Omega-3...Do we need flax and fish oil?

[beforewisdom]

Nobody knows one way or the other if vegan can or can not do all of the conversion they need. I've seen Brenda Davis RD ( ADA Position Paper On Veganism ) talk several times. She said that early research ( translation, the next best thing to flat our ignorance ) seems to indicate that it varies by individuals. Some people can and some people can't.

 

In addition to taking 1 - 2 tablespoons of ground flax seed a day you can take vegan EPA supplements. So far this is the only source. It comes out to about $1 a day, less then the cost of a soda from the soda machine where I work:

 

http://www.water4.net/products.htm

 

You can also reduce your needs for Omega 3s of all kinds by reducing your consumption of Omega 6. Use less oil when you cook and when you do use oil use canola or olive oil. Reduce your consumption of packaged foods, particularly baked goods. Minimize chip consumption and reduce all of your other fats.

 

HTH

[michaelhobson]

Of all companies, Crisco has a new oil out with algae grown DHA. It sells for about $4 a bottle.

 

http://www.crisco.com/assets/articles_tips/omega_3/prod_omega3.jpg

 

From: http://www.crisco.com/Articles_Tips/Central/Omega_3/Default.aspx

Introducing NEW Crisco® Puritan® Canola Oil with OMEGA-3 DHA!

 

Crisco Puritan Canola Oil with Omega-3 DHA is a smart way for you to make the most out of your everyday meals. Crisco® is the first Canola Oil with Omega-3 DHA – the most complete form of Omega-3. It can be used in everyday cooking and baking without depleting the benefits of the Omega-3's.

 

Crisco Puritan Canola oil with Omega-3 DHA uses life'sDHA – a vegetarian, sustainable source of DHA – and does not affect the flavor of pure canola oil. It lets the full flavor of your food come through. And it contains zero grams trans fat, and is a sodium and cholesterol-free food!

[Zack]

Of all companies, Crisco has a new oil out with algae grown DHA. It sells for about $4 a bottle.

 

http://www.crisco.com/assets/articles_tips/omega_3/prod_omega3.jpg

 

From: http://www.crisco.com/Articles_Tips/Central/Omega_3/Default.aspx

Introducing NEW Crisco® Puritan® Canola Oil with OMEGA-3 DHA!

 

Crisco Puritan Canola Oil with Omega-3 DHA is a smart way for you to make the most out of your everyday meals. Crisco® is the first Canola Oil with Omega-3 DHA – the most complete form of Omega-3. It can be used in everyday cooking and baking without depleting the benefits of the Omega-3's.

 

Crisco Puritan Canola oil with Omega-3 DHA uses life'sDHA – a vegetarian, sustainable source of DHA – and does not affect the flavor of pure canola oil. It lets the full flavor of your food come through. And it contains zero grams trans fat, and is a sodium and cholesterol-free food!

 

That's interesting... The only problem with that is it's in canola oil. It's important to take omega 3's separately from omega 6 since they compete for the same enzyme (right dv?). Also, it's only 20% of the Daily value for dha.

 

Interesting anyways.

[Im Your Man]

I don't know much about omega-3, but I tought there was some in many many things, vegan foods. Soy, nuts, seeds, avocado, olives.

Some may say that the omega-3 from flax is not assimilated by the body, and I've heard the samething about the fats in fish (molecular structure of the flesh of fish is very unstable).

If there's people that don't need to supplement in omega-3, it must be vegans. A vegan diet have naturally the right ratio of omega3-6-9, as long as there is variety in the choice of foods, not eating only coconuts and peanuts... We can't say the samething about animal-based diets, it's all high in sat. fats, low in insat. fats. The only foods that have a bit of omega-3 are eggs and fish...You would die of cholesterol and sat. fats before getting enough omega-3.

[DV]

First, ditto what BeforeWisdom says.

 

Second, I'm not sure if cooking with DHA is acceptable. I know that even moderately high heat denatures ALA (in the form of flax oil) but I'm not sure what it does to DHA. If you are looking for an oil to also supplement DHA then I would stick with Spectrum Flax Oil with DHA and only use it as a cold oil (salads) or as a supplement - and store it in the refrigerator, just as it's sold. The Crisco oil has 32 mg DHA per tablespoon compared to 130 mg for the Spectrum - you also get 7.5 gms of ALA with the Spectrum flax oil. I cannot tell how large the Crisco bottle is so can do no cost comparison. If you are not fond of GMO canola oil then you may not want the Crisco brand, as it is not organic. Just some points to consider.

 

Zack, canola oil has a favorable omega 6 to omega 3 ratio, so it's okay to use if olive oil is not desired for cooking or for taste reasons. Olive oil and canola are both high in mono-unsaturated fats, which do not interfere with omega 6 and 3 fatty acid conversions and do not seem to cause any unhealthy side effects. Canola oil is 55% mono-unsaturated, 25% omega 6 and 10% omega 3 (about 4% saturated). Olive oil is approximately 73% mono-unsaturated, 14% saturated and 11% poly-unsaturated (more omega 6 than 3). All other oils have either a much higher omega 6 or saturated fat content - that's why you see advice to only cook with olive oil or canola oil.

 

I hope that helped to clear up any confusion.

[Zack]

I don't know much about omega-3, but I tought there was some in many many things, vegan foods. Soy, nuts, seeds, avocado, olives.

Some may say that the omega-3 from flax is not assimilated by the body, and I've heard the samething about the fats in fish (molecular structure of the flesh of fish is very unstable).

If there's people that don't need to supplement in omega-3, it must be vegans. A vegan diet have naturally the right ratio of omega3-6-9, as long as there is variety in the choice of foods, not eating only coconuts and peanuts... We can't say the samething about animal-based diets, it's all high in sat. fats, low in insat. fats. The only foods that have a bit of omega-3 are eggs and fish...You would die of cholesterol and sat. fats before getting enough omega-3.

 

Come on, stop posting outrageous nutritional info.

 

Yes you need omega 3, and you would not die before getting enough from fish or eggs.

[michaelhobson]

The Crisco is $4 for 16 ounces. The Spectrum $16 for 8 ounces.

 

I was almost excited to see non-fish DHA in a children's chewable on the Spectrum web site, only to find they put in a gelatin capsule! WTF?

[nobbi]

I am still surprised how many people are concerned about getting enough (or not enough) of different vitamines, minerales, proteins... and now the omega hype. Come on guys, don't be blind. Don't look at another hip product and feed the nutrition industry with your money, just look at yourself and how you feel. In rich countries we do have the largest choice of fresh and vegan food ever. And still every couple of months I hear something about a 'new' supplement, which is 'essential'.

This sounds like the discussion in the very beginning between meateaters and vegetarians/vegans. The meat industry tried to make us believe that we cannot live without meat. We already have proven that we can. And now we cannot live without supplements? Give me a break.

Edited May 31, 2008 by nobbi

[FormicaLinoleum]

The pills that beforewisdom mentioned have both EPA and DHA.

 

http://www.water4.net/products.htm

[michaelhobson]

I am still surprised how many people are concerned about getting enough (or not enough) of different vitamines, minerales, proteins... and now the omega hype. Come on guys, don't be blind. Don't look at another hip product and feed the nutrition industry with your money, just look at yourself and how you feel. In rich countries we do have the largest choice of fresh and vegan food ever. And still every couple of months I hear something about a 'new' supplement, which is 'essential'.

This sounds like the discussion in the very beginning between meateaters and vegetarians/vegans. The meat industry tried to make us believe that we cannot live without meat. We already have proven that we can. And now we cannot live without supplements? Give me a break.

 

I have to admit, I don't really worry about it.

[DV]

So far I have gotten some good info from Before Wisdom and some more clarification from DV but it seems others are confused about the subject. I was also confused about Omega-3 FA's until I realized that it is made up of 3 different fatty acids that come from different sources.

 

I will leave this last parting question/comment for BW or DV.

 

I use the proper amount of flax seed every morning to get my Omega-3 (ALA) dosage. If I want to insure that I am getting the proper amount of EPA/DHA without relying on the conversion of the ALA in flax seed, I would have to take the EPA supplement BW recommends and then take the DHA flax oil that DV recommends?

 

Do either of you worry about getting all 3 components of the Omega-3 FA's or do you just supplement with the Flax Seed (ALA) and hope you are getting what you need in the conversion?

 

The V Pure capsules contain DHA and EPA. I mentioned the Spectrum flax oil with DHA as a comparison to the Crisco canola - and as an option for those who don't have the money to spend on the V Pure. You will start to see supplementation with EPA as well as DHA once Martek gets its production up to speed. DHA was the first of the long chain omega 3 fatty acids to be produced from sea algae but EPA production is coming. As for right now, only Water 4 Investment Ltd. is producing veg EPA.

 

The only plant source of the long chain omega 3 fatty acids (DHA/EPA) is sea micro-algae. Other plant sources of omega 3 fatty acids are the short chain ALA. It is impossible to know if your body readily converts ALA to EPA and DHA without doing extensive blood tests (and having a health care practitioner who knows what the tests mean). Most likely, the majority of us can convert adequately IF our omega 6 to omega 3 ratio is low enough. How low? That's the question. I've read anywhere from 4:1 to 1:1. If you have a ratio in the 2:1 range and don't want to supplement with EPA/DHA then you are most likely in a healthy place, IMO. It's a personal choice. Keep in mind that many people who live into their 90's have eaten very little fish in their lives, yet do well - because they've eaten very little of the high omega 6 foods available today. So the ratio is more important than just adding EPA/DHA.

 

I personally eat 2 tablespoons of ground flax per day and 3 capsules of V Pure. I also have the Spectrum flax with DHA and use it for salads. My husband has a medical condition that may respond to additional DHA intake, otherwise I would use plain flax. I would encourage additional DHA intake for those who are pregnant or breast feeding since there are studies to back up the results. I also limit my intake of omega 6 fatty acids by rarely eating in restaurants, rarely eating pre-packaged foods and mostly using olive oil or canola oil in food preparation.

 

As for omega 3 fatty acids being "supplements" this is not true. There is a very good book, The Queen of Fats, which describes the "discovery" of omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. PUFAs (poly-unsaturated fatty acids) were thought to be just one fat for decades until there was the discovery of different essential fatty acids. Unfortunately, by that time our food supply was flooded with the more stable omega 6 PUFAs and a jaded public has been asked to change their beliefs on what is a healthy fat yet again. There will always be hype about any "new" healthy food - because there is money to be made. But hype shouldn't push us away from what is an ESSENTIAL fatty acid, despite the probability that there will be misinformation out there regarding this topic.

 

We no longer live in the world that our grandparents grew up in. The food available to us has been modified significantly - even if it is whole food. What is available to us, how it's been stored, where it was grown, how it's been shipped - none of it is "natural" anymore and we don't eat foods in the quantities or ratios available to past generations. The best thing you can do for yourself is educate yourself. And know your source - there is too much bad information out there and it's getting more and more difficult to distinguish it from the good info.

[Im Your Man]

I don't know much about omega-3, but I tought there was some in many many things, vegan foods. Soy, nuts, seeds, avocado, olives.

Some may say that the omega-3 from flax is not assimilated by the body, and I've heard the samething about the fats in fish (molecular structure of the flesh of fish is very unstable).

If there's people that don't need to supplement in omega-3, it must be vegans. A vegan diet have naturally the right ratio of omega3-6-9, as long as there is variety in the choice of foods, not eating only coconuts and peanuts... We can't say the samething about animal-based diets, it's all high in sat. fats, low in insat. fats. The only foods that have a bit of omega-3 are eggs and fish...You would die of cholesterol and sat. fats before getting enough omega-3.

 

Come on, stop posting outrageous nutritional info.

 

Yes you need omega 3, and you would not die before getting enough from fish or eggs.

 

Where did I say we don't need omega-3 ?

I'm saying we don't need omega-3 supplement. Do you think that there's no omega-3 in foods?

Why do people think that Nature is imperfect and unable to nourrish ourself adequatly, so that we need supplements and that those supplements are more perfect ?

Here are some athletes that do not supplement, Tim VanOrden, Richard Blackman, millions of fit people in Africa and third world countries, some olympic athletes, native nations that never supplemented since they exist, are they unhealty?

All those worries about "should I supplement?" appeared only since supplements have invaded the shelves of supermarkets and since people eat defficient foods. Before that, humans have been doing just fine for millenia.

 

By the way, flax seeds are not a supplement, it's a FOOD.

Stop eating deficient foods, and you will not need any supplement.

[michaelhobson]

Your rant sounds silly when talking about this particular subject.

 

Well, aren't you just the Big Kahuna?

[DV]

Well, he did start the thread to ask a serious question, not to be told that his concern over an essential fatty acid was based on hype. Unfortunately, posting doesn't allow for the normal flow of conversation so his response may have sounded more harsh than intended.

[beforewisdom]

I get that so much on the internet.

 

You ask a question or start a subject. Somebody else uses part of what you wrote as a segway to go off and talk about something different.

 

Like I am doing now I guess! LOL!

 

Seriously it happens so much that I am starting to think that it is irrational for me to get annoyed by it. That is just the way internet forums are. I am trying to get in the habit of first looking things up for myself unless I want to socialize by asking a question. I often get my answers faster this way.

 

I can learn a lot by using google with a fast internet connection, reading more than the first page of results, and brain storming new combinations of words to search on.

[Zack]

By the way, flax seeds are not a supplement, it's a FOOD.

 

Never said it wasn't.

[Im Your Man]

By the way, flax seeds are not a supplement, it's a FOOD.

 

Never said it wasn't.

 

I never said you did.

But when people think flax, they think supplements.

Sometimes I quote someone, doesn't mean my post is entirely written to that person.

[ChaserHUN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvOt2Yz9-7o&feature=related

Flax 4ever

[Zack]

By the way, flax seeds are not a supplement, it's a FOOD.

 

Never said it wasn't.

 

I never said you did.

But when people think flax, they think supplements.

Sometimes I quote someone, doesn't mean my post is entirely written to that person.

 

I guess flax oil in a bottle can be considered a supplement, but flax seed (optimal choice imo) is a food.

[Im Your Man]

 

I guess flax oil in a bottle can be considered a supplement, but flax seed (optimal choice imo) is a food.

 

Yes that's true

[nobbi]

I am still surprised how many people are concerned about getting enough (or not enough) of different vitamines, minerales, proteins... and now the omega hype. Come on guys, don't be blind. Don't look at another hip product and feed the nutrition industry with your money, just look at yourself and how you feel. In rich countries we do have the largest choice of fresh and vegan food ever. And still every couple of months I hear something about a 'new' supplement, which is 'essential'.

This sounds like the discussion in the very beginning between meateaters and vegetarians/vegans. The meat industry tried to make us believe that we cannot live without meat. We already have proven that we can. And now we cannot live without supplements? Give me a break.

 

Nobbi,

 

I respect your decision to not worry about essential nutrients that most (not yours) human bodies need, but it would be helpful to either add constructive advice to the post or not post at all. Your rant sounds silly when talking about this particular subject.

 

I don't consider my post as rant. It is just my point of view and I have always thought that this forum was open for everybody to share one's thoughts with the other members.

 

Anyway, I have never said that we don't need omega fatty acids. The only thing I note is that people are focused more and more on supplements instead of on a variety of fruits and veggies, which I PERSONALLY believe is incorrect.

 

As for omega 3 fatty acids being "supplements" this is not true.

I also consider omega fatty acids as a supplement when sold isolated in bottles. Flax seeds could be considered as a natural source, but would you find enough in nature to suit your daily needs?

Edited May 31, 2008 by nobbi

[ChaserHUN]

Just always wondering, where do bigbwii get all theese thing, omega-3, b-12 etc. if he only eats fruits?

[michaelhobson]

Just always wondering, where do bigbwii get all theese thing, omega-3, b-12 etc. if he only eats fruits?

 

That's really simple, he doesn't.

 

It's one of the reasons he was stuffing himself full of beans, oils, tofu, rice etc. just a couple of years ago, in order to actually build some weight and gain some muscle. He had to look good before presenting himself to the world as "the fruitarian one".

[ChaserHUN]

Just always wondering, where do bigbwii get all theese thing, omega-3, b-12 etc. if he only eats fruits?

 

That's really simple, he doesn't.

 

It's one of the reasons he was stuffing himself full of beans, oils, tofu, rice etc. just a couple of years ago, in order to actually build some weight and gain some muscle. He had to look good before presenting himself to the world as "the fruitarian one".

so you say he is a mountebank?

[michaelhobson]

so you say he is a mountebank?

 

I don't know, mountebank may be a bit harsh.

 

But, some things are clear facts. Just a few years ago Big was downing mass quantities of cooked foods, trying to bulk up. He posted before pictures of his skinny self and his new bulky self after months of cooked food. Then he decided to bill himself as "the fruitarian one" and promptly deleted all of the before and after pics and his food blog. He then started violently (with words) opposing anyone who criticized him or fruitarianism in general.

 

So, is he a "mountebank"? I don't know, you'll have to decide that for yourself.