crashnburn Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 We are so scary as a human race... that we have to go in this direction and choose between the two.. I dont know which side is right or wrong.. and things apply on peoples scenarios.. I'd rather not see life ended prematurely.. But then hearing about unwanted pregnancies changing & impacting peoplese lives.. thats scary too. A few days back this Non profit guy was talking about an 11 year old pregnant with a child.. that belonged to her father.. It scares me .. to think we are human at all. I can take EITHER side on this front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 What are we then if not human? Whats to say that is not actually human nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 About the whole "sex for pleasure" thing - there' about a million ways you can get pleasure with a lover without having actual intercourse... just use your imagination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savebabe Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I'm a right for lifer, and I do not believe that it is right to "kill" any form of life, for any reason. Whether they be human, or one of our animal friends. Its all about taking responsibilty for our actions. No one forces anyone to have sex (not including rape here of course). I have been in this situation, and refused to have an abortion, but I made everyone I dated aware of my convictions regarding abortion (but that shouldn't make a lick of difference). So I have a beautiful 9yr old daughter,(I won't bad mouth my ex as no good ever comes from putting another down) to be thankful for. A girl I used to work with was always getting herself pregnant, and had at least one abortion every year. She didn't want the abortion, but went ahead and had one anyway to please the guy, who ended up leaving her anyway!!! The emotional impact of having a child on your own as a single mother can be quite an emotional one(but an experience that helps you grow). At the same token, I can say, the emotional burden of having an abortion is mentally, and physically crippling. More so than the stigma of being a "single mother". It takes amazing strength to go against your partner/boyfriend/husband and have a baby when their is no support forthcoming. Not to mention that most of the medical proffession looks down (and treats you as a second class citizen)as a single mother. Lets not forget the "male" element (not fogetting women who you'd think would be sympathtic-). Once you are a single mother you have "loose morals" tattooed to your forehead. I applaud any female who has the strength to stand up and have her child. In Australia you have to apply for child support as you may not get benefits of any sort (child care etc) if you don't lodge a claim. Life is a gift. One that we have no right to tamper with. If a child was not meant to be born then it would be so. I won't get into the man said, the women said arguement, as word of mouth is sooooo unreliable. I find many, many people love to put others down, have a good gossip as they are so unhappy themselves, and hearing of others misery entertains them. Unless you are present, then you can never, ever really know the full story. I'd hate to know what my daughters father told/tells everyone he knew. But I don't really care. Apparently he's a good father with his step-son, so he can't be all that bad. My daughter is an amazingly compassionate human being, and I believe she will have an important impact on this Earth. I'm glad I went against everyone's wishes (parents included). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 And sex for pleasure dolphins and primates do that, not just humans. Also there was a display on campus today and yesterday you can find more about it at JFAweb.org. it's an anti abortion thing. They have taken a hint from PETA and use really graphic pictures. This display has drawn very big crowds, and the pro choice people also get to have a set up, theirs is never as big, but all the coat hangers can leave people asking questions. Anyways the pamphlet the anti abortion folks pass out has the following (i should scan this sometime, but probably won't so use your imagination): "If these are wrong... (picture of person in electric chair, and a picture of animal testing) Can this be right?" (picture of 8 wk embryo and pic of aborted 24 wk fetus) I appreciate that page, since it brings in animal and another aspect human rights to the mix. I do believe though that most people who are "pro life" ignore these 2 points, especially the animal rights part. Do you think a pro life vegan is more consistent with the compassionate, and respect for all life philosophy of veganism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/veganbooks.safeshopper.com/images/bp1dqr1d.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 For animals (pets anyway) our society says if they can’t live a good happy life they should be put down.Do you think it’s because of a lack of understanding of how valuable life is? Or because they do value life and think that each one should get the best? Now for pro-lifers they think that no people (including the unborn) should die.Is it because they know the value of life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Do you think a pro life vegan is more consistent with the compassionate, and respect for all life philosophy of veganism? I can see this question going into an unending 10+ page thread because people get very emotional over it. But I'll just say that I don't like the killing of human fetuses for many of the same reasons I don't like the killing of cows/chickens/pigs/etc. I don't really want to debate though, so I'll just leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kollision Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 An abortion is not an easy thing. I think it perfectly reasonable that one could first decide to get one and then change ones mind. And speaking about backing out of a contract, you dont thinks its a bit unresponsible by the guy to refuse to support his own child? If she agreed to have an abortion then no, he shouldn't have to pay. She can go ahead and "break" the contract by having it, but don't step even further over it and start demanding money when you (the girl) admitted to get an abortion. Either get an abortion or have the baby and don't bother the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Thanks for sharing your story savebabe. I was raised by a single mother so I hear what you're saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Do you think a pro life vegan is more consistent with the compassionate, and respect for all life philosophy of veganism? No. In short. Basically because the extra strain of the added population causes extra suffering for animals/other humans. Also, when a child is unwanted, but still born, they themselves are likely to suffer. There are 6.5billion people on Earth, whilst I do not think abortion is an acceptable contraceptive, it is a measure of control that might aid a slowing of population growth. Also - where do people stand on aborting feotuses that are severely disabled? I am very much for it, partially for the above reasons, and also because having worked for some time with people with severe disabilities, most have extremely frustrating lives. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 No. In short. Basically because the extra strain of the added population causes extra suffering for animals/other humans. Also, when a child is unwanted, but still born, they themselves are likely to suffer. There are 6.5billion people on Earth, whilst I do not think abortion is an acceptable contraceptive, it is a measure of control that might aid a slowing of population growth. I totally agree with that! Also - where do people stand on aborting feotuses that are severely disabled? I am very much for it, partially for the above reasons, and also because having worked for some time with people with severe disabilities, most have extremely frustrating lives. I’m not sure about that… I used to work with some disabled kids and it was very frustrating, but maybe mostly for me. Some I don’t think even had a clue what was going on so I honestly don’t think that had any frustration. But you are looking at this from the stand point of an outsider. I don’t know if you are married but imagine that if you are you and your wife are expecting a child and you are both thrilled about it. In your head you can already picture what it is like to be a father, you can picture holding your new born baby, playing games and teaching them as they get older… you are in love with this child before it is even born. Then you find out that there is something wrong, and they are not going to be perfect, they are not going to be able to do the things you imagined, but you stop loving them? I think it is still vegan to be pro choice. I know that that involves killing and that is an awful thing, but I also think it is also very big of a person if they say “I cannot take care of a child properly”. It is not only looking out for their best interest but that of the child.Whereas someone who eats meat is only looking out for their best interests, because of course a pig doesn’t benefit from being someone’s bacon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I know this is a biased source for an argument, but the people (who i've heard on the radio, or have read news articles about) that have disabled children and are not supporting abortion are glad they brought their child into the world because the child can smile and live and grow. Now i've not heard from people that have kids who are born in a pretty vegitative state. So Jonathan I'd go with you on this one. it's gotta be up to the parent, if they think they can take care of the kid then awesome, some probably cannot or will not, and if thats the case then who will? I bet the child care services of the state are severely strained just like everything else and they may have a really hard time caring for a disabled child properly. Perhaps a private group would. Quality life is a factor as you've pointed out. However I wouldnt worry about planet over crowding as long as Bush keeps up his genocidal ambitions. There are also probably more genocidal campaigns world wide than many of us are aware of. And I think at least in France the population is not growing in number. Maybe a 1.2:1 birth to death ratio. Are most EU nations going in that direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savebabe Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I believe that if a guy refuses to support his child finally, then that should be his issue. It shouldn't make a lick of difference to the mother/child. If you love your child, then money should never become an issue. A child needs love before money, and if you live with anger/hatred towards your ex thats all you'll bring into your life. I am also a great beleiver in the phylosopies of Bhuddism. A challenging life, they beleive chosen. People with higher needs are beautiful people too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 If she agreed to have an abortion then no, he shouldn't have to pay. She can go ahead and "break" the contract by having it, but don't step even further over it and start demanding money when you (the girl) admitted to get an abortion. Either get an abortion or have the baby and don't bother the guy.First if the woman 'agrees' to have an abortion there is something wrong in the first place because that implies that she has been perusaded to it. But even if she decides to have an abortion and then changes her mind it doesnt matter. The father is required to support his child, by law I believe (?) , no matter if the mother first thinks she wants an abortion and then changes her mind. And I also dont see why you think its ok that the mother negotiates away money that is supposed to go to the upbringing of her child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 If you love your child, then money should never become an issue. A child needs love before money, and if you live with anger/hatred towards your ex thats all you'll bring into your life.Yeah, of course, money doesnt matter, who needs stuff like food, clothes, education, healthcare etc . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savebabe Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I'm sorry if you feel so strongly, but I've been a single mother on a pension (with NO support from my ex) and I saved loads of cash, and my daughter always had more than people on really high incomes. She also had a really blissful babyhood. Money doesn't make the world go around, it just makes the ride fun! I also managed to get a college education (mind you I was 27 at the time so I suppose I had a lot more experience than a younger person), and I had private insurance, paid my rent, and always had healthy food available. You are talking about someone who spent around $500 a w/end, down to having a budget of only $500 a month (or less I think). I can see both sides of the arguement (regarding money-I find the abortion debate really challenging and cannot get my head around the seeming, insignificance of life). I'm not some "amazing" out of the ordinary person who was able to take a challenging situation and turn it into an extrordinary experience. You either do, or do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashnburn Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I read some article about the UK having really high teen pregnancies.. and largest age group in that was 15-16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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