Would You eat Eggs If...

I'm totally disallusioned with this Vegan philosophy thing!

To be honest if this is what it's all about then I really don't think that there's that much difference between vegans and the meat eaters.

It seems to me that the philosophy states that it's ok to eat animals if they are raised in a friendly enviroment

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

WOW!!!

 

I always thought vegans were against eating animals period!

 

I really cannot understand the efforts of those "vegans" who turn things upsidedown by eating non-vegan products. What are these efforts good for?

According to the Vegan Society, veganism is a "philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Mmmh. In the vegan societys faq I found the following:

Q: What is a vegan?

A: A vegan is someone seeking a lifestyle free from animal products for the benefit of people, animals and the environment.

A vegan therefore eats a plant-based diet free from all animal products, including milk, eggs and honey. Most vegans do not wear leather, wool or silk.

I do not think that there is much space for interpretation. Here is what they say to free range eggs:

Q: What's wrong with free range eggs?

A: Free Range" eggs often conjure up idyllic images of hens scratching in the farmyard. The reality is often very different. They are often kept in "Barn"-type houses in flocks of up to 16,000 in large sheds. They are often debeaked. The birds must have access to the outdoor range area, which can be stocked at a maximum of 2,500 birds per hectare of land available to the hens. However, in large-scale free range units, often less than 50% of the birds regularly go outside. As with all commercial laying hens, after usually a year of egg production they are slaughtered.

Even if it were possible to produce cruelty-free animal produce, all of the associated harmful effects on human health and the environment would remain.

I'm totally disallusioned with this Vegan philosophy thing!

 

To be honest if this is what it's all about then I really don't think that there's that much difference between vegans and the meat eaters.

 

It seems to me that the philosophy states that it's ok to eat animals if they are raised in a friendly enviroment

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

No one has said that they would eat an animal. Eating an animal would require killing it, and that's obviously contrary to every understanding of "vegan" possible.

(Of course, we haven't had the discussion of whether people would eat animals who died of natural causes. Eating a carcass that happens to be lying around is parallel to eating eggs that happen to be lying around, in my view.)

Anyway, the discussion here is whether people would eat unfertilized eggs that were left around by rescue hens. Some people have said they would. Eating the eggs that are left around wouldn't require that anything different be done to the hens. So some people are saying that they don't see anything wrong with eating or using an animal product if it can be gotten without any effect on the animal(s). I think that we all agree that breeding and raising animals to provide such products does have a negative effect, so the only situation we're considering is if you have rescue animals and they leave waste products around--is it okay to eat the eggs or use the manure for fertilizer?

I understand what your saying and respect your viewpoint but to me eating an egg is eating an egg it's still depriving a life!

I'm not really into the whole Vegan philosophy because I think it's open for too many different interpretations so don't think I'm debating with you or judging anyone else for their decisions, I'm just learning from other Vegans here:wink:

Don't worry Bigbwii, I'm talking about if you are stranded somewhere, starving and happen to come upon an egg -- not growing chickens and eating their eggs.

Does that still make me a questionable vegan ?

I'm the wrong person to ask

I'd go foraging

I would look for fruits or at the very least I would eat leaves

I used to eat Dandelion leaves when I was back in England.

I've always thought that Vegans were against all forms of animal usage,

I guess I was wrong, no worries

Anyway, the discussion here is whether people would eat unfertilized eggs that were left around by rescue hens. Some people have said they would. Eating the eggs that are left around wouldn't require that anything different be done to the hens. So some people are saying that they don't see anything wrong with eating or using an animal product if it can be gotten without any effect on the animal(s).

I think this argumentation is so hypothetical that it is not worth having it. Being vegan means not consuming animal derived food. It does not matter where you draw the line or if you use scales (1-100 ). It is not vegan and unethical. Everyone chooses what to put into his mouth.

I'm totally disallusioned with this Vegan philosophy thing!

 

To be honest if this is what it's all about then I really don't think that there's that much difference between vegans and the meat eaters.

 

It seems to me that the philosophy states that it's ok to eat animals if they are raised in a friendly enviroment

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

"True" veganism says it is always wrong to animal products. The end. Me and the others who think it is okay to eat eggs from free range hens aren't really "true" vegans (and there are plenty of "real vegans" who will berate people like me until the end of time for consuming small amounts of honey, or thinking it is okay for indiginous people to fish, etc). So yeah, if you want to get technical, I'm really a "near-vegan" or a "herbivorous person" or "someone who avoids meat, dairy, eggs as much as possible." But there is a HUGE difference between my view, and the view of the typical meat eater who gets their lunch at Burger King.

Me and the others who think it is okay to eat eggs from free range hens aren't really "true" vegans (and there are plenty of "real vegans" who will berate people like me until the end of time for consuming small amounts of honey, or thinking it is okay for indiginous people to fish, etc). So yeah, if you want to get technical, I'm really a "near-vegan" or a "herbivorous person" or "someone who avoids meat, dairy, eggs as much as possible." But there is a HUGE difference between my view, and the view of the typical meat eater who gets their lunch at Burger King.

@Will: But why do you want/like to eat the animal derived products you mentioned above? If you agree that it is not necessary under normal conditions, I really do not understand why you stick to it...

Thanks for the explanation Will

Flanders77, I guess it's the same reason why people smoke when they know it's not good for them...

@Bigman: Egg-addiction?

Just kidding! You are right I think. And that is really sad.

Would the same view go towards not using the poop from the animals that are on your land for fuel like they do in India or for manure etc? I think it's more of a symbiotic relationship. The soil and earth and trees need the animals and us and it all goes in a cycle. I don't think we need eggs, but the other animals might want them, I certainly wouldn't throw them away or hide them from say my dogs or something.

"Green manuring" is all that is required to grow the crops that humans consume. There is absolutely nothing special about animal manure that makes it indispensible. Yes, certainly soil, water, animals etc. are all part of the life cycle, but certainly not "farm" animals. They have been artificially introduced to support animal agribusiness and serve no practical use outside of this realm. Animals that occur naturally in nature will get along just fine without the eggs of a domesticated animal--food chains will accordingly adjust.

I'm so tired of talking to health only vegan/vegetarians who are always just thinking about themselves so much.

It's been my experience that vegans are NOT enough concerned about their own health and an environment free of pesticides and animal waste, bird flu, brucellosis, mad cow disease, etc. There is entirely too much emphasis placed on domesticated animal welfare, when, as I stated before, if there was no such thing as animal agriculture, this problem would not exist to begin with. Hens, pigs and cows exist solely for the benefit of animal product consumers and nothing more--but they are not compulsory for sustaining human life or sustaining a balanced ecosystem.

I'm the wrong person to ask

 

I'd go foraging

 

I would look for fruits or at the very least I would eat leaves

 

I used to eat Dandelion leaves when I was back in England.

 

 

I've always thought that Vegans were against all forms of animal usage,

I guess I was wrong, no worries

Personally I wouldn't eat it, so you're right (although honestly who knows how one will react until they're in that situation ?) When I first became a vegetarian everyone around me kept telling me I was going to get sick, but it didn't matter - I would rather not be in good health than eat meat. Then I found out that it was better for a body not to eat meat. Then I found out what a big (negative) impact agribusiness has on the environment and food supply around the world.

I am against all forms of animal usage.....but if there was a loved one who was starving to death, I am not too proud (or noble) to feed them an egg if there was nothing else around (no foraging available). Let me clarify, not capturing the chicken for its eggs or killing it, but a one shot deal of giving them sustenance until something else could be found -- but that's just me and I still consider myself a vegan.

Veganism is just a word, everyone has a different idea of what is moral and what isn't, and that's what this thread is about really. It isn't about the 'definition' of veganism, it's about what each person individually thinks is moral. Somebody can say to someone else that they are 'by definition' not vegan because of XYZ, but that is irrelevent when dealing with morals.

Again, if someone found a chicken somewhere which was suffering, and domesticated it for its own good rather than let it die, and didn't breed it, and didn't make money out of it, then that chicken laid an egg, there are two options: either leave the egg and it rots, or they take the egg and eat it. From a moral point of view, the only thing that can be said is that it's stealing something from that chicken because you take the egg without consent. The egg hasn't been fertilized so it isnt anything to do with killing or preventing life etc. Stealing the egg, as far as I can see, is hardly immoral in itself, given that time and time again, a chicken would not have any use for the eggs, it would be like 'stealing' someone's dust from their skin, or 'stealing' their hair which is on their hair brush. It's not very important.

To me, the problems with buying commericial eggs, in order of severity:

- The direct links with killing of animals (esp. male chickens)

- The constant barbarity and cruelty like de-beaking

- The poor conditions

- The breeding into captivity for no reason

- The stealing of the eggs

But the first 4 are WAY more important, the stealing is a tiny tiny thing. And no, even if chickens were kept in very good conditions and looked after properly, I still wouldn't fund that company because they would still be breeding into captivity, that is still exploitation. Also, like I have said, I wouldn't eat an egg anyway, no matter how it was gained, because it isn't food to me. But if someone else ate the egg that I mentioned above, that's not something I am going to make a song and dance about because there really isn't any significant suffering going on there.

WOW!!!

 

I always thought vegans were against eating animals period!

 

Me, too!

And if you think about it, no matter how the egg was obtained (and I agree that if someone has a chicken or two or three, those chickens will lay eggs no matter what, and if the chickens are kept and allowed to live their chicken-lives without being killed for food, or when somebody just gets tired of them, the eggs could be 'humanely' obtained).

BUT, if you are a 'vegan' and eat the eggs, first off, you're not a vegan, and if you say you are to someone, you are confusing them, and making the same error that the chicken- or fish- eating so-called "vegetarians' do and corrupting the meaning of the word.

Also, I'm sure there will be some non-vegan who can say "you say you're a vegan and are healthy and fit, bla bla bla,, BUT you eat eggs. How do you know it's not the eggs that keep you healthy? How do you know that a vegan diet CAN be healthy."

Veganism is just a word, everyone has a different idea of what is moral and what isn't, and that's what this thread is about really. It isn't about the 'definition' of veganism, it's about what each person individually thinks is moral. Somebody can say to someone else that they are 'by definition' not vegan because of XYZ, but that is irrelevent when dealing with morals. .

Sigh....I know Richard. Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting upset -- I just wish we could all stop judging each other (me included).

if someone ate the eggs, they wouldn't be 'vegan' but I don't think they'd be highly immoral, I would hardly judge them at all.

BUT, if you are a 'vegan' and eat the eggs, first off, you're not a vegan, and if you say you are to someone, you are confusing them, and making the same error that the chicken- or fish- eating so-called "vegetarians' do and corrupting the meaning of the word.

I agree with this (yes I know I'm judging ). I have to agree that if you consume any animal or animal byproduct you are not a vegan. In the normal world, no matter how humanely you may treat anything -- you are still not entitled to take its property without consent and would you really want to eat a body excretion ? The egg and dairy and meat industries have confused people so much into thinking that bodily fluids and body excretions are food - not to mention the flesh itself - I mean would you eat your Aunt Griselda or Uncle Josh for food ? I wonder if people really knew and understood what they were consuming, would they really consider it food ?

I think we as people have just as much or just as little as little of a right to take from a chicken as we do to take from the earth. Unfortunately to live we must eat living things be it plants or animals. I do not eat eggs but I know we had this conversation before and I already expressed my views on this. I do not think you can define a vegan as simply being someone who does not eat animals or animal derived products because that says nothing about wearing animal skins, using cosmetics with animal ingredients, or buying things that have been tested on animals. I think being vegan means you do everything in your power to prevent suffering. By that definition eating eggs from a bird that gets to live a happy and free life is vegan just as much as being a freegan is vegan. I think too often we are so worried about doing the “vegan thing” we forget what it is all about. Last year I read an article in a local paper. The author was complaining about some protesters in front of a store selling furs. He said he hated it when people gave him a hard time for wearing leather shoes and made some smart ass comment like “do they thing their vinyl shoes were wished into existence by Buddhists monks?” It seems that there are many vegans who don’t stop to think about how a product is made or if it will biodegrade as long as it is “vegan”.

I also what to say that I think it is true that a person might treat an animal different if it was supplying food, just as some people treat the earth different because it supplies food. This can definitely be a bad thing but it doesn’t have to be. You can see these things as being here for your use and as such you are entitled do with them as you see fit. Or you can see that we are all part of one ecosystem and if you work to protect and care for these things, instead of just taking, they will in turn provide for you too.

Me and the others who think it is okay to eat eggs from free range hens aren't really "true" vegans (and there are plenty of "real vegans" who will berate people like me until the end of time for consuming small amounts of honey, or thinking it is okay for indiginous people to fish, etc). So yeah, if you want to get technical, I'm really a "near-vegan" or a "herbivorous person" or "someone who avoids meat, dairy, eggs as much as possible." But there is a HUGE difference between my view, and the view of the typical meat eater who gets their lunch at Burger King.

 

@Will: But why do you want/like to eat the animal derived products you mentioned above? If you agree that it is not necessary under normal conditions, I really do not understand why you stick to it...

I don't want/like to eat the animal derived products I mentioned above and I never claimed to want or like to eat them. I just don't see anything unethical about eating the eggs from truly free range hens if someone wants to. I don't like the way they treat hens in factory farms, or even the commercial farms that claim "free-range" but sell their eggs in grocery stores, and that is the main reason I don't eat them. I don't claim to be a true vegan or remain true to Donald Watson's vision or anything like that. I think Matt Ball's quote - "Being vegan, for me, is about lessening suffering and working for animal liberation as efficiently as possible. It has nothing to do with personal purity or my ego. If, by some bizarre twist, eating a burger (or, better yet, a triple-cheese Uno's pizza) were to advance animal liberation significantly, then I would do it" - sums up pretty much how I feel, except that I don't really even like to claim to be vegan anymore because I've encountered enough people on message boards that are quick to point out that if I don't follow the most hardcore rules of veganism to the letter than I am anti-vegan or speciesist or something of that nature. Hopefully that clarifies where I'm coming from.

@Will: Sorry if I "stepped on your feet"! I obviously interpreted this uncorrectly:

people like me until the end of time for consuming small amounts of honey

It sounded to me as if you actually eat animal derived food not only by mistake.

I just think that there are hardly any situations in our normal lifes where it is impossible to avoid animal derived food.

For me being vegan is not about following hardcore rules and I really do not want to fingerpoint on others. I just really like to understand how "being vegan" can be turned around into: "if it is cruelty free (who wants to decide that?), it is okay. And if eating meat or whatever (pizza etc.) serves AL it is okay." The second argument would justify any unethical behaviour if it serves a good purpose. I do not agree to that.

I think being vegan serves AL. Period.

But to say it once again: I really would like to understand. I do not want to fingerpoint.

Hey Flanders thanks for commenting, no offense was taken, so no worries about stepping on my feet. One of the reasons I like this message board so much is because people on here tend to be more open minded and positive about things. Whereas some other vegan boards I've been on people just want to call you names if you don't adhere to the exact extreme of the animal rights philosophy that they specify. ... Anyway, you were saying you don't understand my perspective. Basically I feel this way: "Who cares if you're vegan? "Vegan" is just a word. You could go around telling people you are Papa Smurf and that wouldn't really make a difference to me either. What matters if people are conscious about how their decisions affect the world and then do something about it." In an applied instance, my attitude could be conveyed like this --- say I have a friend who eats meat 3 times a day, but after I give the friend some information he says, "Okay, I want to cut back on meat. I'm going to start eating one entirely vegetarian meal a day." I could respond with something like, "Yes but you are still oppressing the hens, chickens, cows, etc with your other 2 meals..." Or I could say, "Awesome. I'll show you some good stuff to eat for your vegetarian meal." If someone told me, "I'm going to only eat eggs from hens that live in a cage free yard at my friend's farm." I could go into some lecture about how the person is contributing to the social construct of treating hen's eggs as food products and yadda, yadda, yadda... Or I could say, "Cool, good idea." You know, why bother worrying about people who eat eggs from free range hens? When people do that I think they miss the bigger picture. There are billions of hens crammed into factory farms, so why waste energy worrying about some hippies who eat free range eggs?

Will:

I agree with you completely!

First rule is to stay positive towards other people. If you can make 5 people eat 1/5th less meat then you have in fact created 1 vegan and 5 people that are going to feel healthier. This approach is usually more effective than banging your head against the wall trying to get your ordinary meat eating American to cut out animal products all together. Since he will feel healthier on this new diet he will go further himself when he is ready. Babysteps.

It's also better for your own ego. If you try to solve unsolvable problems all you will get out of it is frustration. If you instead take babysteps, planting seeds as you walk, you will succeed with the small goals and the big picture will be brighter.

Again, it doesn't matter what's on ones dinner plate at the end of the day if one were an a-hole all day long.

@Will: Concerning that promoting veganism (or first just eating less animal derived food) I agree to you. But I also think it is important not to forget the long term goal. A friend of mine for example stopped eating meat (still ate fish, eggs and dairy). I encouraged him and after one year he also stopped eating fish. Maybe someday... I do not overload him with information but if he asks or if it seems to me it is the right moment I tell him that he is on the right way and should go one step further.

But when you ask:

There are billions of hens crammed into factory farms, so why waste energy worrying about some hippies who eat free range eggs?

I think every action (no matter how small) is important not only for bigger picture but also for the developement of each individual (even it he/she is an a*hole ).

I also enjoy this forum because of the different opinions presented without offending each other (in most of the cases...)

Hey Flanders thanks for commenting, no offense was taken, so no worries about stepping on my feet. One of the reasons I like this message board so much is because people on here tend to be more open minded and positive about things. Whereas some other vegan boards I've been on people just want to call you names if you don't adhere to the exact extreme of the animal rights philosophy that they specify. ... Anyway, you were saying you don't understand my perspective. Basically I feel this way: "Who cares if you're vegan? "Vegan" is just a word. You could go around telling people you are Papa Smurf and that wouldn't really make a difference to me either. What matters if people are conscious about how their decisions affect the world and then do something about it." In an applied instance, my attitude could be conveyed like this --- say I have a friend who eats meat 3 times a day, but after I give the friend some information he says, "Okay, I want to cut back on meat. I'm going to start eating one entirely vegetarian meal a day." I could respond with something like, "Yes but you are still oppressing the hens, chickens, cows, etc with your other 2 meals..." Or I could say, "Awesome. I'll show you some good stuff to eat for your vegetarian meal." If someone told me, "I'm going to only eat eggs from hens that live in a cage free yard at my friend's farm." I could go into some lecture about how the person is contributing to the social construct of treating hen's eggs as food products and yadda, yadda, yadda... Or I could say, "Cool, good idea." You know, why bother worrying about people who eat eggs from free range hens? When people do that I think they miss the bigger picture. There are billions of hens crammed into factory farms, so why waste energy worrying about some hippies who eat free range eggs?

Will,

I tend to keep this pretty quiet, but over the 11 months this new version of our forum has been up, I feel like you might be the person I have the most in common with. We have very similar approaches to things, opinions on things, and we also appreciate a lot of the same things. The only main difference we have is you do greater range of motion on pull-ups and probably push-ups too.

Sometimes I have a hard time keeping up with all the threads, but I have to say that we are on the same page nearly all the time, and you gave the same response I would give to this situation.

Of course, as most people know since I often talk about it, I do focus on the Big Picture too. So thanks Flanders for reminding us not to forget about it.

I haven't read all the posts on the egg topic, I'm kinda jumping in, but of course I am against eating eggs for any reason, but like some have said, in the grand sceme of things we have more important things to worry about, protest, speak up about, than eggs from free-range hens.

It is a very interesting subject though. It is probably one of the toughest topics for me and probably for others in animal rights/vegan debates with non-vegans.

Cheers to the open minds, thanks for the multiple comments about the friendliness and open-minded attitude and integrity the forum keeps. That was one of my main goals for the beginning, and I'm glad to see nearly a year later, we're still staying true to that desire and I think we are making a positive impact on our audience.

....back to more push-ups now....with Will Peavy-style range of motion. I just hope I don't hit my back on the ceiling

-Rob