Lab-Grown Meat

[sirdle]

I think this is a really bad trend.

 

Every year there are more and more genetically engineered fruits and vegetables on the market. Without exception these varieties have fewer vitamins and minerals than the previous generation. The engineering is not done to increase the nutriciousness of the food, but to increase shelf life and color and size. I cut into a soft, bright red tomato last week and had to throw it away because it was totally green and bitter on the inside. It had been engineered to look good even though it never ripened. It is possible for cattle ranchers to produce cattle with 3-4% body fat. Instead they fatten them up to about 30-40% body fat because they can make more money that way. Which muscle do you think they will clone? That of a nice range-fed, healthy 3-4% body fat animal? Or one that has been fattened up just for you? Will they "enrich" the "refined" product to add back in the vitamins and minerals that were destroyed in the lab?

 

I don't think there is any evidence that this cloned "thing" would be food. How could this muscle get its iron, phosphorus, zinc, and selenium if it is not connected to a blood supply? Everybody here knows that muscles are dynamic. Sure, genetics plays a part, but you make what you want out of your muscles. It takes hard work to build muscle and to keep it toned. What happens when your muscle is in a cast? This thing in the lab... what is it, exactly? How can the myofibrils get larger if they are not stimulated? How can this thing be a muscle apart from metabolism? I can't imagine that it would be good for you at all.

 

It is really quite simple. You don't need meat. Why waste time, and money, and energy, and research dollars on this when there are so many other problems that need to be solved? I don't get it.

[compassionategirl]

 

It is really quite simple. You don't need meat. Why waste time, and money, and energy, and research dollars on this when there are so many other problems that need to be solved? I don't get it.

 

MAN, I could NOT have said this better myself

[Gym hater]

I think this is a really bad trend.

 

It is really quite simple. You don't need meat. Why waste time, and money, and energy, and research dollars on this when there are so many other problems that need to be solved? I don't get it.

 

What makes it that you need something? Is it that you need it to survive? In that case you don't need to be bodybuilding, fitnessing, going to school and other stuff that you probably do. If you wouldn't do these things you could spent more time freeing the world of hunger and poverty. Just look at the Maslov triangle(guess that's what it's called), there are a lot of things you can leave out.

 

Also, you don't need soy, you can easily replace it with some other vegetable product. This is the same as you don't need meat becouse you can replace it with soy. You, as a vegan, just don't eat meat becouse it goes along with animal suffering.

You can try to convince everyone that they don't need meat, but the chance of that ever happening is quite small. And most people just don't care about the animals dying. But lab-grown meat has a better chance of succesfully minimizing animal suffering and bettering the environment, this is becouse (if it can be done) it looks just like real meat and will be much cheaper and healthier than real meat. So for animal suffering purposes it is worth researching. As for the money, it is more profitable than real meat. So for profit oriented companies it is worth the research.

 

I am not saying it can be done, just saying it would be nice.

[Richard]

How could this muscle get its iron, phosphorus, zinc, and selenium if it is not connected to a blood supply? How can the myofibrils get larger if they are not stimulated?

 

I hadn't thought about blood supply. Maybe they will have a pump with cloned blood, like a dialysis machine or something. But from what I've read, the 'muscles' will be stimulated; attached to a machine which expands and contracts them to give them 'exercise'. I am not sure of the finer points of this, but sounds like the stuff won't just be sat there, it will be in motion, which I find kind of gross to think about.

[veganmadre]

Genetically modified stuff just gives me the willies.

[sirdle]

What makes it that you need something? Is it that you need it to survive? In that case you don't need to be bodybuilding, fitnessing, going to school and other stuff that you probably do.

I certainly agree there are many activities I participate in and commodities I consume that I do not need. These things give me pleasure in life, and I wouldn't want to give many of them up. (I choose to exercise because it is necessay for human life, but the type and duration of that exercise is chosen because it gives me pleasure. The same is true for food.)

 

There are many reasons to choose veganism. One of these is to reduce animal suffering and lab grown meat may help in this regard, but I think it is a mistake to think that the "meat" will be more nutritious or cheaper than the real thing. How much could it cost to keep some free range cattle in their natural habitat? No feed and no water! Just round them up once a year and slaughter them. It only becomes expensive when they are taken out of their natural habitat and forced to become something that nature had not intended.

 

I am still struggling with the ethical questions of veganism. I choose not to eat meat because of health considerations. Although the human digestive system is not optimized for meat eating, I do believe that small amounts of wild meat are not harmful and do contain important vitamins and minerals. The modern "factory farms," however, strip these nutrients away, distort the ratio of potassium to calcium, and add huge amounts of saturated fat and cholesterol. It is these "genetic" changes, in my opinion, that lead to many of the modern diseases of the industrialized world. The FDA knows this, but it still floods the school system with propaganda promoting meat and dairy products in order to create another generation of "users."

 

I don't think that the corporate food industry is interested in nutrition.

 

I am not saying it can be done, just saying it would be nice.

Oh, I think it can be done, and therefore it will be done.

[flex24]

MAYBE MOST OF YOU DONT WANT TO EAT MEAT AGAIN, BUT I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE DOESNT WANT TO GO VEGANS, SO FOR THEM IT WOULD BE A PERFECT OPTION. THIS CAN NOT BE TAKE TO THE EXTREME. THE FACT THAT SOME CELLS OF SOME ANIMAL MUST BE TAKEN IS NOR SUFFER NEITHER EXPLOITATION. IT WOULD BE ONLY A FEW TIMES AND NO MORE.

 

FURTHERMORE I MYSELF WOULD HAVE NOT PROBLEM IN PROVIDING SOME OF MY CELLS FOR MAKING HUMAN MEAT.

[Pete]

Yum, A flex24-burger

Not sure of all the ethical ramifications of this. I can't say I support it, not for the ethics to the animals. I think it might help overall animal suffering, but the fact that it will be being a modified product, probably even worse for people to eat, health-wise than meat (which I do think is bad for humans to consume), but that it will be forced onto the poorest sections of our society. The uneducated (or minimally educated) will be fed this & it'll be marketed as the new cheapo-food. it's just ideal for multi-nationals, you produce big-scale, you can "pump out" as much as you want. Produce big, sell cheap.

The best option would be for us to actually start educating the masses, do away with present meat & dairy subsites, or swap them so everyone could buy decent fresh fruit & veggies cheap. THAT would solve about 90% of the western worlds health problems in one shot.

I know for a "quick fix" to the animal issue it might be seen as an advantagous move, but I think it will be the beginning of a new health dark-age for the poor of our countries.

That's my view anyway. I could be well be wrong, we'll have to wait & see how thngs develop

[flex24]

JAJAJA I DIDNT THINK ME AS A BURGER, I WILL THINK TWICE THE NEXT TIME.

WELL SO IN THIS CASE YOUR PROBLEM WOULD BE HUMAN RIGHTS NOT NOT-HUMAN ANIMAL RIGHTS. AT FIRST GLANCE IT SEEMS PERFECT ARGUMENTS BUT YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT THE NEW LAB GROWN MEAT WOULD BE HARMFUL TO HUMAN BEINGS ONLY FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS MADE IN A LAB. WELL THAT DOESNT HAVE SENSE, IN FACT THERE ARE A LOT OF LAB PRODUCTS (AS SUPPLEMENT FOR BODYBUILDERS) THAT ARE TOTALLY HARMLESS AND PERFORM ITS FUNCTIONS VERY WELL (INCLUDING B12 THAT THE ALL VEGANS MUST HAVE IN PILLS).

I THINK INSTEAD THAT THIS NEW MEAT COULD BE EVEN BETTER THAN MEAT FROM FACTORY FARMS. MAYBE IT COULD HAVE LESS FAT FOR EXAMPLE BECAUSE IS MADE IN CONTROLLED CONDITIONS.

BY THE WAY I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT B12 BUT I WONDER: IF B12 IS ONLY FOUND IN ANIMALS, WHERE IS OBTAINED THE B12 WE TAKE IN PILLS? IS SYNTHETIC OR FROM MEAT?

[Sknydpr]

BY THE WAY I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT B12 BUT I WONDER: IF B12 IS ONLY FOUND IN ANIMALS, WHERE IS OBTAINED THE B12 WE TAKE IN PILLS? IS SYNTHETIC OR FROM MEAT?

 

I suspect that it's synthesized, but it's not true that B12 is only found in animals; meat is simply the most reliable of source of it. If memory serves, it can also be obtained from tempeh and some seaweeds.

 

However, I don't buy into the belief that vegans have to supplement B12. While it's been several years, I read an article on a study that indicated that people who do suffer from a B12 deficiency do so because their own body wasn't producing enough. There were no more vegans, percentage-wise, with the deficiency than in the general population.

[flex24]

BUT I HAVE READ THAT FORMS OF B12 FOUND IN VEGETABLE SOURCES AREN´T THE ACTIVE FORMS OF THE VITAMIN. FURTHERMORE I READ THAT THAT VEGATABLE B12 FORMS CAN COUNTERACT THE ACTION OF THE GOOD B12.

 

BECAUSE OF THAT I WOULD NOT RISK MYSELF TO BE VEGAN WITHOUT AN ADEQUATE SUPPLEMENT OF B12 AND I THINK ALL OF YOU ALSO SHOULDN´T.

 

REALLY IM NOT VEGAN RIGHT NOW I EAT SOMETIMES EGGS AND RECENTLY I STOP EATING FISH.

I THINK THAT IT IS AN IMPORTANT DECISION BUT WE CAN NOT OVERLOOK OUR NUTRITION AND LACK OF B12 CAN PRODUCE NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEMS.

Edited September 12, 2005 by flex24

[nobbi]

I suspect that it's synthesized, but it's not true that B12 is only found in animals; meat is simply the most reliable of source of it.

 

If meat is the most reliable source of B12 how do you explain that so many meat eaters suffer from B12 deficincy? Studies indeed show that there are deficincies amongst vegans and meat eaters. Meat is no guarantee and I doubt that it is even reliable. Why are there so many products with added B12? It is the same bullshit with milkproducts. You need milk for calcium they say. But why do we enrich milk products with extra calcium???

 

If memory serves, it can also be obtained from tempeh and some seaweeds.

 

Studies show that this is not true, because the B12 in these products cannot be absorbed by the human body. Well, another study will of course show the opposite

 

... a study that indicated that people who do suffer from a B12 deficiency do so because their own body wasn't producing enough.

 

The B12 produced in our lower intestine is not for our body! It cannot even be absorbed by our body. It is used by bacteriums in our intestine.

 

Keep in mind that B12 is produced by bacteriums. These bacteriums are also on unwashed veggies. The problem is that humans have to wash and clean everything. That's why we have to add B12. But remember, it is not the meat we need for B12. It is a bacterium, which is IN the meat. This makes people believe that we need meat. We don't. We only need other sources for B12. There are also no deficiencies amongst animals, which are vegan!

[Pete]

B12 WAS found in high levels in animals. In the wild, that's still the case, but go to your local farm animal vets & what do you find. B12 injections. yep, the animals are suffeing from B12 deficency. As Nobbi mentioned B12 is produced by bacteria (that's where you get the B12 supplement from by the way, bacteria), we are pumping so much antibiotics into animals that we're killing off their supplies, so unless they inject the animals don't grow properly.

B12 is best absorbed in the mouth. That's why i always recommend getting capsules & opening them, either put the powder under your tongue for a bit, or add to your protein shake, mix with food whatever, but get it into your mouth, if you just swallow a pill many people will absorb little, if any B12.

 

Nobbi was right about the B12 in seaweed etc being analogues of B12, they not only don't work, but "block" the receptors for B12 & can increase symptoms of deficiency.

 

It is technically possible to get B12 from dirt/mud on freshly picked veggies, but you never know if you're getting any, it's a totally unreliable source. the safest way is to just crack open a capsule (or grind a pill if you prefer) & pop it into a drink or under your tongue a few times a week, it costs peanuts & will guarantee you're covered.

 

If you're still worried you can get a homocysteine testing kit from your pharmacist. If it's a high reading, then you're either low in B12, low in folic acid or low in certain minerals. If you're eating ok, the most likely of these is low B12 & it's fully reversable if no nervous tissue damage has occured.

[flex24]

WHAT ABOUT B12 ADDED IN CEREALS OR TO SOY MILK?

 

DO U THINK IT IS A SOURCE AS RELIABLE AS PILLS?

 

FOR EXAMPLE I SOMETIMES WONDER IF THEY REALLY ADD THE VITAMINS AS THEY SAY.

 

BY THE WAY, DO YOU THINK IS WISE TO SUPPLEMENT MY DOG WITH B12 OR TAURINE IF SHE IS GOING TO GO VEGAN? NOW IM LIMITING HER ANIMAL SOURCE PRODUCTS INTAKE BUT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE HER COMPLETELY VEGAN. IN MY COUNTRY THERE AREN´T BALANCED VEGAN FOOD FOR DOGS: ALL HAVE LAMB, BEEF OR CHICKEN.

 

AT LEAST SHE LOVES SOY MEAT AND PREFERES A LOT IT THAN THE ¨BALANCED¨ CLASSIC MEATY FOOD.

[willpeavy]

Hey Flex, this article might answer some of your B12 questions - http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/

[Pete]

Will said:

Hey Flex, this article might answer some of your B12 questions - http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/

 

Yea, I've known Jack a while, he's a recreational bodybuilder & knows his stuff.

 

Not sure about B12 for dogs. Might be worth contacting the Vegan Society about that http://www.vegansociety.com/html/ as they've done some research on these subjects.

[Cristian]

I'm not particularly worried about lacking vitamin B12. As Pete said, you can always take some pills and you should be covered. Besides vitamin B12 is stored and released for a long time in our body so one shouldn't worry too much.

I think that all the vitamins added in soya milk or cereals must be there; I know at least in the UK and Europe these things are well regulated so I tend to trust what's on the box.

I think that most vegans & vegetarians really try to have a balanced diet so I don't worry; I don't think that meat-eaters eat animal products because they contain certain vitamins/minerals; they just do it because is part of our society. Anyway, I think that once a vegan reach a certain age it will be obvious that his diet proved to be healthier.

[violet13]

Exciting part of lab grown meat is no animal cruelty.

I am not sure if I want to eat lab grown meat or not but I just cannot wait to see this new meat on the market.

I was praying for artificial meat that is nutritional and taste just like real meat for almost 30 years!

[Kathryn]

Strange. Very strange. And so misguided, IMO.

 

Salvador Dali once said that the ultimate expression of love is to eat (as in canibalize) the person you love and aside from his being a total whack job (as well as a painter) one could apply his philosophy to this lab-grown meat thing, and dying folks (or maybe even living folks) could donate a portion of muscle cells to grow a hunk o' love meat for their loved ones. Just think: " honey, in honor of your birthday, I'm going to eat some of your meat." Or marrying couples would exchange their meat. Or one could even eat one's OWN meat!

[Ruby17]

Check it out:

 

But close enough, LOL

[Guest]

Lab grown meat is a step in the wrong direction. Vegan organics is a step in the right direction.

 

The ability to provide people with food in an ecologically sound and socially egalitarian way exists. That is part of veganism's commitment to humans, nonhuman and the environment. Decentralized veganic cultivation of plant foods can empower people to take action that will make a difference.

 

Lab grown meat is neither socially nor ecologically viable. The very technology and political arrangements that makes lab grown meat possible are a determent to human and non-human animals, as well as the environment we all rely on.

 

Support of cultured flesh supports the very bio-technology and genetic engineering threatening global food security. This includes the privatization of life through the patenting of organisms and the very building blocks of life. It means that the very food we rely on is being increasingly controlled by corporations. This will only worsen food scarcity for the world's poor. With increasing globalization and the expansion of corporate power the people have less control over their own lives. In the future of bio-tech foods we will have a slavish dependence on corporations like ConAgra and McDonald's.

 

Nor does this new technology bode well for the environment. The more food is processed, the more resource intensive it will be. I highly doubt that synthesized animal protein will not require considerable amounts of energy and water, while producing noxious pollutants during the manufacturing process.

 

I can only hope that vegan advocates will start to give this issue more scrutiny than the ridiculously glib article that recently appeared in VegNews* magazine.

 

*ETA: If you do read VegNews, skip the "Lab Grown Meat" article and read "You Are What You Eat," which asks: "Why do we want to create a parallel universs of highly processed junk food that happens to lack animal products? Why not let nature be our guide instead?"

 

The article notes: "Decades of scientific evidence, not to mention thousands of years of evolution, tell us that the optimum diet consists of whole, unprocessed, plant-based foods. Long before companies made food in factories for profit, ... Nature made food for life."

[CrispyQ]

There will probably always be a market for real meat though it just will cost more. The technology we are discussing does not point to a change in the ethics or mentality of anyone but just a new way to create a product. What I am saying is that this does not take this world one step closer to veganism. The meat habit lives on.

 

 

CollegeB is right on in his statement.

 

I believe the only way the world will go veg is kicking & screaming. If cloned meat is their only affordable source, they will eat it before going veg. It will be much like "Neuromancer" by Gibson or the movie "Blade Runner" where genetically engineered animals/flesh are what the masses have available to them. Only the ultra-rich will be able to afford "real" meat & "real" pets. How ironic, that currently, it is the ultra-rich that want their pets cloned.

 

I believe the world is going to get so frickin' wierd that "Blade Runner" will seem mild in comparison. We don't seem to ever get away from the idea that just because we CAN do something means we SHOULD do it.

[neil]

the majority of the population is not going to go veg*n, at least not any time soon. not that i'm happy about it, but that's the way it is.

 

this technology could greatly reduce the number of animals that have to suffer and die to feed people that don't know about or care about the harm they cause.

 

it will greatly reduce environmental damage, which in turn helps protect animals.

 

regarding eating what's natural, there are tons of ingredients being used that are lab produced, contain toxic chemicals (herbicides, pesticides etc.) antibiotics, growth hormones, genetic modification, contain petroleum, etc.

 

i wish the world would go natural, but it's simply not going to happen. we unfortunately can't put this genie back in the bottle.

 

most of this has already been said, but i wanted to chime in to say i support it.

Edited December 30, 2005 by neil

[neil]

here's another article.

 

Discover Magazine

"Top 100 Science Stories of 2005"

#50: Tissue Engineers Cook Up Plan for Lab-Grown Meat

by Sarah Webb

 

Most of us avoid thinking too hard about the origins of our dinners. We happily eat chicken nuggets, willfully forgetting that they are a meat product derived from formerly living birds. Now science is prepared to make our cognitive dissonance complete. Last June, in a paper published in the journal Tissue Engineering, an international team of researchers proposed a new kind of food handmade for sensitive carnivores (and maybe even vegetarians): meat that comes from a laboratory instead of a farm.

 

Clinical research scientists routinely grow muscle cells in the lab. And NASA-funded experiments have succeeded in culturing turkey muscle cells and goldfish cells as a potential way to feed astronauts on long space missions. Jason Matheny, a graduate student in agricultural economics and public health at the University of Maryland, and his colleagues turned this scheme earthward, proposing two methods for growing meat in bulk. One would culture thin sheets of meat, seeded by cells from a living animal, on a reusable polymer scaffold; the other would grow meat on small edible beads that stretch with changes in temperature.

 

Currently the process is far too expensive to bring lab-grown meat to the supermarket. A tasty fake steak is an even more distant dream: To have the structure of filet mignon, muscle tissue needs bloods vessels, a major challenge to tissue engineers. Still, Matheny says that within several years, lab meat could be used in Spam, sausage, and even chicken nuggets. Europe has taken an interest. The Dutch government has invested $2.4 million in a project that would cultivate pork from stem cells.

 

But will people eat it? Matheny thinks so. "There's nothing natural about a chicken that's given growth promoters and raised in a shed with 10,000 others," he says. "As consumers become educated, a product like this would gain appeal."

Edited December 31, 2005 by neil

[Kathryn]

I just wonder about the "donor" animals, and how cells would be harvested. From all the sci-fi shows I see about cloning (reputable sources of info, right ) it seems that you can't just keep cloning the same cells over and over without some degradation taking place, so there would have to be new sources of cells.

 

I'd donate once in a while! (Why not? Human meat is supposed to taste like chicken! At least according to the Donner party. Though some say frogs legs, which I've never tried, but which I've also seen compared to chicken.)