evil inventions. And phones, I hate phones, Lol.

 

Hm, good stats Richard. I would go with the U.S. Department of Justice stats over any other http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm They show gun homocides for 2005 at about a 2:1 ratio, so double the number commited with guns as compared to all other methods.

 

Those are the same figures as I posted, yeah. Gun homicides for 2005 are 11,346. Non-gun homicides = 5,346. So in 2005, all the other methods of killing people combined, only killed 1/2 as many people as guns. Is that right?

 

wow that's intense facts. That's more than what I could have imagined.

[dontxhide]

Its a very polarized argument, and every person who has posted thus has had very valid comments.

 

But I just have to say that, although it is sad when things like veganmama mentioned happen, the USA will never give up their guns.

 

Even if they ban it from the citizenry, the cops and the military, who are some of the most UNSTABLE people I can think of, will still carry firearms. And unlike the citizenry, they can kill and usually get away with it if caught!

 

And, its not just self defense from other people, many gun owners i know, have it for self defense from OUR government. What happens to a populace with no guns when those who are in power are corrupt, and have guns!? Supposed human rights go right out the window, and the citizeny cant do anything about it cause they no longer have firepower to fight back.

 

This is taking it to an extreme. But if guns are banned, then Im sure criminals (and more than likely those people who want defense from their government) will find other ways to do their violence, maybe more destructive and just as easy.

 

For example.

 

Get a gasoline can and fill it up at the pump. Get an empty bottle, get a rag. You know where this is going. Its cheaper than a gun, and can cause a whole hell of a lot more damage.

 

~shrugs~ If their is a will, their is a way. I hate saying this, but GUNS dont kill people.

 

I agree with what Im Your Man said though, its the people who do. And for some reason the USA has some really messed up people. But that wouldnt change whether or not they had guns or not.

[DaN]

17 April 2007

 

Virginia Tech

 

In a tragic episode Monday morning, the worst shooting incident in American history, a gunman shot and killed at least 32 students and faculty and wounded dozens of others on the campus of Virginia Tech university in Blacksburg, Virginia. In the end, the gunman turned the gun on himself.

 

Michael wrote:

 

Honestly though, I don't think guns are the real issue here. I'm with "I'm Your Man" on this one. Some people in this nation are just determined to kill each other and they will continue to do so with or without guns

 

I would say that guns are the real issue myself.To say that some people are just determined to kill eachother and they will continue to do so with or without guns is true..

 

But here is what happens without the gun:

 

09 June 2008

 

A man rammed a lorry into a crowd of shoppers, jumped out and went on a stabbing spree in central Tokyo yesterday, killing at least seven people and wounding ten others.

The lunchtime assault paralysed the Akihabara neighbourhood, a popular district selling electronic goods which is wildly popular among the country's cyber-wise youth. The killings are the latest in a series of grisly knifings that have stoked fears of rising crime in Japan.

 

Tomohiro Kato, 25, was apprehended during the attack, which lasted three minutes, with blood on his face and later told police he was "tired of life".

 

"The suspect told police that he came to Akihabara to kill people,"

 

Had the above man had easy access to a gun he could have killed alot more than 7 people.The fact that he was restricted to a samurai sword limited his capability compared to if he had firearms.

[HCPinGviini]

17 April 2007

 

Virginia Tech

 

In a tragic episode Monday morning, the worst shooting incident in American history, a gunman shot and killed at least 32 students and faculty and wounded dozens of others on the campus of Virginia Tech university in Blacksburg, Virginia. In the end, the gunman turned the gun on himself.

We also had here, in Finland, a school shooting massacre, which was highly related to this and the Columbine school massacre, 'cause the gunman admired those shooters. You can read about it from Wikipedia: Jokela High School Massacre.

 

It was really a tragic thing to happen.

 

And we also had a school massacre threat in our school on a day (16th of April), that I discovered to be the anniversary of The Virginia Tech massacre. But I'm glad that there was no shooter in our school 'cause likely she/he would have shot me, 'cause there weren't a lot of students attending that day (they were scared because of the threat).

[DaN]

Sounds like you had a lucky escape due

[CollegeB]

I've liked guns since I was very young. Maybe its a mental disorder. I don't know but the only harm done has been the drain on my wallet. I now own several and shoot them regularly to be proficient. It does get costly so having one with a good amount of ammo and magazines should suit most, but I guess that depends on your purposes. As for other reasons I own: I believe I have a right to defend myself in whatever way I see fit and I enjoy shooting and working on my guns (biceps too ). Granted I cant take on a SWAT team, but common thugs should take heed. I am pleased to not live in a different nation where my government which is supposed to represent me has deemed me a threat and incapable of being responsible. I see automobiles as much more of a threat, but i'm not up for banning them either. I think its great you are considering the ramifications of becoming a firearms owner. Drop me a line if you want to ask a gun owner further questions.

[dontxhide]

I've liked guns since I was very young. Maybe its a mental disorder. I don't know but the only harm done has been the drain on my wallet. I now own several and shoot them regularly to be proficient. It does get costly so having one with a good amount of ammo and magazines should suit most, but I guess that depends on your purposes. As for other reasons I own: I believe I have a right to defend myself in whatever way I see fit and I enjoy shooting and working on my guns (biceps too ). Granted I cant take on a SWAT team, but common thugs should take heed. I am pleased to not live in a different nation where my government which is supposed to represent me has deemed me a threat and incapable of being responsible. I see automobiles as much more of a threat, but i'm not up for banning them either. I think its great you are considering the ramifications of becoming a firearms owner. Drop me a line if you want to ask a gun owner further questions.

 

Dropped you a line.

[Gyre]

Cowards weapon. Really good at what it is designed to do.

[Zack]

Banning guns only keeps them out of the hands of decent people. Criminals will get them either way.

[Gyre]

I said nothing on banning them or criminals. In my opinion if someone is using a gun in a form of authority they are a criminal. I think that if a police officer pulls a gun on you, you have the right to pull one on him or her if you feel so inclined. That person has already disrespected you out of fear or a lack of understanding.

[DaN]

Guns are really bad whoever is holding them

 

If we replaced them with nerf guns or water pistols - now that would be great.

 

[dontxhide]

Guns are really bad whoever is holding them

 

If we replaced them with nerf guns or water pistols - now that would be great.

 

 

 

Dont know about that. Here we are personifying a gun (guns are not bad, as they have no will of their own to act bad), instead of looking at the people who OWN guns.

 

A gun is a tool, like I stated a few posts ago. It may be easier to go on a killing spree, but if I was well trained with a samurai blade I could probably do the same thing. It may just take a bit more time. That doesnt make the sword bad, it still just makes it a tool. Any tool, even a gardening sheer, in the hands of a BAD person, is still a tool.

 

I went shooting on Saturday.

 

The gun in my hands was no bad, even though it was in my hands. It was doing what it was made to do. Shoot. I was shooting at a target. In this instance, I was not doing anything bad at all.

 

Now, if I turned around and started shooting people, that would not make the gun bad, that would make ME bad. The gun is still doing what its always done, shoot, as a tool.

 

I was shooting at a gun range, so Im sure everyone around me was also strapped. If they saw me about to shoot people, I would have about 20 guns trained on me or shooting at me, if I do start shooting first.

 

If we personify the gun, then I guess the guns that kill me are good? Not the people? Or that the gun was someone defending its owner on its own volalition? Instead of the person defending himself with whatever tool was necessary?

[Gyre]

Well the question is: Would you use the gun on a living being? You can practice all you want but if put in the situation would you use the gun? I would not want to carry a firearm for that very purpose, not using it. If you don't put yourself in the situation you have a much less chance of authorization of deadly force with that tool. Unless you want to shoot living beings... doesn't this beg the question of why you would have a gun at all?

[dontxhide]

Well the question is: Would you use the gun on a living being? You can practice all you want but if put in the situation would you use the gun? I would not want to carry a firearm for that very purpose, not using it. If you don't put yourself in the situation you have a much less chance of authorization of deadly force with that tool. Unless you want to shoot living beings... doesn't this beg the question of why you would have a gun at all?

 

WHY would I want to put myself in a situation!? No one (who is of good mental health, and NOT a criminal) wants to put themselves in a situation where thy have to shoot someone, stab someone, or practice self defense.

 

That is why their are things called rape, random violence, muggins, attacks. Its all around the world. I can be walking down the street middle of the day, and get shot just because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I DID NOT put myself in that situation.

 

I can be sleeping and waking up, with someone walking into my bedroom with a gun ready to shoot me. THIS DOES HAPPEN ALL THE TIME. I didnt put myself in this situation. But I sure as hell want to defend myself from that situation.

[Gyre]

I suppose that is where we would differ. I think carrying around a gun says that in the situation you feel it is necessary you will use it, you, you chose to be in that situation with that choice. Why blame someone else? Because there is no rape only fear, desperation and an overall lack of mental stability or premeditation .Dictionary: The act of seizing and carrying away by force. I can find a whole lot of people who do this on many levels, most are seemingly "good" people. Circumcision? False sense of security? There is no random violence because to that person it was exactly what they were doing at the time. Unless you set up a gun to shoot people at random at a random point in the world , oh wait the idea was brought up and acted upon. Muggings happen for more than one reason, mostly on a human level of desire for more or lack of resources and general fear/desperation. If that person is in your house with a gun you didn't take enough precaution if you know this kind of thing happens. I am sorry I do not except child-like answers. You chose to be in the situation just as much as the other through whatever background that lead you to that point. People don't have to do what they do but they did and will.

[Im Your Man]

Banning guns only keeps them out of the hands of decent people. Criminals will get them either way.

 

Decent people can become criminals when they can get their hands on a gun so easily.

If we ban the guns maybe only the criminals will be criminals.

I know at least one situation in my life (and most people do too) that I would have been tempted to use a gun if I had one in my pocket at that moment. There would have been one person dead unnecessarily.

[michaelhobson]

there is no rape... There is no random violence...If that person is in your house with a gun you didn't take enough precaution...I do not except child-like answers...You chose to be in the situation.

 

With such a giant load of $#*!, I'm stepping quietly around it, so as not to get it all over my foot. Talk about child-like answers. Ugh.