The BIG Three - Four Months Away ( Lean & Green, Octo, Rob)

[VeganEssentials]

Am I the lone person to defend L&G on this one?

 

I call those valid depth for 1/4 squats based on what is about parallel for L&G. There's about 12" or so between the bar and the pins, and he goes to at least halfway on each one, so there's about a 6" or so ROM on each rep. Considering that depth to parallel is technically the length of your leg from the knee to hip joint, most men will find that about a 22" to 26" distance from top to parallel is about average to hit exact parallel (add a few inches if you go well below parallel). So, I will back up that they're 1/4 in depth based on that.

 

As far as his reasons, I have to concur that I agree with his motives for doing them. L&G has stated the same things for experience as I have - when my squatting was at its best, I was doing lots of heavy partials at the end of my leg workout because, quite simply, they work for us. Not to sound like I'm tooting horns here, but to my knowledge, L&G and I are the only people here to have managed 500+ lb. full squats to parallel, so we've learned a few things in our time about the value of adding in some unorthodox lifts that do have use in aiding a full squat. While there are a lot of naysayers about 1/4 squats and proper depth, reasons for doing them, how bad they are for knees, etc., the two of us have learned that they're excellent training tools (just one part of the equation for leg strength), and we both know that we were are our best because of how they helped in our training protocol. I'm not saying that EVERYONE will benefit from them, but I have faith that L&G will display a 500+ lb. full squat again in the future (as well as myself), and when we do, we'll both be crediting this short-range movement for helping us to get there. So, while a lot of people have displayed doubt, how many of you have been able to add 75+ lbs. to your full squat in a year? When I did, it was based around 1/4 squats as my main movement after full squats, so I've seen firsthand as to the value they can have in a routine. Again, my usual disclaimer here, it's what worked for me and in no way guarantees anyone else will gain anything from it. But, it's a lot better than believing that you're going to improve your squat through leg presses, quad extensions, etc. which don't even begin to mimic what a true squat does. Just something to think about - if your squat isn't going up regularly, then perhaps it's time to consider something you normally wouldn't have thought of doing in the past, even if it seems unusual or stupid at this moment

[ralst]

Am I the lone person to defend L&G on this one?

 

Yes Though no one (or at least I'm not) is attacking L&G, just constructively criticizing his squat video

 

I call those valid depth for 1/4 squats based on what is about parallel for L&G. There's about 12" or so between the bar and the pins, and he goes to at least halfway on each one, so there's about a 6" or so ROM on each rep. Considering that depth to parallel is technically the length of your leg from the knee to hip joint, most men will find that about a 22" to 26" distance from top to parallel is about average to hit exact parallel (add a few inches if you go well below parallel). So, I will back up that they're 1/4 in depth based on that.

 

You could be right. It's hard to tell from the video, especially as it's only a matter of a few inches. But, somewhat off-topic, the 22" to 26" figure doesn't take into account forward knee drift. If you squat like Vogelpohl knee drift doesn't have to be taken account, but few of us do.

 

As far as his reasons, I have to concur that I agree with his motives for doing them. L&G has stated the same things for experience as I have - when my squatting was at its best, I was doing lots of heavy partials at the end of my leg workout because, quite simply, they work for us. Not to sound like I'm tooting horns here, but to my knowledge, L&G and I are the only people here to have managed 500+ lb. full squats to parallel, so we've learned a few things in our time about the value of adding in some unorthodox lifts that do have use in aiding a full squat. While there are a lot of naysayers about 1/4 squats and proper depth, reasons for doing them, how bad they are for knees, etc., the two of us have learned that they're excellent training tools (just one part of the equation for leg strength), and we both know that we were are our best because of how they helped in our training protocol. I'm not saying that EVERYONE will benefit from them, but I have faith that L&G will display a 500+ lb. full squat again in the future (as well as myself), and when we do, we'll both be crediting this short-range movement for helping us to get there. So, while a lot of people have displayed doubt, how many of you have been able to add 75+ lbs. to your full squat in a year? When I did, it was based around 1/4 squats as my main movement after full squats, so I've seen firsthand as to the value they can have in a routine. Again, my usual disclaimer here, it's what worked for me and in no way guarantees anyone else will gain anything from it. But, it's a lot better than believing that you're going to improve your squat through leg presses, quad extensions, etc. which don't even begin to mimic what a true squat does. Just something to think about - if your squat isn't going up regularly, then perhaps it's time to consider something you normally wouldn't have thought of doing in the past, even if it seems unusual or stupid at this moment

 

Fair point. 1/4 squats are probably going to have more carry over than leg press. And since when do leg extensions have any carry-over? So you're right there.

 

I think my main objection to the video/commentary was that it seemed (to me, and I could be mistaken) that L&G was posting the video as a demonstration of a supposedly impressive feat. And it's simply not. Again, that's just IMHO. L&G can post whatever he wants, obviously, but I'd just rather see a real squat, instead of an assistance exercise that's A) hard to quantify and B) apparently only of value to 500+ lb squatters

 

Edit: I'll liken it to my 20-lb db hammer curls the other night. Those may have a training effect for me, but I definitely wouldn't post a video of it

 

And hey, some of us are working on getting a 500+ squat (although in my case I'll probably have to get to 400 first)

 

I have a few questions about your squat training, VE, but I'll PM you so as not to clutter up this thread *too* much. Even if it's already too late for that.

[Zack]

So, while a lot of people have displayed doubt, how many of you have been able to add 75+ lbs. to your full squat in a year?

 

me me me!

[robert]

I still argue the psychological aspect of partial reps for the following reasons. Using heavy weights for a variety of exercises reduces fear of that weight, and gives confidence in future lifts in future workouts. It helps the body adapt to a specific workload and let's us know "we've lifted this before" and we feel much more at ease doing it again, or going up in weight.

 

For example, how many people do you know that have pressed 100's for chest press but never even tried 105's? I bet it is a very, very high percentage of people who can press 100's but have never even tried more (excluding powerlifters, most bodybuilders, etc.). I'm just talking about regular people who workout. We hit 100 lb dumbbells and that is a milestone and we never try for anything more. Why is that? We fear something. One way to overcome that is to do partial reps with 105's until it becomes comfortable and then they become full ROM unassisted reps with that weight. Then you move up even higher and all of a sudden you look at a 100 or 105 lb dumbbell and it looks easy, looks like fun, and not some intimidating challenge that is yet to be overcome. I suspect my hypothesis is true, that most people capable of pressing 100's for a few reps, never try any more than that. But I bet if they did some assisted partial reps with a higher weight they would then move up beyond that limiting barrier.

 

I was in that same boat...for five years or more I never tried more than 100's. I didn't think I could do them full ROM so I didn't bother. A few months ago, I gave it a try with a spotter watching and assisting when I needed it. I did this for workout after workout, pressing more than I could handle on my own (assisted reps, but similar to partial reps as in squats). Sure enough, within a short amount of time I was pressing 105's on my own. Psychologically, I'm not intimidated by them, in fact I moved up to 110's and I can do those for unassisted reps as well. I will follow this same approach of partial reps, and assisted reps as I do more and more weight for the psychological and mental benefits and obviously the strength benefits as well.

 

This week I was chatting with a guy at the gym who saw me with the 110's and he benches well over 500 and talked about many psychological aspects of heavy partial reps (which he was doing that day) and how the mind triggers in certain ways when under certain stress and how to calm that and overcome it. It was quite insightful and helpful.

 

I too support the idea of partial reps but I come at it from a psychological standpoint. I invite you to observe "average" lifters in the gym who can press 100's and watch to see if they ever try 105's or even ask them if they have, and I am confident you will find your results to match my postulation and hypothesis.

 

That being said, I'm a fan of full range of motion but I'm also a supporter of heavy partial reps that lead to increased workload capability in full range of motion in future lifts.

[el_flaco]

L&G and I are the only people here to have managed 500+ lb. full squats to parallel

Bastard

 

Well, speaking as the only man to total over 1400lbs here...

 

Strong guys do all kinds of stupid things. If you take any worthless exercise, dodgy supplement or wacky diet from the last 30 years, I guarantee you you will find strong guys who did that. I used to neck vanadyl sulphate and do heavy wide-grip shrugs to widen the shoulders, holding onto the plates rather than the bar.

 

Nobody is saying partial squats will prevent you squatting heavy, or even that they don't help. I just think done with the ROM shown they aren't worth the effort (and certainly not worth the video, or the initial braggadocio in the workout reports). This is no knock at all against L&G, I knew a strongman competitor back in the 90s (back before it got trendy ) who did partial squats very similarly.

 

There's also an associated injury risk. Am I right in thinking the only guys who have managed a 500+ lb full squat in the past can't currently achieve this feat? Perhaps they engaged in some sub-optimal training practices which affected their longevity?

 

Robert - I think there's a huge difference between dumbell press with some assistance through the sticking point and these short-range squats. These squats go nowhere near any kind of sticking point. No-one is arguing against all partial ROM or assisted reps here.

[Im Your Man]

I do all kinds of partial reps for squats and bench press on the guided bar or with stack rack with heavier weights that I normally could, as well as isometrics or static position with a free weight heavier than what I could move for few reps. Like Robert said it surely can have positive effects on the psychic and confidence or at least a placebo effect. But it surely has physical advantage especially if you do the partial rep in the middle position where it hits the muscle for maximal gain of strength like it's the case for isometrics.

[Zack]

braggadocio

 

 

plenty of that around here...lol

[VeganEssentials]

Alright, I'll make this my last post about this as things are getting way too off track here. Let's get this thing back to what it should be about, which is backing our guys who are competing in the near future

 

Strong guys do all kinds of stupid things. If you take any worthless exercise, dodgy supplement or wacky diet from the last 30 years, I guarantee you you will find strong guys who did that. I used to neck vanadyl sulphate and do heavy wide-grip shrugs to widen the shoulders, holding onto the plates rather than the bar.

 

Of course, I've done stupid things. I used to buy semi-worthless supplements (EAS should have been paying me royalties for how much of their junk I would use in years past), I've done some lifts that weren't really that beneficial, and done more wacky diets over the years than I can remember. BUT...that's not to say that I didn't get any benefit from them, nor does it mean that I didn't learn from my experiences with these things. It's when people are afraid to give something different a shot and won't leave their comfort zone because they've come to believe the "experts" statements that call certain things B.S. that it becomes a problem. For example, the routines you'll find in your average newsstand muscle mag are not going to be ideal for the average non-juiced trainee, but that doesn't mean that they won't get some benefit from doing 50 sets of decline flyes because Joe Pro said that's what he does. Said trainee might not make miraculous results and obviously won't be stepping onto the Olympia stage the following year, but still, it's just experimenting in the quest for learning what works for each person as well as what doesn't. I look at it in that, if someone would want to build strength by pulling a brick-loaded rickshaw around all day, and if they're making progress, more power to them. It's not what I would do, but I can't say that it might not be beneficial to some people to do so - it's simply a matter of trying out what sounds interesting and feasible to do in order to advance one's progress. What one person may enjoy and find to be good for improving themselves may not be the same for another, but unless it's something that unquestionably does not have the ability to help make progress (such as, thinking that hitting yourself in the face with a baseball bat will increase biceps size), then I say, more power to someone for doing what they do.

 

I still do things that some people consider to be detrimental and injury-provoking, such as wide-grip behind the neck presses all the way down to the traps at the start of each rep. Since I'm not getting injured, they cause me no pain, and have managed to keep my strict press numbers from dropping even with a 30 lb. weight loss, does that mean that they're dangerous? Some people will say yes, that I'm just tempting the fates with something that "experts" say is going to make my shoulder pop out one day, but when I see workout logs of people who have done them for years and are strong as sh*t, why would I be convinced that they don't have value? We tend to promote and support what we like to do ourselves and work to convince others that things we don't like (whether reasons are from past experience or simply what we've heard from others) are not worth doing, even if that's not necessarily true. But, I'm getting off course here...

 

Nobody is saying partial squats will prevent you squatting heavy, or even that they don't help. I just think done with the ROM shown they aren't worth the effort (and certainly not worth the video, or the initial braggadocio in the workout reports). This is no knock at all against L&G, I knew a strongman competitor back in the 90s (back before it got trendy ) who did partial squats very similarly.

 

I still have to disagree. It's beneficial to building overall strength simply to stand in one place with a heavy bar draped over your shoulders without any movement, so even though L&G may have used a short range of motion, I don't think that means it doesn't have benefits. When I load up a few hundred lbs. more than I can squat and just hold a bar for time, I feel it in my body from top to bottom, so it's definitely making me work hard even if I don't move. And, if I can only hold a set weight for 30 seconds at first and then can easily hold it for 60 seconds a few sessions later, I'm getting stronger, so to me, that means something in relation to overall progress. I'm not saying it's going to bring your full squat up drastically, but again, there's a big mental aspect to not considering your normal weights to feel heavy, so whatever it takes to get beyond a hurdle, if it works, go for it. I just look at it the same as anything else - I credit overhead holds with helping my confidence in overhead pressing as well as for increasing my core strength to support more weight overall, so whether it's a 6" ROM squat, 4" ROM deadlift or 1" ROM overhead lockout with far more weight than one can press, there's something beneficial that can come out of it.

 

There's also an associated injury risk. Am I right in thinking the only guys who have managed a 500+ lb full squat in the past can't currently achieve this feat? Perhaps they engaged in some sub-optimal training practices which affected their longevity?

 

I can safely say, heavy quarter squats weren't one of the factors that contributed to my decline. I haven't always done things the best way (such as, never, ever warming up for nearly 12 years of lifting and diving straight into heavy stuff the moment I walked into the gym), but most of the reasons I've been injured have been more due to how I've done my training with no warm-ups and going too heavy too quickly, rather than by doing lifts that are putting me in excessive jeopardy. It all started with damage done holding on to an overhead log press way too long, then deadlifting was the major cause of exacerbation of the original problem (not so much now, but for about 3 years, it was definitely one thing that brought back the problem a few times). Actually, heavy weight on my back with partials helped my back to feel better more quickly, so even though it seems odd, I consider heavy partials to be part of my rehab work I can't speak so much for L&G, but if you go back to his intro posts, you can see that he was a pretty big dude when he was at his peak. Looks to me like he's working his way back up well enough, but going more the bodybuilding route this time around vs. being mostly strength-focused. We all can hit our rough patches, but to me, what's important is being able to bounce back and eventually get better rather than have a moment of glory and then burn out. I know I WILL squat 500+ again in the future, but between a few years of back problems and my eye condition affecting how I can train, it might just take me a little longer to get there

[ralst]

Alright, I'll make this my last post about this as things are getting way too off track here. Let's get this thing back to what it should be about, which is backing our guys who are competing in the near future

 

Agreed. All that really matters here is that L&G and Robert and Octo are getting ready to compete, and from the photos shown on this thread, it looks like they're doing damn well. In spite of mine or anyone else's opinions of 1/4 squats

 

- Eric

[robert]

Thanks, we'll likely start a new thread too, which is full of photos, updates, etc.

 

We're really working hard, have dedicated our lives to this and will make a difference. I know not everyone is going to like our training styles and everyone is going to have their own opinion on what we should or should not do. That is totally natural and we except that as the people who are in the position we're in, representing this movement and this lifestyle. Sure, some people will even call us names or criticize us is various ways and it's all part of being a bodybuilder. We'll try to turn it into motivation rather than feeling down and we'll all do a pretty good job of that the further we get into this and more feedback we get. All the positive, negative, constructive, and other types of feedback is all helpful in its own way.

 

On a global scale, by percentages, only a handful of people know first hand what it is like to be a competitive bodybuilder, and it isn't an easy thing. The diet and training are the easy parts compared to the expectations we have, and the critiques we endure, but we know it is all part of the game and we are focused on what we need to do to accomplish our vision.

 

Of course we're enthusiastic and excited and posting new personal best lifts and pumping our fists when we excel and improve. This is one of most exciting times of my life. Can you image, competing, representing the Vegan Bodybuilding lifestyle while two of your good friends are right there with you, every step of the way? It's an incredible feeling. Have you noticed (for me personally) my journal? I have only missed 2 workouts in 2 months or so (which is good for me) and those were because I was in a small town in Hawaii and didn't have a gym nearby (which is why I did over 1,000 push-ups in one day), and trained on the beach. I'm having more fun training than I have in years and that is a wonderful thing for veganism and for me personally.

 

We know we're going to take some heat and we know we'll be criticized. We're just working very hard to put our best foot forward for our cause and that is 100% sincere and authentic and we believe in it so much. We've been fundraising, have earned our own sponsors, have been training hard, dieting, and bonding as a team. We do hope to be supported and we realize the forum is behind us but we're also ready to go at it without a lot of support. We'll likely be the only vegan athletes at the entire contest (which is standard) and we'll have to put our best physique on display to quiet our non-vegan critics. Of course there is a chance we'll fail, but it means a lot to us and we're planning on succeeding.

 

It has been an incredible journey and we just started. We have 10 weeks left until the competition. We're all 3 hyper-sensitive by nature and bodybuilding makes anyone more vulnerable but we're hanging in there, we're fighting hard and we will represent this community and lifestyle well in 10 weeks in Arizona.

 

Thanks so much for all the support, the feedback, the constructive criticism, etc. It helps and allows us to look at things differently. We're always going to be enthusiastic and will share highlights because we're doing something that is meaningful and rewarding in our lives and that in itself is very worthwhile. Thanks again to all of you who have contributed to our efforts in all the ways you have.

 

I'm off to the gym for a second workout now.....cardio time.

[Momentum]

Can't wait to see more progress!

[xjohanx]

I agree with Ralst. I would rather see videos of you doing full squats with 300.

How you train is your beeswax (I personally get a lot of shit for doing forced reps when pressing) but partial squats really doesn't make a good video.

[Devils Plaything]

I don't have an opinion on whether or not that kind of squat is worthwhile, but I wonder is there something wrong with being gay?

You know that "gay" can also mean something like "sillily happy", right? Well that's just not the right mindset for lifting!

[el_flaco]

I still have to disagree. It's beneficial to building overall strength simply to stand in one place with a heavy bar draped over your shoulders without any movement, so even though L&G may have used a short range of motion, I don't think that means it doesn't have benefits.

I think you're making an argument where none exists. Read my posts, all I've said is that personally, I wouldn't do them. I've never said no benefit, I've said not enough to merit them. If I'm going to do partial ROM, I'll go for a larger ROM than L&G. Maybe go with his workout until the half squats. Once you've half-squatted with 100lbs more than you can handle, what's to be accomplished by the partials?

 

We know we're going to take some heat and we know we'll be criticized.

Really

 

I doubt there is anyone on this or any other vegan board hoping that vegans competing in bodybuilding (or in sport) fail. Any "heat" on this thread came from comments like these, which I guess were viewed as being economical with the truth:

He was too busy squatting like 560 pounds

Just squatted 560, throw some plates on it;

[robert]

It was a great workout for Lean and Green and I today and we had our camera with us.

 

Here are a few pics and videos....Lean and Green will post his soon too:

 

We're having a lot of fun and making some great gains!

 

February 18, 2009 updates:

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob1-1.jpg

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob11.jpg

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob9.jpg

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob3-1.jpg

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob12.jpg

 

 

Tri and Tri --- Lean and Green in the background:

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob2-1.jpg

 

 

Warming up with 105's getting ready for 110's:

 

 

 

110's - I struggled on my own so I had Lean and Green get the first rep going for me. It's not the prettiest set in the world, but it's what I did and some sets are better than others. It felt good and I'm continuing to get more comfortable with 105's and 110's each workout. I know can go a bit deeper and as I get deeper I should continue to get stronger. 115's are near. I want to get 110's for a few more reps, and a bit deeper and then move up.

 

[Vegan Joe]

Hey big Boy where'd you get those Muskels?

[robert]

I got them because of the support I've received from you and from others....without it my journey would be far more challenging. Bodybuilding it tough, expensive, draining and can be overwhelming. No doubt about it. I even through a fit today, even though I'm a motivational speaker. Everything has to be perfect because everything we eat, every weight we touch, etc. matters, especially only 10 weeks away from being on stage.

 

We're having fun and that is one of the most important things. We're motivating each other (all 3 of us) and we're working very hard, there is no question about that.

 

We're making a difference and that makes it all worthwhile.

 

Here's a few more pics:

 

Caught off guard = funny face:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob5-1.jpg

 

Brought the calves with me:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob4-1.jpg

 

Just chilling:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob7.jpg

 

Always a thumbs up...gotta have fun!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/VeganBodybuilder/Bodybuilding%20Photos/Rob10.jpg