Astrocat

Hey, they might not only be lying because they are lazy or stupid - they might be being threatened by their callosu boss unless they lie to customers. I worked at a 'quaint little restaurant place' numerous years ago, when i was a teenager, and it was atrocious.... I was forced into it to begin with by my mum, was continually deluged in verbal abuse by the boss, and she was a lazy stupid ignoramus who thought it was amusing to harass me for kicks. A few times she even got in her mum to pester me, too. I think people like her mum should be legally obligated not to ever breed, or something. Anyway, so she was always harassing me and saying i should lie to the customers about all sorts of junk..... I didn;t, but by hell she did not like it. I would have been fired rapidly, but (un)fortunately, I was the only person remotely eligible for the job until the school holidays came around so she had nobody at all to replace me with, and nobody was biting her bait in the local paper.... I would have been thrilled to be fired since likesay i didnt want her poxy below minimum-wage crappy job anyway, but i dersay some folk who worked there might have been less carefree about the prospect of losing their job. Seriously, the old bag would get nasty cheap stodgy savers-brand scones with that nasty lurid red 'strawberry flavour' jam (also from the super savers range of the local supermarket) and some of thast lousy 'squirty cream' that has no substance and has the texture and flavour of shaving foam..... and she seriously expected me to go about telling people it was a fresh homemade scone with homemade jam and fresh cream ("if they ask why it's frothy like that just tell them we whip it up like that ourselves" (incredulous look) "oh come on, I'm not doing that - if you want to lie to them do it yourself. They'd never believe it anyway, if you try" , and she would froth and hiss a bit and make me take it to them, and i would not lie. She also had some bullshit about how she sells "Coca Cola" (aka. nasty sort of flat 8p - for - 2 - litres super savers brand cola) - she would bitch if i threw out sort-of flat or flat cola, because 'it was a waste and just use it if there's some left' , and was flogging really shitty cheap fizzy apple-flavoured carbonated water crap as "Appletise" ..... which fooled nobody, not even little kids..... So uh yeah, to cut a logn story short my point was just that some employees are really maltreated by employers, and might be desperate to keep their job, and will be specifically told to lie to customers. I know for sure that if there had been vegan people in her lousy restaurant she would have been feeding them those crappy skank-buns full of bovine mammary squeezings and trying to cajole me into telling the people that "it's ok, it's vegan as it's made to a special homemade recipe which we cook up in out lovely rustic country overns with our tender fingers" or somesuch similar drivel. Which of course, i similarly would not have said.... but my point is, some people would have no scruples about shamelessly lying to people, others would have scruples but would value their job more than they value honesty, and of course my boss clearly was a lie-master supreme.... although it seemed to me that she was more keen to get others to lie for her, than to do it herself. Anyway, yes - strangers making strange food in strange places when they aren;t vegan, and i don;t even know what sort of people they are - not really my thing, that. : P

I don't pay complete strangers to make food and do my washing up for me, and don't enjoy sitting in rooms full of people stuffing themselves with exploitatively produced pseudo-food items..... so i make my own food, or my lovely boyfriend makes me some, and we never have these kinds of problems (he has the same approach as i do, with regards to going into strange places and asking strange and potentially sociopathic-behaving people who aren't even vegetarian/vegan or anything, to make food for him) I'm sure that our food is lots nicer than the overcooked / bland / predictably bare sort of food which restautants commonly try to pass off as food, anyway, and it involved less farting about to throw together something to eat for a meal, than to fart about going out to somewhere, having to explain before and during the visit about how we're vegan and what vegans do or don't eat, and probably end up being served a skinned alligator in aardvark sauce (since those aren;t really animals, or whatever people reckon). Huzzah !

I consider the article to be mindless drivel. On the subject of eating burgers and sausages made out of plants, someone mentioned this in a myspace topic recently, and my response there is also relevant here. So, here is what i had said - Theyd started by saying So i just asked - He clarified by saying - To which i posted again, saying - it's like that ! mmmmm..... plump moist little children.....

haaa yes, it's ThinkVegan's picture right enough - This is also : http://www.thinkvegan.net/media/1/20060909-dia_sin_carne_002.preview.jpg And the description reads :

That's one of Equality's pictures isn't it ? (or it might be ThinkVegan's, i get the two muddled up since they run the same blogs, are a couple, are both Spanish, and have similar views about compassion etc) I often find their artistic picturess to be intelligent, and well envisioned and created. Well, google reckons that - It does not anger or annoy me in any way, i do find the concept of humans viewing dead bodies as food to be unsavoury and morally repulsive, as well as it being a concept which is unpleasant and ing, including to my senses, and dead bodies certainly produce some incredibly stomach-churning stenches. The way they leak nasty slimy blood-goop is so nasty , as well. I agree with what Richard said - lots of people "choose" to be offended, in many cases seemingly because indignance is being used as a cover for a guilty conscience.... rather than think about important issues (ie, as intelligent people would do) they pick the no-brainer route of just going on about how offended they feel, and how insulted they feel due to being offended, or whatever.... and avoid the actual topic which was being raised. You very often see whole dead fish and whole dead hens in packages like that, for sale .... the hens usually have no fetahers by that stage, but I don't think i would view the picture differently depending on whether or not the human had hair. I read about Hufu a while ago. It intrigues me, but the hufu site appears to have been some sort of scam ( ? ) I imagine it might be tasty like braised tofu, braised gluten, or something similar.

I used to know some flexi-sexuals.... interesting people, they were....

harh ! This video-short by Dan Piraro tackles a similar theme....

I think it's awesome ! Silent Hill is the title given to a series of computer games, and there is now also a recent Silent Hill film as well. Here is an informative description of the Silent Hill series - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hill And, some examples of the sort of artwork used to illustrate the posters, boxes, etc - the images were of this sort of 'sketchy' quality originally, as it's a style which fits in with the feeling of the games quite well. Silent Hill 2 game box-art - http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00007M9SI.01-A3A0QZ9FNO1IC9._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg Silent Hill 3 game box-art - http://www.galaxisnet.hu/termekkepek/normal/pcg/pcg_silent_hill_3.jpg Film poster - http://clan.is.free.fr/silentHill/affiche.jpg The environment outside tends to be pretty misty / foggy, and rather bleak - the scene which Richard used looked rather Silent Hillish to begin with, but it Silent-Hilled up nicely, and now looks rather more so. For example, this is an in-game scene : http://www.xgpgaming.com/xbox/images/SILENT%20HILL%204%2003.jpg Please excuse the large images - I'm not using my own computer right now, and the server for my webspace for VegansRock is down right now, so I've just linked to the images rather than resizing them, uploading, then linking to those.

Why do you feel that dirt is "nasty" ? I was not making an argument, simply offering my vomit production services to the wider masses. I am incapable of mushroom, bean and carrot production, at least to the extent of offfering them to others, so your assertions that my offer would also apply to them is flawed. Eating something grown in shit, is different from eating the shit itself. Perhaps you disagree. I agree.

Yeah..... I thought that the Meatrix sucked because it's intended to promote organic flesh production (and consumption), and was funded by the animal abuse industry for that purpose.

If anyone here would like to drink or eat a jar of someone else's vomit, I will willingly provide these free of charge (other than postal cost) , although i do request a little advance notice as my production equipment does not run 24/7 (fortunately for me ! ) In this way, everyone here would be able to consume someone else's barf - without feeling a compulsion to support the exploitation or abuse of anyone, in order to do so. problem solved !

Whether or not bees feel the sensation of emotional or physical pain does not influence whether i view them as objects for humans to exploit. If i were to claim that they are non-sentient and incapable of feeling pain, and were using that as some kind of excuse for why i think abusing and exploiting them is totally okay with me, then logically i would need some type of foundation for my somewhat debatable assertions. Unless i was simply callous, of course. Dribbling out insults without any basis proves nothing, and simply shows that you are being belligerent. Eh ? Was that meant to be an insult ? Uh.... whatever. If you want to claim that you don;t care about bees at all, and couldn;t care less whether there is evidence showing their lack of sentience or not, then that is one thing..... but to claim that they definitely are not sentient, capable of emotion, or capable of feeling pain (when even scientists say that can not be said for certain), just because you want to believe what it suits you to, is an entirely different matter, and somewhat arrogant and inappropriate. Especially in a vegan forum. I find it all to be very distasteful, and somewhat trollish. Why should i require solid evidence of bees' sentience, in order to have an ethical, respectful , compassionate approach to animals both big and small ?

There are people with a conditioning resulting in a lifelong inability to feel pain (their pain receptors do not function in a healthy manner) I wouldn't exploit them, or drink their barf, either.

I dersay that one could, but that has nothing to do with the question which i asked you. The question was Where is there already evidence to show that bees are not sentient. , not "where can i learn more about bees' central nervous systems" Perhaps you do not understand what is meant by "sentient". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient So you have no idea what the books say, have no idea how credible they might be as sources accordingly, and do nto even feel that you need to understand the data which was used to compile the table - a load of ticks and crosses in boxes on some website is enough to convince you ? Wow now THAT's good science. If you do manage to find any evidence that bees are non-sentient, I'm sure it will be fascinating to read it.

The pill is tested on animals, and purchase of it gives profit to pharmaceutical industries who continue to abuse animals in this way, so it seems like minus six and minus half-a-dozen, to me, from a veganly perspective. I wouldn't dose myself up on hormones, especially not the Super-HardcorePill *use only in critical situations* , anyway, but if the two options would be (A) people have lots of penetrative vagina-themed sex, and produce lots of babies or (B) people have lots of penetrative vagina-themed sex, and do lots of weird stuff with hormones to prevent pregnancy, thus not producing lots of children. ... then i would say that option B is preferrable to option A..... but that all the same, it's the best of a bad lot. If i were going to go in for that particular brand of rumpy pumpy, i would prudently go to a doctor beforehand and claim to be up the duff, in order to be able to stockpile the 'morning after pill' in advance..... i certainly wouldn;t decide to use contraception which might fail, then go running about at the last minute when it eventually does just that but maybe that's just me. It seems so unnecessarily stressful not to do a bit of forward planning when it comes to stuff like this, is how i see it.

Where ? I find you to be arrogant, patronising, condescending, you are obviously debating your approach that exploitiong bees is ok since they are to your mind non-sentient. You made that up. I said that table is not convincing. Which it isn't. I have read none of the books it references. You did not answer my question - have you read them ? There was no "obvious" about it. What an arrogant, patronising, belittling, condescending comment to make.

I never mentioned your specific studies in the comment which you quoted. As you must surely be fully aware. I could say the same to you. You are being incredibly belligerent towards me.

Oh... I forgot to mention, also.... You know that link, the one about prof. Farstad ? It does not mention that : "Honeybees deserve special care", Prof Farstad said, "because they display social behaviour and a capacity to learn and cooperate." It was a very "selected info" sort of article, condensed from another one already written. This is the one it was taken from : ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1408050,00.html ) I really do feel wary and will question it, when a dominant and powerful group of beings (humans) put out information about a less powerful group (nonhuman animals) , which has the end result of justifying abuse to the nonpowerful group (who the powerful group wishes to exploit). I could find the studies from scientists who once said that certain ethnic groups are not as intelligent, able, etc. as pink people, which were once used to justify slavery, enforced subserviance of the minority groups, and so forth. To repeat that bees are not humans, does not justify support of their exploitation. [/code]

I found that advert to be somewhat educational, and incredibly meaningful and worthwhile. I had an epiphany with regards to how dumbassed some people can truly be, while watching that advert. Also, i prowl more than that guy in my sleep.

Did you read those articles you posted ? Re: http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/03/03/stories/2005030301751500.htm From the article - Re: http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~gary/awvar/lecture/pain.html A table like that is not convincing to me. Have you read the books which the data is compiled from ? Re: http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm From the article - In other words "we don;t know, but we'd like to assume that they do not feel psychological pain" Bees both engage in social behaviour, and also respond vigorously to noxious stimuli by tryign to sting their aggressor/s. I'd hardly call that overwhelming evidence to show that exploiting bees is all okay, although perhaps some others here disagree.

AllIveEverTouched: Please leave your pro-animal-exploitation garbage out of a veganly discussion. It was you who started it by trying to claim that bees are like complicated robots, and lack sentience (using that as your excuse for rationalising their exploitation). Unless you are a complete recluse who never speaks to anyone, even online, then it is perfectly possible to ascertain what people think without needing to have mind-reading capabilities. It involves flapping your face in a certain way and manipulating your vocal chords just so.... or alternately waggling your fingers in a certain sort of way, in the direction of a computer... otherwise known as talking and writing, these are very effective methods of communication. Rather more effective than mind-reading, I am sure we can all agree. Actually there's a lot of evidence to prove that bees are sentient so your approach makes no sense. Yes, we are indeed talking about bees. Why you feel a need to robotically keep repeating that bees are not humans is anyone's guess. My point (as i already said quite clearly) is that before there was evidence proving that human babies are sentient, lots of people used the lackof evidence as complete justification for maltreating human babies. Perhaps you see nothing wrong with the "let's treat them badly until it is irrefutably proven that they are sentient" approach.... Or perhaps you are prejudiced, and find that immoral when used as an excuse to abuse humans, but not when that is applied to bees. It is clear that you do not give a toss about bees, are willing to be cruel to them, are being belligerent and rude (to me, at any rate), and seem to be posting in this topic solely to try and justify and rationalise your support of animal exploitation- even though it is entirely unnecessary. Since this is the situation, then obviously it is not likely to be worth my time to discuss ethics with you in terms of compassionate and considerate approaches towards bees. But if the person views the 'risk factor' only in selfish terms, and wouldn;t care less if it turns out that bees are sentient, then they will determine that there is 'zero risk factor' in that circumstance. Indeed so. Says who ? Besides, so what ? Are you saying that the further animals are away from human evolutionarily, the more justified you feel in supporting their exploitation ? AllI'veeverlearned has made his stance quite clear, has dismissed sites like http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm and so forth, and is adamant that exploiting bees is ok. I have yet to see his irrefutably credible evidence that bees feel no pain whatsoever, are entirely oblivious to their life experiences, are incapable of feeling any form of emotion or awareness, and are entirely unaffected by the sort of treatment which humans put them through inorder to get honey. Even though he is so quick to poo poo anything that others have been posting, to the contrary.

Medical "professionals" are not adverse to the "You don't look in pain, so you are not in pain" approach, when encountering ill people in great pain, who are not easy to treat with drugs (such as those with Fibromalgia or M.E) With an approach like that, it's not surprising that they have the same attitude towards other animals. There are also many people who subscribe to the 'free choice is all an illusion' philosophy with regards to humans and the paths they take through life. But even if free choice IS all an illusion, and all we do is go through life following what is expected , in accordance with what has already happened to us in the past and how that influences future choices, would that make it ok to abuse humans however i wish - if i were to want to do that ? I don;t think so, but perhaps some others here disagree.

I keep babies in my basement in a state of neglect, so that i can drink their vomit. I have to kill them before doing so, but it's ok because before it was disproven there was a lot of scientific evidence to suggest that they are non-sentient, and much like complicated robots in composition. Obviously, their mental capacity is a lot below mine, so i reckon that makes it all ok. I view them as being kind-of like a soggy squishy large type of bacteria. A lot of the time they just sort of lie there and gurgle when i go down to shuriken them into submission, or cleave them in two with a katana, so i guess they don't have any fight or flight response to what i'm doing. I guess i could assume that they are sentient until proven otherwise, but why give them the benefit of the doubt ? They just don;t have very well-evolved brains (thus why they spend their days producing an assortment of body fluids and being entirely incapable of surviving on their own) so I don;t see what the big deal is. edit - and there isn't an even bigger gap between bees and fruit trees ?

I used to know this guy - after watching the Burgerking advert he grew 50 penises and developed a very manly 'grunting' style of speech, and a lumbering manner of movement - which as a REAL man he was very happy with..... BUT then he made the terrible error of eating a soy-based veggie burger, and ever since then he's spoken in a sort of falsetto voice, he minces around with a sashaying sort of gait to his walk, and all of his penises retrcated right back into him, to be consumed entirely by his soy-infected body.

Many people do the same with heroin.... That doesn't mean it's a good idea, though.