Think God would be vegan?

[jonathan]

maybe such a confusing, contradictory, scientifically flawed book should be ignored in favour of creating your own philosophy on how to live your life. obviously nothing can ever be completely original, and everyone draws from experience, but creating your own moral framework allows for more positive improvement than millenia old teachings - i mean where does the bible stand on music pirating?

 

jonathan

[brendan]

In addressing the initial question of this thread, I think it is interesting to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church for its stance on treatment of animals:

 

"Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory (Cf. Mt 6:26; Dan 3:79-81). Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

 

"God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image (Cf. Gen 2:19-20; 9:1-4). Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

 

"It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons."

 

It is important to note the logical leaps here, where man is first called to be a steward to the animals, and then suddenly gains the right to exploit and kill them. (For more on our call to be stewards of the earth, working under the overarching value of love, which includes mercy for animals, I recommend a book by Matthew Scully, a former speech writer for President Bush, called "Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy.")

 

The second, most glaring logical leap comes after Church authority has established that it is permissible to use animals to our own ends by then making it a point to admonish unnecessary animal suffering. As vegans, we are living examples that most (if not all) suffering imposed on animals is unnecessary, especially when it comes to food and clothing consumption. Perhaps this is merely a sign that the Catholic Church has adopted an anachronistic view of the modern marvels of vegetarianism and might, with better understanding, reconsider its approach to present-day animal treatment.

 

As far as to when bad things happen to good people, I recommend a book by the same name by Rabbi Harold Kushner. In it, Kushner draws from the widely accepted paradigm that God is all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing. From there, he argues that God can only be two of these three attributes at any one time. Working through this conundrum, Kushner ultimately concludes that God is all-loving and all-knowing, but not all-powerful, otherwise our free will would be truncated and bad things would not happen to good people. The co-existence of omni-benevolence and omnipotence are simply illogical within the Judeo-Christian worldview.

[Vamprilla]

Kourtney, I dont see anywhere in the Bible that supports the notion that you "can kill in God's name". people do it - but that doesnt mean that GOD wants them too.

 

In fact, Jesus's compassion was not ONLY limited to people that who beleived in him. He taught kindness and compassion for all beings.

 

The sentiment that God would approve of killing in his name is absolutely absurd.

 

P.S. I wish I was at Rob's house too.

 

I haven't read the bible so I wouldn't know, but I've heard of people killing in gods name. He may not weant them to but the'll probably forgive them.

Hell, Jesus was a cool guy. I remember hearing in my world religions class that he stopped people from stonning a woman who had cmmited adultery.

[compassionategirl]

Kourtney, I dont see anywhere in the Bible that supports the notion that you "can kill in God's name". people do it - but that doesnt mean that GOD wants them too.

 

In fact, Jesus's compassion was not ONLY limited to people that who beleived in him. He taught kindness and compassion for all beings.

 

The sentiment that God would approve of killing in his name is absolutely absurd.

 

P.S. I wish I was at Rob's house too.

 

I haven't read the bible so I wouldn't know, but I've heard of people killing in gods name. He may not weant them to but the'll probably forgive them.

Hell, Jesus was a cool guy. I remember hearing in my world religions class that he stopped people from stonning a woman who had cmmited adultery.

 

Hi Kourtney,

 

yes, jesus was a VERY cool guy. He was truly a compassionate, peaceful, merciful and empathetic man. The story about the woman he saved, which you refer to, is the one that I was talking about in an above post. The authorities had caught a woman in the act of adultery, and wanted to execute her as punishment for her "unlawfullness" and immorality by stoning her to death (how cruel!!!!). Christ then turned and said to them, something like "Let he who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone." Of course, nobody was without sin and so nobody could cast the first stone, and Christ had thereby saved this woman.

 

This is just one example of many in the New Testament, where Christ taught forgiveness, empthay, and MERCY.

[compassionategirl]

In addressing the initial question of this thread, I think it is interesting to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church for its stance on treatment of animals:

 

"Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory (Cf. Mt 6:26; Dan 3:79-81). Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

 

"God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image (Cf. Gen 2:19-20; 9:1-4). Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

 

"It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons."

 

It is important to note the logical leaps here, where man is first called to be a steward to the animals, and then suddenly gains the right to exploit and kill them. (For more on our call to be stewards of the earth, working under the overarching value of love, which includes mercy for animals, I recommend a book by Matthew Scully, a former speech writer for President Bush, called "Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy.")

 

The second, most glaring logical leap comes after Church authority has established that it is permissible to use animals to our own ends by then making it a point to admonish unnecessary animal suffering. As vegans, we are living examples that most (if not all) suffering imposed on animals is unnecessary, especially when it comes to food and clothing consumption. Perhaps this is merely a sign that the Catholic Church has adopted an anachronistic view of the modern marvels of vegetarianism and might, with better understanding, reconsider its approach to present-day animal treatment.

 

As far as to when bad things happen to good people, I recommend a book by the same name by Rabbi Harold Kushner. In it, Kushner draws from the widely accepted paradigm that God is all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing. From there, he argues that God can only be two of these three attributes at any one time. Working through this conundrum, Kushner ultimately concludes that God is all-loving and all-knowing, but not all-powerful, otherwise our free will would be truncated and bad things would not happen to good people. The co-existence of omni-benevolence and omnipotence are simply illogical within the Judeo-Christian worldview.

 

Hey Brendan, The first quoted paragraph is awesome. Then, as you state, the apparently "logical leap" from that to the rest of the conclusions you note is anything but logical. People have interpretted "stewardship" to mean dominance and exploitation, but the definition of stewardship is more suggestive of a care taking role, NOT one of "rape and pillage animals for your own ends" !!!!

 

The book by Scully is a good one. I have skimmed it. I recommend it to everybody.

 

 

And, even if God gave us permission to use and abuse animals only "as necessary", then, as you point out, VEGANS are living proof that NO animal exploitation is necessary!!! So even people who subsribe to this view should be vegan, since vegans prove that no animal exploitation is necessary.

 

anyways i am in a bit of a rush so i hope that makes sense gotta go see ya!

[compassionategirl]

maybe such a confusing, contradictory, scientifically flawed book should be ignored in favour of creating your own philosophy on how to live your life. obviously nothing can ever be completely original, and everyone draws from experience, but creating your own moral framework allows for more positive improvement than millenia old teachings - i mean where does the bible stand on music pirating?

 

jonathan

 

I think music pirating, or any kind of theft, would be covered under the "thou shall not steal" commandment.

[jonathan]

ah but what if the band are arseholes, like metalica? they would sue their own mothers if they pirated their stuff. i personally dont like their music, but would have no moral problem with downloading it!

 

jonathan

[Jay]

I suppose considering how many christians there are, it's good to have some of them arguing christians should be vegan.

 

But for those who's thinking is based on logic instead of faith, it's safe to say beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus never existed. There were at least 18 "messiahs" (which in Hebrew is "kristos" thus christ) that lived around the time of the supposed Jesus Kristos that all have numerous mentions by various roman and jewish historians. Except for Jesus who's only mention by name as the messiah comes from Josephus which has been pretty well determined to be a forgery as the mention apparently only popped up 350 years after Josephus wrote this history plus he was a Jew who suddenly turns Christian for a few paragraphs then reverts back. All the other supposed evidence only concerns messiahs of which as mentioned above there were tons running around back then.

 

Basically what people don't understand is that many unbiased historians (people outside the whatever cult they were writing about) talked in great detail about tons of messiahs back then yet there is not a single solid mention of Jesus the messiah.

[Sknydpr]

But for those who's thinking is based on logic instead of faith, it's safe to say beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus never existed.

 

Actually, I'm not convinced that's true, and it's a trivial point anyway. I don't question his existence because it doesn't matter to me. I question his divinity.

 

What is safe to say is that there are NO eyewitness accounts of his life and alleged works, including the four gospels.

 

What is also safe to say is that early Christianity was nothing more than a cult until the Emperor Constantine made it the only sanctioned religion of the widespread Roman Empire. And that was a political move on his part.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled veganism discussion...

[Gym hater]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled veganism discussion...

 

Oke, lets do that.

 

I think if God was one of us he would be vegan. This is becouse of the saddistical way the animals are treated during and prior to slaughter. Cutting a creature open while it still is alive and letting it bleed to death seems like the work of Satan to me.

[compassionategirl]

I think if God was one of us he would be vegan. This is becouse of the saddistical way the animals are treated during and prior to slaughter. Cutting a creature open while it still is alive and letting it bleed to death seems like the work of Satan to me.

 

YUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Barring exceptional circumstances of course)

[Gym hater]

compassionategirl,

 

Have you ever said that to a christian meat eater? and if yes, what did they say in return?

 

PS. this is post nr 100 for me

[compassionategirl]

They spew the typical misguided perverse self-serving interpretation:

 

"But God gave us permission to eat animals. God gave us dominion over the animals, etc. etc." As if by Dominion God meant the right to torture and abuse his MOST innocent, voiceless, defenseless creatures who deserve nothing short of our respect and compassion.

 

(I have addressed this ridiculousnous all throughout this thread so I wont repeat it here. )

 

 

it is really very sad.

[Gym hater]

I know the arguments for meat eating like animals have no soul, humans are more important and such nonsense. But I'd like to know what they have to say about the satanism part. I am certainly going to bring it up the next time I see a christian person.

[V VII Hero]

I was raised a strict practicing catholic.

I now do not believe in God, nor Jesus, nor any hypocritical teachings, or religions.

 

 

I am now starting to believe in the Gaia Hypothesis..

 

to me, it is irrelevant about God's existance. as long as I try my best to help others (animals, the environment, and humans), that is all that matters. (however I am far from being where I'd like to be, moral wise).

 

half the fun of the journey is not knowing where it will end...

so I tend to stray away from thinking of a set afterlife/death.

[veganmadre]

If I were god, I would eat vegan junk food all day long. Pretty much until I wanted to puke. And I wouldn't worry about being fat cause noone's gunna look at god and be like "dude, you aughta lose some serious poundage, man, you're a fat-arse".

[michaelhobson]

noone's gunna look at god and be like "dude, you aughta lose some serious poundage, man, you're a fat-arse".

 

Hah, that's what you think!

[Crash]

As I don't think that God needs to eat or wear anything, I believe it's a moot point thinking he would be vegan; however, I believe the Jesus was vegan, mainly because I don't believe someone teaching peace, love and nonviolence would condone or kill something. He was also purported to have lived with a vegetarian religious sect called the Essenes during his missing years.

 

As you can tell I believe in God and Jesus, but think everything has gotten messed up by humans that didn't want to change their way of life. The messages of love, peace and nonviolence would make those in charge lose their power over people and would also put all people on an even level. This would not justify a ruler or a noble class and this would be anathema to those in charge (ie, rulers -- kings, popes, the "noble" rich people who traded in life - animal and human). The most used bible today is the translation by a King for chrissakes ! Also, priests came from wealthy families in the old days of the vatican. When Jesus became a threat to the power and religion du jour, he was crucified by them -- this was not a question of faith, it was a question of politics and control. When many became converts, what do you really think those in power were going to do, turn around and share everything ? I was brought up as an orthodox christian; however, I also believe in reincarnation and ghosts.

 

As for the question of why a compassionate god would allow so much pain and suffering in the world, I think it's a matter of lessons and choices. We all have free will, but our life on this earth is a lesson. Evil exists by those who make selfish and wrong choices. We come to understand that things are wrong and stop doing them. If we don't we keep on coming back again and again until we do learn. Before you ask, the victims are there because they have chosen, in advance, to help those that need to learn the lessons.

 

Maybe bad things happen to good people, because those good people agreed to help in the lesson of someone else or needed a lesson in something themselves. -- Please note, I am not saying that any humans and non humans deserve anything bad to happen to them, just that there is a lesson purpose.

Edited September 13, 2005 by Crash

[compassionategirl]

Crash,

 

AS you can probably tell from the many posts I have made on this thread, I generally agree with some of what you say above about Jesus, love, peace, etc.

 

However, I dont understand how your theory that bad things happen to good people because they have chosen to be in a lesson for somebody else can possibly apply to animals. How have billions of murdered animals chosen to be a lesson for somebody else? I just dont get that.

 

While I would like to consider myself a spiritual Christian, I cannot find any biblical explanation as to why the Almighty God allows billions of animals to be tortured, raped and murdered each year, or why young innocent children suffer and die, or why...well the list goes on.This is the one thing that I struggle with as a Christian, and it is the one thing that has caused me to nearly lose my religion on several past occasions. People either deserve the suffering or are improved by it, is one explanation given by a C.S Lewis. But what about animal pain? Animals dont deserve it, nor are they "improved" by it.

 

AS far as your comments about people srewing it up and adopting a "style" of Christianity that allows them to continue in their self-serving, greedy, corrupt, lustful, vain and gluttonoues ways, I totally agree and have made the same argument numerous times on this thread.

 

[Crash]

If you needed to learn a lesson about compassion, you need to have someone in need of compassion. In order to learn the difference between right and wrong, you need a right way and a wrong way. No one deserves to have bad things happen to them (well except those that are evil), but how will you learn if things are always going your way ?

 

Of course animals don't deserve the horror and misery that they experience every single day -- maybe the point of it all is that we learn this is wrong and change it. I'm not an expert and maybe way off base, but I believe that some have already learned the lessons that they need to (ie, their souls have learned and they have agreed to help our souls learn). It's all interconnected (and before some smart arse comes along, no I don't believe we come back as rocks, trees, etc.)

Edited September 13, 2005 by Crash

[compassionategirl]

I believe the Jesus was vegan, mainly because I don't believe someone teaching peace, love and nonviolence would condone or kill something. He was also purported to have lived with a vegetarian religious sect called the Essenes during his missing years.

 

As you can tell I believe in God and Jesus, but think everything has gotten messed up by humans that didn't want to change their way of life. The messages of love, peace and nonviolence would make those in charge lose their power over people and would also put all people on an even level. This would not justify a ruler or a noble class and this would be anathema to those in charge (ie, rulers -- kings, popes, the "noble" rich people who traded in life - animal and human). The most used bible today is the translation by a King for chrissakes ! Also, priests came from wealthy families in the old days of the vatican. When Jesus became a threat to the power and religion du jour, he was crucified by them -- this was not a question of faith, it was a question of politics and control. When many became converts, what do you really think those in power were going to do, turn around and share everything ? I was brought up as an orthodox christian; however, I also believe in reincarnation and ghosts.

 

 

I agree with the above Crash.

 

But on the God wouldnt eat or wear anything point, that is really a technicality - what I meant by the question essentially is would veganism please God, or is this what God wanted humans to be (i.e. vegan)?

 

Points were raised by some that the God of the bible was a vengeful God and so God, if he exists, does not care about animals (or people).

 

Note that I have already addressed at length the MISCONCEPTION that animals sacrifices PLEASED God. They didnt in my opinion, as was made clear by the later prophets which I have quoted at length in this thread.

 

Curious to hear your take on these points and your reaction to this whole thread (if you want to read it that is, cuz I know it is long - but it is also very interesting and people's views are very fascinating).

[Crash]

CG I have read the thread in totality and am not talking about the sacrifices conducted, nor do I agree or condone with them occurring. There are also issues of factory farming and abuse - human and nonhuman -- done today (which is what I was addressing).

 

As for what God wants us to do, we were made vegan in the Garden of Eden, so that's your answer. The fact that our bodies are designed to be herbivores is also a big indicator, but that's a different thread.

 

I don't believe the vengeful brimstone God as the Bible was not written by Him, but by human beings struggling for survival, both with the land and with the Roman Empire (in fact many of the taboos in modern Christianity are a direct result of trying to stamp out the older religions). The Bible itself was written by people that, while inspired by God, were still just people with all the prejudices and foibles of people.

[Pete]

I'm actually an atheist. I did find this interesting coming from a christian

(ie, their souls have learned and they have agreed to help our souls learn).

That sounds like they have agreed to give their lives & /or suffer for "our" (human) sins, in christian philosphy I'd have thought you'd have shy'd away from making statements that implied that. Unless you're saying the bible was really re-written?

I actually believe that all religion was designed as control tools. They use the fear we all share about death & lack-of-control, & use it as a weapon to subjegate. You can argue with governments, kings etc, but you cannot argue with god. It's the perfect tool for keep the down-trodden in the dirt & not questioning right & wrong for themselves (rather like the tabloids & TV "news" for the secular world)

[Crash]

I'm actually an atheist. I did find this interesting coming from a christian

(ie, their souls have learned and they have agreed to help our souls learn).

That sounds like they have agreed to give their lives & /or suffer for "our" (human) sins, in christian philosphy I'd have thought you'd have shy'd away from making statements that implied that.

What I meant was that this life is really a play with all the characters believing it's the truth. The reason they believe it's the truth is because they have to take it seriously and make decisions based on what the "script" we have chosen to take is. All souls have free will and choices to make - the fact that they can make right or wrong ones indicates we have free will. You learn from the choices you make. The "victims" have agreed to take the risk of your making the wrong choice to help you grow, to help you learn. (Maybe some are advanced, but maybe some also needed to learn about being in that position ? I'm not saying they deserved it, but maybe those souls wanted to learn some other lesson however scary or painful ?)

Unless you're saying the bible was really re-written?

I don't really understand your question ? The bible was written by men, who, while inspired by God, were not God -- and imo they were guessing (and why not push it in your favor ?).

 

Historically there was an ecumenical council in 400 or 500 AD (not certain about the year as I wasn't there ) where all the church leaders got together and decided on what they would and would not put in the bible and what the beliefs of the church were. If you are asking about reincarnation, there were different sects of Christianity that believed in it. Since reincarnation was a threat to their control, church leaders wanted to quash it as people were saying "I'll be good in my next lifetime." Church leaders wanted people under their control right then and there, so you are correct that religion was used as a way to control people by other people, not by God, the Creator, etc.

 

As for arguing with God -- that would be under the premise that there were set rules imo. The rules were set down by the church leaders. Church leaders said that adultery was punishable by death, but Jesus saved a woman from stoning who had committed adultery, so I do not believe there are any set rules -- doing what is right is the only pre-requisite.

[Pete]

Opps, bit of a general rant about the world at the end! Sorry

 

Crash said:

The "victims" have agreed to take the risk of your making the wrong choice to help you grow, to help you learn.

That's a weird idea, because then it could be argued that you have given consent, so infact there isn't a victim, a victim doesn't give consent. Therefore there can be no crime etc?

Infact if this world is "just a play", & the actors cannot do any real harm or indeed good, then whole thing would become a pointless charade. With the "good" seeming to be going back so, the "bad" can attempt to get better, but if not, then maybe next time, pointless, there's even no incentive to improve?

 

Pete wrote:

Unless you're saying the bible was really re-written?

I don't really understand your question ? The bible was written by men, who, while inspired by God, were not God -- and imo they were guessing (and why not push it in your favor ?).

I was saying that it could have been implied that Jesus wasn't a person, (or indeed necessarily human), but was an idea of returning knowing you'd suffer & being willing to do it. Therefore any soul would have the option of returning & suffering for the good of humanity, therefore the term Jesus would be a name covering souls that returned to suffer for our sins, not the son of god (although technically aren't we all supposed to be the children of god-us atheists don't keep up with these things)?

 

As for arguing with God -- that would be under the premise that there were set rules imo. The rules were set down by the church leaders.

Hmm, what about Moses didn't he get a set of rules directly from God, or do you think he went up into the mountains & did a little carving?

 

I'm not having a go at Christians by the way. I don't agree with ya, but then I also don't agree with wicca, hindus, muslims, or anyone who believes in something out there that saves, protects or has any real interest in us. I simply think that falling back on a higher power is a cope out. We all have to face responsibility for our own actions & the state of the world.

If everyone believed this was it, we haven't anymore. Let's make the best of what we had & believed others (including animals) have the same basic wish to just be left to get on with it. Then the world would improve. All this I'm of this religion so you are the infedel, heathen etc so I'm better than you is a big world problem. Most of the problems of this world have been caused by religion & empire. If we got rid of both & actually started just being people, then a lot of problems wouldn't even be an issue. Like if you knew someone in your town was literally starving to death & you had big stockpile of food you didn't even need, you'd give them some. We have on both the US & EU, but we certainly ain't helping people starving, just building our empires using corrupt governments & corperate takeovers in the developing world. & things like Bush saying about teaching abstinance in place of safe sex! Sure if you don't want sex, don't have it, but if you do just give them a chance to do it in safety.

I'm off on a rant now, sorry. I have no problems with people believing whatever they like, just on them trying to force it on people who because of their situation, education or whatever suffer because of it, & I believe both religion & empire are the 2 major causes of world suffering.