Raw Food/Vegan Dieting ...Stronger/Leaner Possible??

[mango19]

Can anyone speak from experience from trying a raw food/ vegan diet, and a regular/high protein diet?

 

Which diet made you look leaner?

 

Do you think it is possible to build large muscles on a raw food diet??

[robert]

I think you can get very lean on a raw food diet, as many raw foodists seem to be, but I always had trouble building or maintaining mass on a raw or high raw vegan diet. I know other vegan bodybuilders who experienced the same.

 

Is is possible? Probably, but I don't see any benefits from bodybuilding on an all raw diet, so I have no interest in it, and have found plenty of success following a vegan bodybuilding diet with variety of all kinds of plant-based foods, cooked and raw.

[Im Your Man]

Do you think it is possible to build large muscles on a raw food diet??

We discussed it in a topic called "Protein in Fruit" (or at plurial, I don't know if you'll find it). I don't think we came to a clear conclusion/answer. There are clearly some rawists maintaining their mass on a raw diet with no supplements at all (only fruits, greens and nuts), but we haven't found any who started from scratch and clearly built mass this way, because most rawists who lift weights will at least supplement with some raw protein powders. This, there are many who do this, so it's clearly possible. For instance, just look into the training log or food log of LeanandGreen on this forum, he builted mass on a raw diet, with chlorella protein powder as a supplement.

[RawVgn]

I've done both; low-fat raw is definitely better; got cut like never before! Most raw is high fat though, so beware.

[Couture547]

From my experiance with raw food i can allmost guaranty the people that are getting weaker or not getting stronger on raw food is becasue they are not getting enough calories. Alot of raw fooders that get enough calories are getting the bulk of there calories from nuts and seeds which average 75 percent calories from fat. Don't listen to the raw food propaganda that say's as long as it's raw you can eat it in any amounts. A diet of 50 percent fat is not a healthy diet raw or not. It takes time to build up the stomach compasity to eat enough calories on raw foods becasue fresh fruits and veggies are alot less calorie dense then cooked foods or high fat raw foods.

 

Also don't listen to the hippy spirutal raw food guru's that tell you you don't need many calories. There's a reason will guy's like Wolfe are weak guys. you might need less then a sad person, but you still need to eat a surplus of calories.

[RawVgn]

I'm a super lowfat raw fooder (10% max), and I have no problem getting sufficient calories. For all practical purposes, I eat no nuts or seeds. My diet is entirely raw fruit and greens, just like our bonobo cousins. I'm also much stronger eating raw than ordinary vegan.

 

In my experience, lowfat raw vegans need substantially fewer calories than people who eat cooked food; starches, which typically constitute a large amount of an ordinary vegan diet, do not digest readily (one of the reasons they have to be cooked to help break down the encasing , non-digestable cellulose) and require a lot of energy for their digestive processes yielding relatively low net energy per calorie consumed. In my experience, I probably need 20% fewer calories eating raw to maintain my weight. At 6-1 and 174 lbs I'm slim (size 32 waist) but far from skinny, and if I wanted to gain weight I could easily eat more fruit instead of watching to not eat excessive calories. I'm 48 yrs old and can readily do the entire 310 lb stack on my gyms leg extension machine a dozen times.

 

Low-fat raw is an excellent lifestyle: it's inexpensive, fast, convenient, and yields excellent health, strength, and overall fitness with minimum effort-I work out less than an hour a week and am in very superior health. I highly recomend it.

[Couture547]

Yep that's the key. From my experiance Low fat raw is the only way to go and also fresh foods no so called super foods and all that over priced non sense.

 

174 is pretty good for not eatting a ton like you say. How many calories would you guess you get on average? How are some of your other exerices?

 

I do agree that when your eatting raw food you need less over all calories becasue your getting efficent fuel, but not to the extent as alot of raw guru's say. A big mistake i made along with alot of people getting into raw foods was not enough fresh fruits/carbs. Then my size and strength just dispeared even though i was getting a ton of calories but mainly Protein/fats

[sydneyvegan]

Do you think it is possible to build large muscles on a raw food diet??

 

No, it's not pure and simple.

It is possible to maintain muscle but it is almost impossible to build large muscles on a raw food diet, IMO

If you want to be lean and compete in endurance sports then raw is fine.

 

I was raw for a few months and lost significant strength as well as muscle mass.

The only raw foodist who has any significant size or strength is Lean and Green, and he eats more algae than anyone.

 

(When I say large muscles I mean proper large muscle. I can rep 1100lbs on Leg Press and I'm big but not huge)

[beforewisdom]

Interesting post SydneyVegan.

 

To my knowledge muscles/bodies need these things to grow:

 

1. Particular kinds of stimulation ( exercise )

2. Adequate calories.

3. An adequate amount and a proper mix of amino acids

4. Adequate and regular rest.

 

IMHO, # 3 is going to be the toughest for a raw foodist, with # 2 being the second problem, but more manageable. Everyone loves to quote how modern nutrition researchers ( who they ignore when they contradict raw food beliefs ) have stated that protein needs are lower than previously thought and how complimenting proteins is only necessary once per day.

 

What they forget is that those statements apply to avoiding a protein deficiency and staying minimally ( not optimally ) healthy. Those ideas don't work for people who to build a lot of muscle where the amount of amino acids goes up and the need for a balanced mix becomes more crucial.

 

I feel fortunate for having started off veg*ism with the amino acid charts in Diet For A Small Planet. There are many combinations of plant foods that will give you a complete and balanced mix of the 9 essential amino acids. However, the most reliable, abundant and accessible combo is legumes with whole grains. Foods which raw foodists erroneously to believe unhealthy or have trouble consuming in useful quantities raw.

[Couture547]

To say that no one can get strong on raw foods is wrong. Every animal ever has eattin raw foods and many are stronger then humans could ever imagine being. So raw foods arn't the issue. I belive it's the fact that most raw foodist arn't into muscle building in the first place, most are endurance type guys. Allso many raw foodist don't even train hard for strength which we all know is vitial for getting strong no matter what your diet is, they'd rather sit under a tree and meditate. Last but not least guys that train hard and still can't get stronger or are losing strength on raw foods is the fact that there not eatting enough carb based foods(fruits/ veg) and overall calories. This would happen on a cooked diet if you were eating 1K a day of food, or even 2 K and getting allmost all the calories from Fats and Proteins. You'd get smaller and weak on that kinda program long term. On any diet cooked or raw you must get enough calories to gain strength and size no question about it. How many guys are busting there ass strength training and eatting over 3K calories (low fat) and still not gettting stronger?

[sydneyvegan]

To say that no one can get strong on raw foods is wrong. Every animal ever has eattin raw foods and many are stronger then humans could ever imagine being. So raw foods arn't the issue.

 

No it isn't.

Humans don't have the same digestive systems as animals, so comparing their strength to ours is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

I belive it's the fact that most raw foodist arn't into muscle building in the first place, most are endurance type guys. Allso many raw foodist don't even train hard for strength which we all know is vitial for getting strong no matter what your diet is, they'd rather sit under a tree and meditate.

 

True.

They are also good at selling things and preaching.

 

Last but not least guys that train hard and still can't get stronger or are losing strength on raw foods is the fact that there not eatting enough carb based foods(fruits/ veg) and overall calories. This would happen on a cooked diet if you were eating 1K a day of food, or even 2 K and getting allmost all the calories from Fats and Proteins. You'd get smaller and weak on that kinda program long term. On any diet cooked or raw you must get enough calories to gain strength and size no question about it. How many guys are busting there ass strength training and eatting over 3K calories (low fat) and still not gettting stronger?

 

I was eating between 3500 and 4000 calories on a raw diet and hitting it hard in the gym with heavy weights.

This was when I lost strength and muscle mass.

 

Perhaps raw just doesn't work for me. I was eating a wide variety of foods in order to meet my nutritional requirements.

I didn't work for me physically and it didn't work for me financially, it costs a lot to eat raw if you eat a lot like me.

 

I'm yet to see a Raw Vegan who has significant muscle mass or strength.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

13" arms, don't count as significant muscle mass

 

I'm looking forward to seeing pics from the Raw Olympics Strength events that are coming up in Hawaii.

[RawVgn]

Calories are no problem for me on a raw diet, even though I limit fat to 10% max meaning no nuts or seeds-I eat a half an avacado a day, the rest just fruit and greens. After 6 mons or so raw, I just got real used to eating ALOT of food volume compared to regular diets. In the summer, my 4 person vegan household goes through more than 200 lbs of fruit a week-alot of it is rinds and peels though. I haven't logged my calories recently, but I've kept logs in the past so I'm pretty good at geustimating, so I figure I'm running about 2200 cals a day right now which is probably equal to about 2600 cooked.

 

Strength wise, I've never met a person in my age bracket as strong as me pound for pound. The first week I was 100% raw, I had to increase the weights I was using about 30%-the only step-wise increase I've ever experienced in 35 plus years of intermittent lifting. For the past six months I have been gradually gaining weight and increasing my lifts-I keep a journal of my workouts so the trend is quite clear.

 

My goals may be different than many people's in this forum since I have no interest in competitive body building or getting super strong. I'm purely interested in fitness for life, maintaining my strength and flexability and endurance so I can enjoy and participate in life to the fullest as long as possible. At 48, my overall fitness is off-the-charts superior to almost all my peers: I regularly compete in Jui-Jitsu against men half my age, I hike and wrestle with my 10 and 11 yr old boys, I work outdoors up in trees and on rooftops and ladders, I can run for miles almost effortlessly, I haul huge wheelbarrows of dirt in my organic garden,and so on. Aside from a movement disorder I've had since childhood, I haven't been treated for so much as a cold in nearly 2 years. I can't even remember the last time I had to take so much as an aspirin tablet or had a headache.

 

If a guy who approaches weight-lifting pretty casually like me at 48 can gain muscle on less than 10% protein, maybe it's possible to get really big if that's what your after? I gained about 10 lbs one month when I stared eating lots of raw nuts, but then I decided they weren't working good for me and cut them back out.

 

It's simple enough to experiment with raw low-fat if you want to see if it works for you. Just start eating only raw fruit and greens for a few months and see were it goes. You might be pleasantly surprised. You can always go back to regular vegan if that's what works for you. I lost 40 lbs the first several months I was raw and thought I might get to thin, then suddenly the weight just stopped coming off and I slowly started putting on muscle. Now I've put nearly 20 lbs back on and feel better than I ever have in my half-century of living.

[Couture547]

To say that no one can get strong on raw foods is wrong. Every animal ever has eattin raw foods and many are stronger then humans could ever imagine being. So raw foods arn't the issue.

 

No it isn't.

Humans don't have the same digestive systems as animals, so comparing their strength to ours is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

I belive it's the fact that most raw foodist arn't into muscle building in the first place, most are endurance type guys. Allso many raw foodist don't even train hard for strength which we all know is vitial for getting strong no matter what your diet is, they'd rather sit under a tree and meditate.

 

True.

They are also good at selling things and preaching.

 

Last but not least guys that train hard and still can't get stronger or are losing strength on raw foods is the fact that there not eatting enough carb based foods(fruits/ veg) and overall calories. This would happen on a cooked diet if you were eating 1K a day of food, or even 2 K and getting allmost all the calories from Fats and Proteins. You'd get smaller and weak on that kinda program long term. On any diet cooked or raw you must get enough calories to gain strength and size no question about it. How many guys are busting there ass strength training and eatting over 3K calories (low fat) and still not gettting stronger?

 

I was eating between 3500 and 4000 calories on a raw diet and hitting it hard in the gym with heavy weights.

This was when I lost strength and muscle mass.

 

Perhaps raw just doesn't work for me. I was eating a wide variety of foods in order to meet my nutritional requirements.

I didn't work for me physically and it didn't work for me financially, it costs a lot to eat raw if you eat a lot like me.

 

I'm yet to see a Raw Vegan who has significant muscle mass or strength.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

13" arms, don't count as significant muscle mass

 

I'm looking forward to seeing pics from the Raw Olympics Strength events that are coming up in Hawaii.

 

 

Yep i see where your coming from and it is true there's not one raw vegan at least that i know of that's a stud. There's a couple guys like Blackman who have decent strength, but he's all ways back and fourth. One min he's all frutiran next he says that's bad for strength then he's on to breathiansim. The Issue i have with raw food propaganda is the fact that if in fact it is best why are there no guys breaking world records? Then the weak small guys claim that humans are suppsoed to be 120 pounds. basically any thing there guru is they claim that's the way humans are supposed to be

 

That said i did raw foods for 2 years and got the worst strength gains of my life, but i was infulenced by all the scam artist out there and was living on so called super food powders and all that crap . recently i've gone to a whole food real food raw diet and seeing soild improvments

[Couture547]

Calories are no problem for me on a raw diet, even though I limit fat to 10% max meaning no nuts or seeds-I eat a half an avacado a day, the rest just fruit and greens. After 6 mons or so raw, I just got real used to eating ALOT of food volume compared to regular diets. In the summer, my 4 person vegan household goes through more than 200 lbs of fruit a week-alot of it is rinds and peels though. I haven't logged my calories recently, but I've kept logs in the past so I'm pretty good at geustimating, so I figure I'm running about 2200 cals a day right now which is probably equal to about 2600 cooked.

 

Strength wise, I've never met a person in my age bracket as strong as me pound for pound. The first week I was 100% raw, I had to increase the weights I was using about 30%-the only step-wise increase I've ever experienced in 35 plus years of intermittent lifting. For the past six months I have been gradually gaining weight and increasing my lifts-I keep a journal of my workouts so the trend is quite clear.

 

My goals may be different than many people's in this forum since I have no interest in competitive body building or getting super strong. I'm purely interested in fitness for life, maintaining my strength and flexability and endurance so I can enjoy and participate in life to the fullest as long as possible. At 48, my overall fitness is off-the-charts superior to almost all my peers: I regularly compete in Jui-Jitsu against men half my age, I hike and wrestle with my 10 and 11 yr old boys, I work outdoors up in trees and on rooftops and ladders, I can run for miles almost effortlessly, I haul huge wheelbarrows of dirt in my organic garden,and so on. Aside from a movement disorder I've had since childhood, I haven't been treated for so much as a cold in nearly 2 years. I can't even remember the last time I had to take so much as an aspirin tablet or had a headache.

 

If a guy who approaches weight-lifting pretty casually like me at 48 can gain muscle on less than 10% protein, maybe it's possible to get really big if that's what your after? I gained about 10 lbs one month when I stared eating lots of raw nuts, but then I decided they weren't working good for me and cut them back out.

 

It's simple enough to experiment with raw low-fat if you want to see if it works for you. Just start eating only raw fruit and greens for a few months and see were it goes. You might be pleasantly surprised. You can always go back to regular vegan if that's what works for you. I lost 40 lbs the first several months I was raw and thought I might get to thin, then suddenly the weight just stopped coming off and I slowly started putting on muscle. Now I've put nearly 20 lbs back on and feel better than I ever have in my half-century of living.

 

 

I really think the tickett with raw food is first and foremost don't listen to the scam artist trying to get people to live off of superfood powders and all this other crap. There's no magical foods out there, all fruits and veggies are good in different ways. Fresh foods will allways be better then some so called super food that was dehydrated in Wolfe's super basement and soild for 1K. that's why you are getting good results(real foods) are all your fruits fresh? no dried fruits?

[RawVgn]

One thing I've noticed being raw is you really gotta keep the fat down to get the power benefits. Best I can tell, when fat builds up in your blood it really slows down the delivery rate of sugar to your insulin receptors and noticeably reduces power output. My strength at 10% fat max is way higher than at 20 or 30%, and it's extremely easy to eat 20 or 30% fat if your eating nuts or seeds.

 

I'm not sure what a fast growth rate is for a bodybuilder trying to maximize muscle mass? I know I can put on about half a pound a week eating just fruit and greens working out less than an hour (2 to 3 15 minute all-out sessions weekly). If a 48 yr old can put on muscle like that so casually, there is no telling what a young, serious body builder might be able to do. I've only been raw 10 months and I only learned how to do super high-intensity lifting in April-I couldn't have done HIT before going raw because my joints were to painful.

 

Yeh, I'm 100% fresh-no dried, no juiced, just whl;e fresh fruit and greens and no supplements except a little B12 and an occasional omega-3 cap.

[beforewisdom]

To say that no one can get strong on raw foods is wrong. Every animal ever has eattin raw foods and many are stronger then humans could ever imagine being.

 

Dude different animals have different digestive systems. What works for one animal doesn't work for all of them.

[Couture547]

To say that no one can get strong on raw foods is wrong. Every animal ever has eattin raw foods and many are stronger then humans could ever imagine being.

 

Dude different animals have different digestive systems. What works for one animal doesn't work for all of them.

 

The same arugument that one can make against raw food is the similar that meat eaters make against veganism. A Vegan can say i haven't seen a strong raw foodist just like many meat eaters claim that most vegans are small weak guys which they are. Most meat eaters are either small and weak or fat and weak just like many vegans. The difference is raw vegans rarely have excess fat, so if there not muscular there going to be very small.

 

Just becasue humans can chew up cooked food and then get rid of it doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. I think the bottom line is that humans don't know what we should eat, or there wouldn't be a million different diets or opinions, so it's best to see what works personally. I think most here would agree if you cook a food it has less then what it had before. For every one nutrient that is more aviliable there's 100's of ones that were made less avilable.

[RawVgn]

Scientists have compared human genetic maps to other anthropoid primates and we are far more similiar than different; humans are over 98% identical to bonobos for example-and bonobos eat , for all practical purposes, only fruit and greeens. There is no question we share a common ancestor within the past 4 to 6 million years.

 

And rest assured, all raw vegans are not "small." At 6-1, 174 lbs (all muscle and bone) I'm anything but small. I work out in the Univ of Wisconsins main weight room where over 95% of the patrons are less than half my age, and I'm easily in the top 20% of the people in the gym strength wise. On many machines, I use the entire 220 to 320 stack and still don't have enough weight!

 

Look up Storm Talifero's website; he's been raw for decades and he ain't remotely small.

 

I just think the very, very few raw vegans out there (I'd estimate less than 1 in 5000 people is raw, let alone raw low-fat) are simultaneously into high-intensity lifting, the kind you need to build muscle. Maybe 1/10th of raw vegans are also low-fat, which is almost certainly a prerequisite for a body-builder physique, So figure maybe 1 in 50,000 people is low-fat raw, then add the combination of being into weight-lifting and knowing enough about it to understand the intensity required for growth. Your probably talking about a one in five million person who fits in this category; the odds of coming across such a person is very, very low.

[VeganEssentials]

I work out in the Univ of Wisconsins main weight room where over 95% of the patrons are less than half my age, and I'm easily in the top 20% of the people in the gym strength wise.

 

Hijack alert!

 

Didn't know you were also in Wisconsin - which university are you located by? Just curious, as I don't see too many people from the board located in our state.

[Couture547]

Scientists have compared human genetic maps to other anthropoid primates and we are far more similiar than different; humans are over 98% identical to bonobos for example-and bonobos eat , for all practical purposes, only fruit and greeens. There is no question we share a common ancestor within the past 4 to 6 million years.

 

And rest assured, all raw vegans are not "small." At 6-1, 174 lbs (all muscle and bone) I'm anything but small. I work out in the Univ of Wisconsins main weight room where over 95% of the patrons are less than half my age, and I'm easily in the top 20% of the people in the gym strength wise. On many machines, I use the entire 220 to 320 stack and still don't have enough weight!

 

Look up Storm Talifero's website; he's been raw for decades and he ain't remotely small.

 

I just think the very, very few raw vegans out there (I'd estimate less than 1 in 5000 people is raw, let alone raw low-fat) are simultaneously into high-intensity lifting, the kind you need to build muscle. Maybe 1/10th of raw vegans are also low-fat, which is almost certainly a prerequisite for a body-builder physique, So figure maybe 1 in 50,000 people is low-fat raw, then add the combination of being into weight-lifting and knowing enough about it to understand the intensity required for growth. Your probably talking about a one in five million person who fits in this category; the odds of coming across such a person is very, very low.

 

What are some of your free weight lifts? Like Bench, Military, Squat, Deadlift.

[RawVgn]

I rarely use free weights because I don't workout on a schedule that is suitable for a partner. Without a spotter, its really hard for me to work to complete failure with free weights as I do with machines. I also never do 1 lift maxs as I feel that is real dangerous too.

 

I usually start a workout with something like leg extensions. I'm currently using 310 lbs x 12 reps (the whole stack, could probably do more). I do 170lbs x 10 reps of machine flys, 110 lbs x 10 reps of cable curls near the end of my routine, 220 x 12 lat pulldowns, 110 x 12 tricep pulldowns, 215 x 10 deadlifts, etc. Keep in mind, I only discovered high-intensity lifting 6 months ago and my strength is still increasing.

 

My wife and kids and I just moved to Madison about a year ago. I workout at the SERF which is right next to the Kohl basketball center.

[el_flaco]

I rarely use free weights because I don't workout on a schedule that is suitable for a partner. Without a spotter, its really hard for me to work to complete failure with free weights as I do with machines. I also never do 1 lift maxs as I feel that is real dangerous too.

Neither are dangerous. In fact I think heavy use of machines would carry a greater long-term risk due to being forced into artificial movement patterns.

[Guest]

I rarely use free weights because I don't workout on a schedule that is suitable for a partner. Without a spotter, its really hard for me to work to complete failure with free weights as I do with machines. I also never do 1 lift maxs as I feel that is real dangerous too.

 

Do you go outside? It's horribly dangerous, you know.

[blabbate]

I rarely use free weights because I don't workout on a schedule that is suitable for a partner. Without a spotter, its really hard for me to work to complete failure with free weights as I do with machines. I also never do 1 lift maxs as I feel that is real dangerous too.

Do you go outside? It's horribly dangerous, you know.

When I do my 1 rep max squats, I like to get the bar up, take about 30 or 40 steps away from the rack, preferably into the middle of the aerobics area, and push as hard as I can with my lower back.

[Guest]

When I do my 1 rep max squats, I like to get the bar up, take about 30 or 40 steps away from the rack, preferably into the middle of the aerobics area, and push as hard as I can with my lower back.

 

That's exactly what I'm doing to correct my posture and sort out that annoying lower back pain. So far, so good.