Vitamin B-12: Still A Problem

[beforewisdom]

In a new study from the United Kingdom, researchers found that more than half of vegan men were deficient in vitamin B12 based on their serum levels. The findings are part of the EPIC-Oxford study and will be published in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

 

The researchers looked at diets and serum levels of B12 in 226 omnivores, 231 vegetarians and 232 vegans. Mean serum B12 levels in vegans were 33% lower than in the vegetarians and 57% percent lower than in the omnivores.

 

snip ....

 

 

One especially unfortunate finding: Only 19% of the vegan men said they took vitamin B12 supplements. And surprisingly, their serum levels of vitamin B12 were no higher than those of vegan men who didn’t take supplements.

 

snip ....

 

It’s important to choose a supplement that can be chewed or allowed to dissolve beneath the tongue.

 

Full Article

http://veggiedietitian.blogspot.com/2010/07/vitamin-b12-supplements-how-much-is.html

 

Everything a vegan needs to know about vitamin b-12

http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

[VelvetVoices]

Just go my blood test this morning to check my B12, find the results beginning of September when my next Dr. appointment is. Currently don't take any B12 supplements, so will see how the results turn out.

[Fallen_Horse]

I wonder why B12 supplementation was ineffective...

[vegimator]

Here's the actual study abstract. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20648045

If anyone has access to the full study, I'd be curious to hear the details on how much supplementation the veg*ns were doing. My serum b12 when last measured was over 1800, about seven times higher than the mean for the omnivores in this study (and I've been vegan for nearly six years and vegetarian for seven years before that) so clearly supplementation does work.

[Ducati]

The baseline is based on an omnivore's diet. That doesn't prove deficiency. Symptoms would prove deficiency.

[vegimator]

148 pmol/liter is the low end of acceptable though and the vegan mean was 122. Really though, all three groups had pretty low numbers.

[beforewisdom]

I wonder why B12 supplementation was ineffective...

 

Messina in the article said many vegans just don't do it. She also recommended the use of lozenges that melt under the tongue. I've told that to a lot of people who tell me they take a multivitamin instead. I don't think people get a lot out of multivitamins as some of the pill can be quite large and not break down fully. Some things interfere with other things being absorbed. Then there is people remembering to take things.

[vegimator]

I'm really not sure why she's so insistent on the liquid or sublingual vitamins. Tablets work just fine. Here's a study that showed improvement in patients' DNA damage (a side effect of low b-12) on just a very low dose tablet (7 micrograms a day if I'm reading this right). I'm not saying you should take just 7 mcg a day of b12, but I've mostly used tablets and its worked fine for me. Incidentally, Jack Norris of veganhealth.org recommends tablets.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9683174

[DerStupid]

Also keep in mind that some of the subjects in the study are probably not a vegan for a very long time and still have reserves, so the quota among longtime vegans is possibly even higher than 50%.

I also think this quote is especially alarming:

And surprisingly, their serum levels of vitamin B12 were no higher than those of vegan men who didn’t take supplements.

 

After about 3 years of vegan-oriented vegetarism and 1 year of veganism I started taking multivit. tablets with 10mcg B12 a few months ago, but I fear that might be insufficient so I plan to get and take some additional higher dosage tablets over a few weeks just in case.

[lobsteriffic]

Here's the actual study abstract. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20648045

If anyone has access to the full study, I'd be curious to hear the details on how much supplementation the veg*ns were doing. My serum b12 when last measured was over 1800, about seven times higher than the mean for the omnivores in this study (and I've been vegan for nearly six years and vegetarian for seven years before that) so clearly supplementation does work.

 

 

If you're still wanting the full text PM me, I have the PDF.

[Ducati]

The problem with the whole B12 debate is that no one knows what is healthy and what is not. Some people have very low B12 levels with no symptoms of a deficiency. Other people have levels well above the acceptable range but develop symptoms of deficiency. Obviously there are other factors involved. It could be that B12 is protecting people from something else they eat. If they don't eat it, then they might not need such high levels.

 

Either consume fortified products or take a supplement, but I wouldn't worry about B12 deficiency unless you developed some symptoms.

[beforewisdom]

Either consume fortified products or take a supplement, but I wouldn't worry about B12 deficiency unless you developed some symptoms.

 

By the time a number of symptoms of a b-12 deficiency are visible they are serious and irreversible.

 

Jack Norris, cofounder of Vegan Outreach is a registered dietitian. He has written one of the best articles on vitamin b-12 in existence. Authors of vegan nutrition books at conferences quote his article.

 

Norris has several versions of the same article. Some are detailed for people who find the subject interesting. Other version are short for people who do not find interesting and who just want to know what they need to do.

 

Anyone who thinks anything other than taking a sublingual b-12 lozenge on a regular basis covers their health has a mistaken impression and should read at least one version of Norris' article

 

Vitamin B12

http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

[Ducati]

By the time a number of symptoms of a b-12 deficiency are visible they are serious and irreversible.

 

By the time a number of symptoms of any deficiency are visible, they can be serious and irreversible. However, there are many symptoms that occur well before irreversible damage occur.

 

And you can be tested to have plenty of B12 and be well above the "normal" range, and still be deficient. Would you ignore the symptoms because you couldn't possibly have a B12 deficiency? Also, the blood serum tests are thought to be very inaccurate.

 

Serum Homocysteine and Methylmalonic acid levels are considered more reliable indicators of B12 deficiency than the concentration of B12 in blood, see for example research at the St. Louis University.[25] The levels of these substances are high in B12 deficiency and can be helpful if the diagnosis is unclear. Approximately 10% of patients with vitamin B12 levels between 200–400pg/l will have a vitamin B12 deficiency on the basis of elevated levels of homocysteine and methylmalonic acid.

 

If you are taking a supplement, your chances of having a deficiency are extremely rare unless you have a problem absorbing the B12.

 

Take a supplement and forget about it unless you show some symptoms. Quite frankly, if you show any chronic symptoms you need to seek medical advice from a professional who understand plant-based nutrition.

 

 

The symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency can vary amongst individuals, depending on the cause, the severity of B12 deficiency and other factors.

 

Symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency include very pale skin, shortness of breath, fatigue, dizziness, headache cold hands and feet, heart palpitations, and chest pain. These symptoms are due to a decreased production of red blood cells that are necessary to carry vital oxygen to the body's cells and tissues. A serious complication that can occur due to decreased red blood cell production is pernicious anemia, also called vitamin B12 deficiency anemia.

 

Vitamin B12 deficiency and vitamin B12 deficiency anemia can also affect the gastrointestinal tract and result in enlarged liver (hepatomegaly), nausea, vomiting, heartburn, abdominal bloating, gas, constipation or diarrhea, loss of appetite, and weight loss.

 

Symptoms can also occur in the nervous system. If left untreated, vitamin B12 deficiency can result in permanent nerve damage. Symptoms can include numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, unsteadiness, difficulty walking, confusion, depression, memory loss, and dementia.

[DerStupid]

And you can be tested to have plenty of B12 and be well above the "normal" range, and still be deficient. Would you ignore the symptoms because you couldn't possibly have a B12 deficiency? Also, the blood serum tests are thought to be very inaccurate.

I have no idea but could this be because the testing method is bad and cant distinguis between real and analoga?

 

Noticing early symptoms might not be so easy, things such as fatigue may easily be imagined if you're scared about having a deficiency.

[Ducati]

And you can be tested to have plenty of B12 and be well above the "normal" range, and still be deficient. Would you ignore the symptoms because you couldn't possibly have a B12 deficiency? Also, the blood serum tests are thought to be very inaccurate.

I have no idea but could this be because the testing method is bad and cant distinguis between real and analoga?

 

Noticing early symptoms might not be so easy, things such as fatigue may easily be imagined if you're scared about having a deficiency.

 

Getting tested may not tell you anything. If you are taking a supplement and your tests show you in the "normal" range, your Doctor might tell you that you are imaging it and to ignore it. But if more symptoms appear, then you definitely want to dig deeper regardless of what the doctor says about your blood tests.

[Dallas]

I just took a 1000 mcg of NOW B12 and I think I already feel the energy it gives me.

[vegimator]

Testing serum b-12 doesn't distinguish between non b-12 analogues and actual b-12. The most accurate (but less available) test is a Methylmalonic Acid (MMA) test.

[beforewisdom]

By the time a number of symptoms of a b-12 deficiency are visible they are serious and irreversible.

 

By the time a number of symptoms of any deficiency are visible, they can be serious and irreversible. However, there are many symptoms that occur well before irreversible damage occur.

 

I think your posts in this thread are irresponsible.

 

People can take your posts in such a way as to not taking b-12 supplements seriously. Then one day, out of nowhere they can have nerve damage or damage from a cariovascular event they will be stuck with for the rest of their lives.

 

I suggest you read this full page of Jack Norris' on the subject and get informed:

http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

[beforewisdom]

Vegimator;

 

If you are wondering why b-12 is still an issue I would say this thread is a good example.

 

Despite the need for b-12 and from certain sources being a cut and dry issue, people who don't want to believe it out of some idea or who like arguing for the sake of arguing are refusing to accept Messina's information.

 

They would rather risk cardiovascular events, nerve damage, or feeling sick when they can be sure to prevent it for less than 50 cents a week.

 

Then there are comments that show a total ignorance of the facts when articles like Jack Norris's exist:

 

http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

 

IMO, it is flat out asinine.

[beforewisdom]

I don't mean offense to anyone, ducati, vegimator or anyone else.

 

Like I just wrote in my post I am taken aback by how people are making a non-issue into an issue, risking their health and doing everything except reading a free article and investing in something that costs less than a can of soda each week to safeguard their health.

 

It just seems unreal.

[Ducati]

By the time a number of symptoms of a b-12 deficiency are visible they are serious and irreversible.

 

By the time a number of symptoms of any deficiency are visible, they can be serious and irreversible. However, there are many symptoms that occur well before irreversible damage occur.

 

I think your posts in this thread are irresponsible.

 

People can take your posts in such a way as to not taking b-12 supplements seriously. Then one day, out of nowhere they can have nerve damage or damage from a cariovascular event they will be stuck with for the rest of their lives.

 

I suggest you read this full page of Jack Norris' on the subject and get informed:

http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

 

 

You sound like you work for the meat industry. You are hyping this up when it is very simple. Like I said in every other post, TAKE A SUPPLEMENT and go on with your life. If you have any symptoms, then seek medical advice. You don't go straight from feeling fine to nerve damage. You will encounter other symptoms from mild deficiency before you go completely mad as it is with most every other deficiency.

[VeganEssentials]

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" has never been more true.

 

B-12 supplements are cheap, and there's no reason NOT to take them from time to time. I don't take them daily, but either once or twice per week (or, sometimes for a few weeks straight), I throw them in for good measure. It's not "sticking it to the man" and giving any benefit by trying to deny that they should be a part of every vegan's life (from time to time, at the least), and if everyone would actually take the issue seriously....*GASP*....there'd never be an issue for the anti-vegan side to keep saying that we're all going to get sick from a lack of it. Though, what do I know for thinking that we'd want to actually give the opposition one less bullet to use against us for saying a vegan diet is inferior?

 

Go easy on beforewisdom, everyone. He's only trying to point out the inherent dangers in developing a deficiency by warning that it CAN HAPPEN, and the results aren't pretty. I assure you, he's not a B-12 profiteer that's going to make a killing from asking fellow vegans to simply be concerned about their health. Or maybe....

 

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:jNejsdh15FgSSM:http://conspiracylol.com/images/conspiracy.jpg&t=1

[vegimator]

Even the authors of the study think that b-12 supplements work despite the finding about those supplementing not having better status than those not.

 

"...even though vegetarian and vegan men who reported taking a

vitamin B12 supplement had a higher intake of vitamin B12,

serum concentrations of vitamin B12 were not affected. It is

possible that supplement use was not accurately reported,

some of the vitamin B12 supplements taken contained a type

of inactive plant- based vitamin B12 (Watanabe, 2007) or

that a proportion of men taking a vitamin B12 supplement

had been recently diagnosed with a vitamin B12 deficiency.

There seems to be a degree of awareness among these

participants of the need to supplement vegan and vegetarian

diets, in as much as 20% of vegans and vegetarians reported

taking vitamin B12 supplements regularly. However, because

there was little difference in serum vitamin B12 between

supplement and nonsupplement users, it may be necessary

to improve the understanding of the need to regularly

consume supplements containing adequate amounts of the

active form of vitamin B12."

[beforewisdom]

You sound like you work for the meat industry. You are hyping this up when it is very simple. Like I said in every other post, TAKE A SUPPLEMENT and go on with your life. If you have any symptoms, then seek medical advice. You don't go straight from feeling fine to nerve damage. You will encounter other symptoms from mild deficiency before you go completely mad as it is with most every other deficiency.

 

The meat industry would welcome posts telling people not to take sound advice from credentialed experts about vegan nutrition. That way when they get sick, go back to meat and feel better they can be a free advertisement against veganism.

Edited July 30, 2010 by beforewisdom

[beforewisdom]

Go easy on beforewisdom, everyone. He's only trying to point out the inherent dangers in developing a deficiency by warning that it CAN HAPPEN, and the results aren't pretty. I assure you, he's not a B-12 profiteer that's going to make a killing from asking fellow vegans to simply be concerned about their health. Or maybe....

 

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:jNejsdh15FgSSM:http://conspiracylol.com/images/conspiracy.jpg&t=1

 

Years ago, I got banned from veganforum.com for posting Jack Norris' articles about vitamin b-12. The admin, Korn, actually believed that the B-12 recommendations were the result of fearmongering for profit.