to much protein?

[vegan912]

anyone ever had any stomach problems from to much protein intake?i take in about 180 grams at 170lbs.is there anything i need to know?i have had really bad stomach problems the last week!

[Im Your Man]

it would be hard to know what causes the stomach pain because there can be so many factors. It could be too much fat, or too much protein, or too much carbs. But honnestly I never heard of such problems. There can be digestive problems due to too much food at the same time, or if you eat while your stomach is still processing the meal you had before, it mixes things up. Like food combining rules, eating proteins with fat or carbs can cause stomach pain and slow digestions/assimilation.

[vegan912]

thanks for the info!im gonna lay off the protien for a couple of days to see if thats the problem.

[DV]

I don't really understand the problem here. Protein, fat and carbs are in almost every plant food so there is no way of laying off just one macronutrient - such as protein. Are you talking about laying off protein isolates? I can understand them giving you a problem since they're not a food in the traditional sense. But our digestive tracts are very adept at handling a combination of carbs/fat/protein in most forms that are natural (read, not refined).

[Fallen_Horse]

Of those 190g, how many g's are from powders/shakes/bars?

[DaN]

We have been having a similar chat onanother thread about possible excess protein.I eat a similar amount to you, but have never had bad stomach from it, unless like Im Your Man said, you are eating too much in one go.It could be a dodgy batch of pwder if that is what you use, I have recently got a dodgy batch of soya protein powder which hurt my stomach.But again, it could be so many other things youve eaten.

[SeaSiren]

I would doubt you are consuming too much protein. What you are eating is most likely the factor. Your stomach may not agree with what you are consuming. Also, are you drinking plenty of water? Water intake is very important.

[Im Your Man]

But our digestive tracts are very adept at handling a combination of carbs/fat/protein in most forms that are natural (read, not refined).

If you're talking about eating all 3 nutrients during the same meal, is there a scientific proof to that ? I hate to ask this question a scientific proof " because I'm kind of a luddite, so I could ask instead : is there any proof from biology or that we can witness in nature ?

For instance, some cancers (intestines, colon, rectum, etc) could even be caused by improper food combinings for all we know.

Non-human animals eat very simple and do very few mix, like us before foods became so easily available.

If I digestive system adapted since then (which I doubt, what physiologic changes could have possibly happened ?) does it mean it is completely free of consequences on health?

 

Digestion works with gastric fluids, different for each type of food, proteins -acid, carbs-alkaline. Any experiment in a lab by pouring liquids in test tubes will show you those basic laws of chemistry and the synergy between substances, they can neutralize, or increase the effects, etc.

Of course there is some of all 3 nutrients in all foods, even if sometimes just traces. But a mix in the same food ain't the samething than mixing 2 different foods. We all agree that isolating proteins from a food, it is not the same food anymore, the protein is revomed from its natural context and don't work the same way than as a whole. Natural combinations of fats, protein and carbs in a same food is something natural, it's been made perfect, but to eat 2 different foods that are opposite is another thing. Tilden said that nature never produced a sandwich. Birds eat grains at a meal and insects at another, frequent meals. Humans because of modern lifestyle with contraints in time because of work, leisure, etc invented the "well balanced 3 meals" to combine variety with less meals.

[DV]

Hey, if you believe that you can only eat one food at a time, go for it. As for animals eating only one food at a time - have you ever actually watched animals practice this in nature? If so, watch them some more and you'll see that it's not true. Animals usually eat whatever comes there way.

 

Anyone with a good grasp of human digestive physiology should understand that our digestive system can handle two different foods (and any ratio of macronutrients) at once. Digestion is NOT as simple as pH levels - enzymes are involved (not the kind that come from plants but the kind that come from the human body).

 

Asking if there's scientific proof that our digestive tracts can handle a combination of protein/carbs/fat is like asking if there's scientific proof that we can breathe a mixture of oxygen/carbon dioxide/nitrogen. Why does science need to "prove" something that happens every time we eat or breathe?

[Im Your Man]

DV, do you actually beleive what you just said ?

I see that people who actually argument from a scientific point of view excell when there's sufficient data supporting what they say but when there's a lack of scientific proof in a particular domain and these people are forced to use another tactic they are pretty poor debaters.

 

As for animals eating only one food at a time - have you ever actually watched animals practice this in nature? If so, watch them some more and you'll see that it's not true. Animals usually eat whatever comes there way.

You're right, they eat what they find, and it surely ain't sandwiches. Yes, I see how animals eat in the nature, everyday. I don't live anymore in Montreal city like it says under my name. There's peak-wood, raven, hummingbirds and at least 20 more kinds of birds living around my house. Besides, who never saw a National Geographic documentary showing animals eating in their natural environment ? Give me examples of improper food combining by animals, except the animals that we feed (cats, dogs, cattle) and the animals surviving by eating our wastes in the cities (raccoons, skunks, etc). My cats vomit every week because their food is not made for them. What wild animals vomit after eating in nature ?

Anyone with a good grasp of human digestive physiology should understand that our digestive system can handle two different foods (and any ratio of macronutrients) at once. Digestion is NOT as simple as pH levels - enzymes are involved (not the kind that come from plants but the kind that come from the human body).

We can but we can develop diseases too.

Asking if there's scientific proof that our digestive tracts can handle a combination of protein/carbs/fat is like asking if there's scientific proof that we can breathe a mixture of oxygen/carbon dioxide/nitrogen. Why does science need to "prove" something that happens every time we eat or breathe?

There are different qualities of air and different ways to breathe. What you say is so anti-science that you're basically saying that we shouldn't do any research on air, molecules, biology, digestive functions, human body, nothing, as if we understand already everything in the Universe just because it exists.

[DV]

Are you stoned? Seriously.

[Im Your Man]

good arguments, I think you are very convincing.

btw I don't do drugs nor do I prescribe any.

[RAINRA]

I sure did. I had terrible heartburn for months. I talked to a nutritionist and they said that to much protein can create stomach acidosis. I even read it can harm the liver. The more I study and research nutrition I realize how over rated it is. Comsuming enough calories and a whole food diet should be enough. When do you see gorillas in nature adding extra protein powder in their diet. I do agree that there are some protein foods like hemp seeds or brown rice protein if it is unaltered and not added with tons of extra stuff it can help a bit. Yeah you need enough to repair human tissue. Yet not at the level that muscle magazines state you need to. These problems occured with mainly whey. I have not had that with hemp seeds or nuts or seeds or even natural foods. Again that is because I consumed them as whole foods. Eat more calories not all at once of course...lol spread out through the day. That should compensate for muscle tears.

[Orson]

Sometimes visiting another country can play havoc with your tummy different food, water etc. can lead to constipation which in your case felt like returning to normal. If your problem has returned i suggest visiting your gp. You could have irritable bowel syndrome or maybe its just an intolerance to something in your diet, either way the doc will help.

[seitan_man]

The question is, how much is too much protein? Would it depend on the sources it came from?

 

I struggle to get more than about 80g a day, so theoretically I should be OK?

[Richard]

I'm Your Man, I think that DV's point was that when animals eat in the wild, they will be eating something which contains amounts of protein, fat and carbohydrate, they won't be just eating 1 of those macronutrients.

 

If there is evidence to the contrary, that humans are not good at digesting combinations of macronutrients, then I'd be interested to read it.

 

But, to me, it seems a bit odd to suggest that we are not good at it, since many foods have a combination of macronutrients in them, and I don't experience difficulty digesting them, and never heard of anyone else experiencing difficulty digesting them

[cubby2112]

Greens and legumes are a great example of a food high in carbs and protein. Soy (though I know many people insist it is bad for you) has a lot of all three macronutrients in its whole form. So do garbanzo beans. Many grains have a significant amount of all three also. If our body could not manage a proper digestive environment for significant amounts of more than one macronutrient at a time, these foods would all be extremely bad for us.

 

Few people are going to claim that greens are disease causing.

 

And if you want to go the animal route, I guarantee you that when gorillas and other great apes are eating their leafies, they eat the nuts found in some of those trees also, which would be at the same time. And then there are the insects consumed on accident and on purpose, even though they are a somewhat trivial (most estimates are at around 5%) of their diets.

[Im Your Man]

I'm Your Man, I think that DV's point was that when animals eat in the wild, they will be eating something which contains amounts of protein, fat and carbohydrate, they won't be just eating 1 of those macronutrients.

 

If there is evidence to the contrary, that humans are not good at digesting combinations of macronutrients, then I'd be interested to read it.

 

But, to me, it seems a bit odd to suggest that we are not good at it, since many foods have a combination of macronutrients in them, and I don't experience difficulty digesting them, and never heard of anyone else experiencing difficulty digesting them

You've never heard about cancers, the first or second cause of death in America ? (I'm not saying there's not many other things that can cause cancers too), and all the people with gas and digestion problems buying pills in hope that it will help their hyperacidity or low acidity and stomach pains, instead of modifying their food habits; while the pharmabusiness is making billions in profits... About the mix of nutrients in a same food, I've already explained it in a previous post,( I think ?) a combination of nutrients in one food is different than a combination of 2 or more different foods together. A food works as a whole and the body has no difficulty to digest it. But it still applies: it takes longer to digest a nut high in fat than a nut relatively low in fat. Anyway, do what you want guys. I myself do many bad combinations, but I don't plan to do this my whole life that's for sure. Edited September 26, 2008 by I'm Your Man

[Im Your Man]

 

And if you want to go the animal route, I guarantee you that when gorillas and other great apes are eating their leafies, they eat the nuts found in some of those trees also

Precisely, animals do combine some foods : greens help the digestions of proteins. It's not like drinking an energy drink while eating a scrambled tofu sandwich

[RawVgn]

Food combining systems are well developed in Natural Hygiene; like "I'm Your Man" says, different macronutrients require different physiological processes for digestion-protein digestion requires an acidic stomach, carb digestion requires amylase which is neutralized by even small amounts of acid. Given the acidic environment needed to digest proteins, it is easy to see how ingestioning huge amounts of protein would cause upset stomach especially if it's being combined with carbs. In order to maintain Ph balance, all that acid also has to be neutralized which creates a lot of buffer waste which overworks the kidneys and eventually toxifies the body. The originator of this thread should test his urine Ph and see if his body is becoming acidified-an early indication of many degenerative diseases. Urine Ph should be at least 6.8 or higher-use high resolution paper to test it as swimming pool type Ph paper will not read accurately to tenths.

 

I wish people would be more civil in here; you can state your position without denigrating others.

[RawVgn]

Richard

 

Go to rawfoodexplained.com and read the sections on food combining; they discuss the differing physiological processes required to digest different macronutrients which drives food combining strategies.

[Im Your Man]

Greens and legumes are a great example of a food high in carbs and protein. Soy (though I know many people insist it is bad for you) has a lot of all three macronutrients in its whole form. So do garbanzo beans. If our body could not manage a proper digestive environment for significant amounts of more than one macronutrient at a time, these foods would all be extremely bad for us.

Noticed that these foods (all beans and soy) you mentioned are precisely the foods that we often hear they are less easy to digest. Even here we see a post almost every week saying : "soy bloating" or "can't digest legumes" or "legumes cause me excess of gas". These foods are also toxic in their natural form. Even grains are not a perfect food for man, they're perfect for some other animals though.

 

 

Many grains have a significant amount of all three also.

All foods are a mix of the 3 nutrients, at different levels. That's the proof we don't need to combine a carb food with a protein food, since there's proteins, carbs and fats already in most foods. It's a natural mix designed by nature and made for proper digestion.

 

RawVgn provided a good link. But for those who are really interested I suggest reading "food combining made easy" by Herbert Shelton or some of his other books like "Superior Nutrition". This guy was way ahead on his time and when I look at modern nutrition and modern medecine I see that even if he's dead and buried he's still ahead on our time.

[cubby2112]

Most vegetables are as high in protein as legumes, many even higher. It is not the mixture of macronutrients that makes legumes harder to digest, it is the oligosaccharides, which are indigestible sugars which can nourish the healthy flora in the human digestive system. Just because something gives you gas doesn't mean it is bad for you. It isn't sure if farting a lot or a little is a sign of good health and it may not actually matter.

 

Here is a quote from Dr. Fuhrman about food combining:

Food combining is based on an incorrect view of digestion and physiology. Not only does it not make sense, but there is no data to support its use. Nutritional science should be science, not religion with belief systems.

 

That said, it can help people control their chronic overeating behavior because it limits their choices.

 

If you beleive the moon is made of cheese, it is your responsibility to come up with the proof, not us to disprove it. The implications is that people should be neurotic about food and make their kids nuts with difficult rules with no justification.

 

Lastly, mixing foods at a meal increase bioavailability and absorbtion of micronutrients (especially fat with greens) and also increases the efficiency of protein absorbtion and amino acid utilization.

 

And something from Jeff Novick:

There is no credible scientific evidence to support the theories on food combining. While the proponents often say it is based on physiology, they theory is actually based on a very limited view and misunderstanding of physiology. Even in one of the classic books on the topic "Food Combining Made Easy" the author, Dr Herbert Shelton said he knew of no physiological reason for most of his rules. I beleive his many reason in putting them forth was to help people make improvements on the typical diet they were eating.

 

In addition, even one of the modern day advocates of it, "Harvey Diamond" who popularized the theory in his Fit For Life books, also said publicly at a NHA conference that he may have over emphasized its importance in the books.

 

One of the reasons food combining seems to work is because when you follow the rules, you have simplified your diet and made a dramatic change in your diet for the better.

 

In regard to digestion, overeating and eating too much fat and eating while under great sress are three things that can impair digestion. Also, as you mentioned each individual may find they have certain food tolerances and sensitivities and if so, they should respect them.

 

I have an old article called The Physiology of Digestion: Is Food Combining Justified" which debunks all the theories on food combining and I am going to update and put on my website sometime soon.

 

The only justifiable reasons I can see for food combining are the inclusion of fats in every meal, since having a little extra fat in it will increase absorption of vitamins A, D, E and K and many other phytonutrients, many which we don't know about. Also, it is helpful to have a few sources of proteins at each meal so your body has a higher chance of being able to pick and choose what amino acids it wants freely. Nothing really relating to digestion.

 

Dr. Fuhrman also brings up a great point about the need for people to disprove things like food combining. Before ideas should be expected to be disproved by people, those espousing the ideas under scrutiny need to give ample evidence supporting their claims. It is like followers of Scientology asserting that if one cannot disprove the existence of thetans, it is perfectly justifiable to believe in them. The problem is, supernatural things can never be disproved because people can say "well, it cannot be detected by any human made instrument because it is beyond our realm of being or understanding." If you want further elaboration on this point, check out this snippet from Carl Sagan:

 

The Dragon in my Garage

[RawVgn]

Why should food combiners carry the burden of proof? Before people say food shouldn't be combined, they should present evidence or links. We provided links to evidence; if you bother to study it,maybe you'll decide you agree with us. Even if you don't, many of us are persuaded by it, and will continue to express our opinions. We certainly understand some peoples opinions differ from ours, but don't expect us to remain silent. Your post does not provide one detailed criticism of Food Combining Theory; it is mere summary opinion. I'm certainly not persuaded by it.

 

Considering the huge quantity of protein he's ingesting, it alone could easily cause discomfort: protein imolecules invariably contain acid forming elements like sulphur and iodine, and they require an acidic stomach to digest. Eating large amounts of protein is a dangerous practice that increases the likelihood of degenerative diseases like arthritis, osteoporosis, kidney stones, and so on. You are advocating a known dangerous activity and providing no evidence to prove it's safe.

Edited September 27, 2008 by RawVgn

[Im Your Man]

it is not the fault of the Hygiene System if science is so ineffective. Everybody knows that science can't prove many things especially in nutrition. If nutrition was a science, there wouldn't be a "scientific" article about a certain food being good and then next week or the day after another "scientific" review saying it is bad. So Furhman don't know what he's talking about when he says "Nutritional science should be science, not religion with belief systems". Natural Hygiene is not a religion, it has cured hundreds of people with fastings and well combined living foods, people that were told by "science" they would die shortly, while hundreds of people are dying in hospitals, serving Jell-O with chicken breasts and milk to patients who can't digest. There are some evidences for the food combining theory : people who have a more sensitive digestion will tell you that if they eat a simple meal following the good food combining rules they will be fine but if they eat pineapple with banana they will squirm on the ground. Those of us who don't feel any difference, that's good, but until when ? Don't forget : "prevent rather than cure".

 

People are sick and they die, they complain of stomach pains, they take a pill to digest and they die of rectum cancer, mouth cancer, intestine cancer, throat cancer, liver cancer, kidney cancer, anus cancer, stomach cancer, etc...

 

Why Dr. Furhman say that ?

" Not only does it not make sense, "

He's the one who don't make any sense. It is making complex mix of foods that don't make sense, since there's absolutly no animal on Earth who combine foods like we do -- except the good combination : greens plus proteins. He's right when he says :

"Lastly, mixing foods at a meal increase bioavailability and absorbtion of micronutrients (especially fat with greens) and also increases the efficiency of protein absorbtion and amino acid utilization."

Greens w/ fat, greens w/ protein, greens w/ fat and carb, it's all good food combining.

 

Anyway, there's no use to debate here. Read the book instead of listening to what people think of these books. Shelton was a brillant man, vegan. I don't know these doctors you quoted... The Hygiene System started way before Shelton, back in 1875 or something like that. The drugs of modern medecine don't do any good.