Really sick and tired of making no progress.....

[veggieprincess]

You're right, from what he wrote it didn't seem that high in fat, so I accounted for that. I assumed that he didn't eat a dry salad, as most people put some form of oil or dressing on it. I assumed that the noodles or couscous wasn't completely dry, so I threw in a conservative amount of oil, so if seitan man does indeed eat his foods dry with no oils, then about 20 to 30 grams of fat would be subtracted from that number, thus taking the calories down even further.

 

The fat in the diet is actually right on target in my opinion though. Your body uses healthy fats. It's more the higher carb, higher sugar, lower protein ratios I was noticing...

[xjohanx]

I don't really like gyms to be honest and was actually thinking of creating my own 'weights' by filling plastic water jugs with sand etc. Surely chin ups and tricep dips are good exercises for bulding up biceps and triceps though?

 

Nothing wrong with those excersises but obviously they are not enough. As I said, muscles are not built by high rep work. Most people on this forum probably do 5 different excersises that involve biceps and then 5 other ones for triceps. Not isolation maybe but bench press, incline press, shoulder press etc etc. The thing is that for many people volume variation is the key to sucessful muscle growth, and you can't do that because you've limited yourself to bodyweight only. A "normal" person can choose at what rep range they want to reach muscle fatigue by simply adjusting the weight, you can't.

What is it you dislike about gyms? Have you tried different ones and disliked them all or what's the deal?

Sand jugs is a start, but I doubt it's enough.

I don't really understand you to be honest. There are a lot of people like you on training forums, specially vegan ones. You explain how hard you find it to not like your own physique and that you really really want to change it, yet you set these limitations that makes it almost impossible to achieve the goals you've set.

 

I know enough about nutrition to stay healthy, but this is what my typical meal plan for a day would be:

 

Breakfast: Museli or oatmeal with banana, soy milk, pumpkin seeds. Maybe beans on toast. Cereal bar.

 

Mid morning: Couscous or mixed bean salad, maybe some fruit.

 

Lunch: Large salad with either tofu or fake meat, sometimes falafel. Soy yoghurt. Sometimes wholemeal bread based sandwiches.

 

Dinner: Could be seitan and noodles, veggie burgers and mixed veg, lentil casserole. Sometimes rice and beans.

 

Late night snack: Fruit or a few pieces of soy meat, with hummus.

 

During the day I drink nettle tea, sometimes green tea or normal tea with soy milk.

 

I'm sorry but this looks like my meal"plan" before I started working out or even caring about what I ate. It's neither a fat loss plan or a muscle building plan. I find nothing weird about your lack of results at all. Do you have a pre- and or post-workout drink/meal?

I'm going to be honest here, not saying you should exclude all these foods but maybe limiting them is a good idea since they are suboptimal for a body recomposition.

 

Cereal bar (at best case scenario this is whole grains and dried fruit, nothing else. Worst case, don't get me started)

Muesli (again, best case: dried fruit and whole grains)

Toast (yes, that's how you loose body fat, not)

Couscous

Falafel (ffs, if this is the real deal I don't know what you were thinking. It's DEEP FRIED FOOD)

Bread/sandwhices (energy dense, far from ideal when it comes to weight loss)

Noodles (????)

Seitan/veggie burgers/soy meat (totally depends on what they contain but usually store bought burgers are high in fat, weird vegetable oils, and refined carbs)

Rice (this better be whole grain)

Hummus (please say this isn't loaded with olive oil)

 

Grains aren't bad in my opinion, but to eat it 3-4 times a day when you want to loose weight is not okay. I would say keep the oats and skip the rest, limit yourself to one serving of grains per day. Bread gives little satiety per calorie, it's very energy dense and is not a good idea to consume during a weight loss diet.

You want to 1) loose fat 2) keep your muscles/build more. 1) demands that your energy intake is less than what your body uses and 2) demands a lot of protein. In other words you need to keep your energy% from protein high. Grains is not the way to do this, neither is oils or greasy fake meats, right? Nuts/seeds are kind of the same thing but they are good in other ways (minerals, satiety and taste). Your main focus should be on beans, TVP, protein powders, vegetables, fruits (preferably berries) and amino acid supplements. Fake meats work if you choose low-fat ones (look after chicken substitutes, usually they are the lowest in fat).

A good classic way to keep calories low is to limit the amount of meals to the 3 big ones, breakfast, lunch and dinner. Of course you can sneak in a workout shake inbetween if you feel like it. Personally I prefer to eat 3 x 500 kcal than 5 x 300 kcal, to be perfectly honest 2 x 750 kcal is even better for me. Obviously you are eating too much or moving too little and eating 5 meals a day might not be the way to go for you. Oh and please try to get around 2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight, it will help you.

[seitan_man]

Well I had no idea my diet was so bad, although I wouldn't know where to start with regard to creating an optimal one if the one I have been eating is so off the mark.

 

Having said that if I ask people to suggest an alternative diet plan I likely won't get much help, only vague suggestions.

 

Maybe there are 'so many people like me' on training forums because there is so little in the way of help out there for vegans wanting to get in shape.......unless they part with large amounts of cash.

[xjohanx]

Well I had no idea my diet was so bad, although I wouldn't know where to start with regard to creating an optimal one if the one I have been eating is so off the mark.

 

Having said that if I ask people to suggest an alternative diet plan I likely won't get much help, only vague suggestions.

 

Maybe there are 'so many people like me' on training forums because there is so little in the way of help out there for vegans wanting to get in shape.......unless they part with large amounts of cash.

 

Do you know how many calories you can eat at maintenance, meaning when you don't gain or loose any weight? Do you have any allergies or foods that you really hate? Do you mind consuming protein powders and/or amino acid supplements?

Do you feel the need to eat 5 times a day or do you do it because of the whole "meal frequency"-thing?

[el_flaco]

I think the analysis of your diet is well over the top. It's not so bad. The most important thing is to make sure that you are getting enough calories and with no idea of what portions you deal yourself any further analysis is completely moot.

 

I've met hundreds of people who have built impressive physiques without cutting carbs and while following "bad" diets. I've never gone low carb in my life. Why feel bad, weaken yourself and impact on your wellbeing?

 

It seems pretty clear to me the primary problem is your attitude to exercise. I've never met anyone who developed an impressive physique through lifting water jugs. Not one. Why try to break new ground?

 

If you want the physique so badly go to a good gym. Get good lifting advice. Post up some videos of you lifting weights and get some technique advice. If you are moving solid weights and not gaining size, then we'll deal with the minutae.

[blabbate]

I don't really like gyms to be honest and was actually thinking of creating my own 'weights' by filling plastic water jugs with sand etc. Surely chin ups and tricep dips are good exercises for bulding up biceps and triceps though?

Not by themselves, not really. Dips are great, but chin ups should use your back just as much as your biceps. I do at least 3 different exercises each for biceps and triceps, and those are just supplementary to the compound exercises. For instance, my triceps work right now consists of dips, close-grip bench presses, and extensions (or pressdowns), all of which come after a routine of deadlifts, good mornings, and some supplementary quad exercises (and then followed by interval cardio). On other days, specifically upper-body push/pull days, they get an indirect workout from flat barbell bench presses, incline dumbbell presses, etc. And even after doing this for a while, my tris aren't where I'd like them to be. It takes a lot of time, work, and food.

 

And just to echo johan, the diet needs some work, but not a ton. Too many processed foods and bad fats. But the biggest thing: if you aren't keeping track of exactly what you're eating, you aren't doing everything you can. Weigh everything you eat. Keep track of macronutrients, types of fat, fiber, even vitamins and minerals if you want to be thorough. Find your maintenance caloric intake. No more cereal bars, falafels, and processed carbs.

 

I do about 30 mins cardio a day, sometimes more depending on how tired I am after work.

This is going to come out very asshole-ish, but you can't cut back on exercise because you're tired after work and still claim that you're doing everything you can. Getting the body you want is going to take sacrifices. 30 minutes of cardio is the minimum I do on my off days because I know I need it to stay in shape. You might need more or you might need less, but it's going to take hard work to find out and harder work to keep it up.

 

We'll help you every step of the way as long as you're willing to be conscientious and detailed and kick ass in the gym.

[CollegeB]

You can invest less time in cardio if you increase intensity. Sprinting up a hill is going to be way better for your goals than just jogging on a treadmill with no incline for half an hour. Of course you can't make hills appear or may not have access or even want to get outside to run on a hill, but the point being there is variety for cardio and how you use it matters, not just putting time in. I hate doing cardio. I struggle with this all the time.

[Marcina]

I noticed that you posted that you don't want to join a gym and work with free weights..

 

I'm gonna state it again: If whatever you're doing isn't working for you, you need to change it. Bodybuilders do it all the time to avoid plateauing.

 

I wish I could give you more specific tips for your diet and exercise program, but unfortunately, what works for one person won't necessarily work for another.

[CollegeB]

Actually Marcina holds the keys to vegan fitness dominance, she's just keeping it a secret!

[seitan_man]

Well it looks like I know even less that I thought about diet and training and feel like I am back to square one. Maybe I should just sign up for veggieprincess' program and forget the last few years of my life?

 

If I was going to buy weights, I would be limited by space so would only be really able to buy dumbells. As I have very little strength though I do think that at the start I could use jugs filled with sand as they can seem heavy to me.

 

Dare I ask what a decent meal plan would look like compared to my carb heavy, sugar heavy, low protein one?

[blabbate]

Well it looks like I know even less that I thought about diet and training and feel like I am back to square one.

Nah, not square one. You know how to lift and your diet isn't that bad. You just need to refine, not start over.

 

Maybe I should just sign up for veggieprincess' program and forget the last few years of my life?

Ha! The last few years haven't been a waste. Although I'm 100% sure you'd get your money's worth out of vp's program.

 

Dare I ask what a decent meal plan would look like compared to my carb heavy, sugar heavy, low protein one?

Well, let's look at what you posted:

 

- Breakfast: Museli or oatmeal with banana, soy milk, pumpkin seeds. Maybe beans on toast. Cereal bar.

 

Oatmeal, banana, soy milk, and seeds are all good. Beans also good. Toast and cereal bar, not so much. Almost any sort of "bar" should only be used when real food isn't available or convenient. Instead, you might add in some more fresh fruit, a tofu omelet or scramble, or even some really unprocessed granola/cereal. I like to toss in a dash of flax seed or oil with my breakfast, too.

 

-Mid morning: Couscous or mixed bean salad, maybe some fruit.

 

Couscous is ... meh. It's essentially a pasta. You'd be better off with something like quinoa. Mixed bean salad is great. Nuts would be good, and how about some veggies?

 

-Lunch: Large salad with either tofu or fake meat, sometimes falafel. Soy yoghurt. Sometimes wholemeal bread based sandwiches.

 

Tofu is better than fake meat. You might also use tempeh or seitan. Falafels are generally deep fried, so avoid them. Instead, have the chickpeas whole right on the salad. Even using gram/chickpea flour to make pancakes or patties is better than falafels. Soy yogurt can be good or bad depending on what's in it, so be careful. If it's not a good, unprocessed, high-protein yogurt, maybe reduce the portion and add some berries. And as for sandwiches, again, it depends on exactly what you're using. Most bread is pretty bad, but as far as cheats go a little whole grain or good pumpernickle or rye isn't terrible. The best option is something sprouted, like Ezekiel. And fill the sandwich with veggies, not fake meats.

 

-Dinner: Could be seitan and noodles, veggie burgers and mixed veg, lentil casserole. Sometimes rice and beans.

 

Noodles vary, but generally aren't great. They're mostly refined wheat or other grains. If you can find good ones (or use shirataki), great, but be careful. Veggie burgers are usually processed to death, so keep them to a minimum as with all fake meats. Look for ones with the fewest ingredients and watch the macros. Better would be to make your own or to use tempeh, TVP, etc. I like to have lots and lots of veggies here, since it's later in the day.

 

-Late night snack: Fruit or a few pieces of soy meat, with hummus.

 

It's debated a lot, but some folks say to stay away from sugary carbs late at night. If you're going to have fruit, berries are the way to go. As always, watch the fake meat. And check the macros on your hummus. Is it mostly protein? Mostly fat? Be sure you know exactly what you're eating.

 

Like I said, it's about refining. You seem to have a lot of fake meats, a few refined grains, and a few bad fats, but that's all. Replace the fake meats with tofu/seitan/tempeh/tvp, minimize or replace the bad carbs, and eliminate the bad fats and you're in good shape. I highly recommend keeping track of exactly what you eat for a week or so, then coming back here and posting it. Count those macronutrients! You might be surprised.

[xjohanx]

Dare I ask what a decent meal plan would look like compared to my carb heavy, sugar heavy, low protein one?

Yes. I was trying to help you, that's why I aksed you these questions since it would help a whole lot.

 

Do you know how many calories you can eat at maintenance, meaning when you don't gain or loose any weight? Do you have any allergies or foods that you really hate? Do you mind consuming protein powders and/or amino acid supplements?

Do you feel the need to eat 5 times a day or do you do it because of the whole "meal frequency"-thing?

[Zack]

Well it looks like I know even less that I thought about diet and training and feel like I am back to square one. Maybe I should just sign up for veggieprincess' program and forget the last few years of my life?

 

You don't have to pay her to reiterate to you the same information that's available all over the internet. Answer johan's questions.

 

Unless you have a health reason, if you're not gaining it's probably attributable to inadequate diet.

[Zack]

 

2219 calories

64 grams fat

340 carbs

115 grams sugar

101 grams protein

 

Ratio breakdown: Approximately 58% carbs, 17% protein, 25% fat

 

So, in your opinion... you are doing everything you can for your nutrition??

 

Lets compare these ratios to what Lean and Green said that his body requires to build muscle. In the protein thread, he states that he needs nearly 400 grams of protein when he is in a building phase. Even if we were to up the protein grams significantly... that's still about 2 1/2 times to 3 times more than you are currently eating... yet you FEEL you are doing everything you can to build muscle.

 

 

He doesn't state that he needs that much. He says he prefers to consume that much to be safe, but even said he probably doesn't need that much. 400g of protein is overkill.

 

Assuming her numbers are right seitan_man, eat 1000 more calories then tell us how it goes. Also, I think that if you're a hardgainer you'll burn through carbs easily. Add more fat and protein.

 

Try 200g protein, 80g fat, 400-450g carbs

 

Also, it'd be nice to know your height and weight.

[xjohanx]

I think I need to add one more question to the ones above. What are your current goals? I got the impression that you want to burn fat and then add muscle and not vice versa. Am I correct or are you looking to gain weight?

[Zack]

I think I need to add one more question to the ones above. What are your current goals? I got the impression that you want to burn fat and then add muscle and not vice versa. Am I correct or are you looking to gain weight?

 

 

Pretty sure he wants to cut at least that's what CollegeB tells me. You can't really gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, so choose one.

[Marcina]

Actually Marcina holds the keys to vegan fitness dominance, she's just keeping it a secret!

 

Haha! Work hard, and eat as much as you can. That's my "secret".

 

I know what works for my body, after lots of trial and error and studying. If I was doing something and it didn't work, I changed my routine. Simple.

[seitan_man]

Thanks for all the advice peeps, I really appreciate it! In answer to your questions xjohanx, I have no idea about the first one, calories are something that confuse me to be honest and I normally think in terms of protein, carbs and fats. There are few vegan foods I don't like, with the exception of mustard and uncooked walnuts, the rest is all good.

 

First are foremost I would like a nice, tight stomach, not the pot belly I have now. I would also like a decent chest and arms.

[DCNINJA]

There are several ways to get where you want to be. If you want to lose that gut, burn more or eat less. Simple. If you want to be bigger force your muscles to grow.

 

The whole "I don't want to join a gym thing" is what it is. You want the results you have, then do what you are doing. You want results that other people don't get, then you need to do stuff you hate. I hate going to the gym when I want to screw off. I hate eating five times a day. That said I weigh 180 pounds at 5'8" and have a 29 inch waist with 24.5 inch legs. I got that from doing things others won't do. I got there by writing down every rep and every calorie and looking at what worked and what didn't. I hired real trainers who knew how to push me in ways I hated. I threw up, passed out, and wanted to quit more than once in the gym over the years.

 

Your diet is not what I would do, but it isn't awful. I strongly encourage you to get a trainer who is a real trainer. Someone who has been around long enough to know how hard this is. You really need accountability and someone who can remain objective.

 

Hit weights hard. Take no prisoners. If you don't like conventional gyms try crossfit or P90X. Keep a log. Write down what you eat, when you eat, and how you train. Track your measurements weekly. If you opt for a bodybuilding type regimen instead of one of those above, then track every rep every set and every weight. Stop whining and get your ass in the gym. This stuff is hard, but it is not rocket science. You can do it. Heck there are some great logs of what some pretty good athletes are doing on this site. If nothing else just do what joel is doing. He has a great physique and posts religiously.

[veggieprincess]

You want results that other people don't get, then you need to do stuff you hate. I hate going to the gym when I want to screw off. I hate eating five times a day. That said I weigh 180 pounds at 5'8" and have a 29 inch waist with 24.5 inch legs. I got that from doing things others won't do. I got there by writing down every rep and every calorie and looking at what worked and what didn't.

 

That is really really true and you think exactly the way I do.

 

I HATE going to the gym. There are people that actually like it, I'm not one of 'em. I HATE sucking down protein shakes and eating all the time. I HATE doing an hour and a half to 2 hours of cardio a day. But this is what I need to do to get the body I want.

 

Sometimes I feel too close to this stuff to do it for a living because I have such a low tolerance for excuses because I've said them all, tried them all, done them all... and if there was a better way to get it done, I'd be the first one on board.

 

Thanks DCNinja... the best line you said there was "I got there by doing things others won't do"

 

I kinda needed to hear that today as I think of every excuse in the world NOT to do my cardio tonight... But I will still do it, I don't HAVE to want to. But I will try to go when they're some good cable shows on

[James]

I'm gonna chime in here to defend bodyweight exercises. I've only done bodyweight exercises for the last 2 years as I have a chronic back injury that means I need to keep my spine 'neutral' when I exercise - something impossible with free weights I've found. Whilst I'd love to squat, deadlift, jerk etc. I've been told that I risk serious damage if I do so & I'm not prepared to take that level of risk.

 

That said, there are bodyweight exercises and then there are bodyweight exercises. If, for example, you just do lots of straightforward push ups then you're never going to gain size or strength. You need to apply the same principle of progressive overload as you would using free weights i.e. constantly making things harder & pushing yourself every time you work out. Take dips as an example: once bodyweight dips become easy & you can crank out over a dozen without blinking then you need to start adding resistance in order to keep progressing - in other words adding plates to a belt. Like a couple of others have said, if you're not completely knackered after you finish then you're not working hard enough - my current bodyweight-only & HIIT cardio routine is hell but it's effective Since I quit free weights my strength has defintely improved, to take dips as an example again, when I was powerlifting and weighed 106kg my best weighted dip was something like +35/40, now at 92kg weight I can dip +70.

 

Legs are definitely more tricky, but you have got options, not least my particular love/hate exercise the pistol squat.

[DCNINJA]

James, not completely disagreeing with you. I do weighted dips and pull ups. I also do push ups at the end of my chest workout. I also do ab exercises that are unweighted. That said if someone tells me they want to larger muscles fast, I will almost always tell them to hit some weights. I will also probably tell them to be accountable to someone who knows more than they do or at least knows enough to give an objective reasoned opinion on a regular basis as to how things are going. The reason why so many people fail on exercise programs is lack of accountability and feedback.

[Tasha]

There are several ways to get where you want to be. If you want to lose that gut, burn more or eat less. Simple. If you want to be bigger force your muscles to grow.

 

The whole "I don't want to join a gym thing" is what it is. You want the results you have, then do what you are doing. You want results that other people don't get, then you need to do stuff you hate. I hate going to the gym when I want to screw off. I hate eating five times a day. That said I weigh 180 pounds at 5'8" and have a 29 inch waist with 24.5 inch legs. I got that from doing things others won't do. I got there by writing down every rep and every calorie and looking at what worked and what didn't. I hired real trainers who knew how to push me in ways I hated. I threw up, passed out, and wanted to quit more than once in the gym over the years.

 

Your diet is not what I would do, but it isn't awful. I strongly encourage you to get a trainer who is a real trainer. Someone who has been around long enough to know how hard this is. You really need accountability and someone who can remain objective.

 

Hit weights hard. Take no prisoners. If you don't like conventional gyms try crossfit or P90X. Keep a log. Write down what you eat, when you eat, and how you train. Track your measurements weekly. If you opt for a bodybuilding type regimen instead of one of those above, then track every rep every set and every weight. Stop whining and get your ass in the gym. This stuff is hard, but it is not rocket science. You can do it. Heck there are some great logs of what some pretty good athletes are doing on this site. If nothing else just do what joel is doing. He has a great physique and posts religiously.

 

 

I really like what you put here.

 

I go to the gym hit cardio and weights because I pretend it's my life long career, (like wanting to be a lawyer, dentist, doctor etc.... )

Like for example you know how you wake up in the morning and you say to yourself I don't want to go to work today. But you have to because if you didn't show up for work. They would probably fire you. Then now you think. Were are you going to live? Who is going to pay for your bills and food.

Well I think of it like when you wake up in the morning you have a choice you can either go or not go. If you don't go you're not going to show results plan and simple.

But I think of it as a choice to have to go because it's my job.

[seitan_man]

Some great posts on this thread everyone, very encouraging!

 

I think my problem maybe is down to my negative mindset and hatred of my body in general, I probably even have BDD to some extent and will have to work hard to appreciate my body in any form. I am prepared to put in the effort though and don't want to give up.

 

Dare I ask what other people's typical meals plans look like? I'm very interested.

[Oatsandpotatoes]

Some great posts on this thread everyone, very encouraging!

 

I think my problem maybe is down to my negative mindset and hatred of my body in general, I probably even have BDD to some extent and will have to work hard to appreciate my body in any form. I am prepared to put in the effort though and don't want to give up.

 

Dare I ask what other people's typical meals plans look like? I'm very interested.

 

Hey bro, despite what your PT said, there's nothing magical in meat that's gonna pack on muscle. I have tried many things and it wasn't till I started eating oats, brown rice, potatoes and did compound lifts that I went from 177 to 217. Most of it was muscle, I did gain some fat but I was never overweight, always stayed in the average range for bodyfat. I don't eat that kinda quantity anymore. I have reduced my carbs by half and dropped badyfat. Check out my intro if you wanna take a look at what I am doing right now. Just cut the carbs by 30 percent if you think it's too much food for you. You have the capacity to build muscle, you just have to find what works for you. Good luck.