How to get enough protein

[xjohanx]

that's a pretty pathetic post.

 

No, your post was apathetic post. BW brought up examples, arguments and explained thing. You just made a stupid statement without even going into your thoughts behind it. Get the fuck out.

 

Princess, well spoken as usual.

[chrysalis]

I've been following this thread because I also am interested in competing in an NPC figure show on a vegan diet, or cross over into bodybuilding in a local competition. I think the arguing back and forth has scared the original poster away...I am also a bit scared to post anything, just that I thought originally the question was how to get enough protein to compete in an NPC show, but it's turned into a debate about how much protein an average person needs.

 

Just by my personal experience and self observation, no scientific proof, just anecdotal evidence (and everyone is different, I'm sure some people can make significant gains on minimal protein but I think I'm an ectomorph so it's harder) I was only able to change my body composition only when I increased my protein, and in a relatively short period of about 4 months after 9 years of not much change.

 

Anyway, I would like supportive suggestions on macro nutrient ratios for gaining muscle mass from someone who has competed or has experience with competitors, and what worked for them. I'm a bit fearful posting this that someone's going to jump all over me and tell me I don't need that much protein but I've had people argue with me from both sides: The omni muscle heads telling me I need 2x body weight of animal protein or kiss competing in bodybuilding goodbye as well as vegans who aren't into body building at all telling me I only need 5-10% protein. I was really hoping that coming here to veganbodybuilding, not just a vegan health or vegan lifestye forum but a vegan bodybuilding forum that I would get practical and supportive suggestions about nutrition to become a competitive body builder or figure athlete. I assume there are other competitors out there?

 

I hope some day there will be some vegan IFBB Pro figure or Female bodybuilders. I agree with VP that it would be encourage more competitors to become vegan. There are athletes out there that are interested in veganism but what stops them is the belief that you can't get a competitor level body on plant proteins.

[beforewisdom]

I was only able to change my body composition only when I increased my protein, and in a relatively short period of about 4 months after 9 years of not much change.

 

Put in bold fonts. for emphasis.

 

I'm curious, how much protein per day did you consume and what was your total calorie intake? I wouldn't mind muscling up, but I've been the huge hulking guy. It was fun, but I don't want to do that again. Did you gain lean weight without gaining size?

 

Anyway, I would like supportive suggestions on macro nutrient ratios for gaining muscle mass from someone who has competed or has experience with competitors, and what worked for them.

 

Put in bold fonts for emphais.

 

I'm a bit fearful posting this that someone's going to jump all over me and tell me I don't need that much protein but I've had people argue with me from both sides:

 

Aside from veggieprincess, SeaSiren is also a serious figure competitor. You can PM her for advice here or on veganfitness.net. DV isn't a figure competitor, but she is a serious female vegan hobbyist bodybuilder. She has a medical background. She has also had success in gaining a significant amount of lean weight and changing her body composition.

Edited November 30, 2008 by beforewisdom

[chrysalis]

Wow, the bold face big letters scared me! I'm still new here, how do you put what other people posted into the squares or quotes or whatever?

 

In answer to your qestion of how much protein I ate... well I can already feel the anti-high protein squad ready to jump me... but I went from eating about 40-50 grams for many years which is about 1 gram per kilo body weight for me, as I have been 42-45 kilos for most of my adult life to about 100 grams for about 2 months,(1200-1500 calories) then when I decided to compete I hired a coach/nutritionist. He wasn't vegan but he gave me the macro ratios he gives to his omni competitors and I just created my own vegan menu out of the ratios using vegan food. I consumed 135 to 150 grams of protein on 1500-1800 calories. I went from 23% body fat to 17%, my weight first went up 4 lbs when I increased calories and protein and then I lost 10 lbs when he dropped my calories to 1200 again in the last 5 weeks out. On 1200 calories I was eating 100 grams of protein. I know that I bulked around my shoulders, arms,chest and thighs because I couldn't get into my long sleeved shirts any more, my pants got tight around the thighs and loose around the waist I also Scuba dive and my wetsuit didn't fit around my shoulders and arms any more.

 

I can't hire anyone right now I can't afford it, so I'm trying to figure out how to bulk on my own.

 

So there doesn't seem to be too many female competitors here but are there quite a few men besides Robert that competes? Men seem to be able to eat a massive amount of calories and put on muscle, I tend to gain fat and not muscle if I eat too much.

[chrysalis]

Wow, the bold face big letters scared me! I'm still new here, how do you put what other people posted into the squares or quotes or whatever?

 

In answer to your question of how much protein I ate... well I can already feel the anti-high protein squad ready to jump me... but I went from eating about 40-50 grams for many years which is about 1 gram per kilo body weight for me, as I have been 42-45 kilos for most of my adult life to about 100 grams for about 2 months,(1200-1500 calories) then when I decided to compete I hired a coach/nutritionist. He wasn't vegan but he gave me the macro ratios he gives to his omni competitors and I just created my own vegan menu out of the ratios using vegan food. I consumed 135 to 150 grams of protein on 1500-1800 calories. I went from 23% body fat to 17%, my weight first went up 4 lbs when I increased calories and protein and then I lost 10 lbs when he dropped my calories to 1200 again in the last 5 weeks out. On 1200 calories I was eating 100 grams of protein. I know that I bulked around my shoulders, arms,chest and thighs because I couldn't get into my long sleeved shirts any more, my pants got tight around the thighs and loose around the waist I also Scuba dive and my wetsuit didn't fit around my shoulders and arms any more.

 

I can't hire anyone right now I can't afford it, so I'm trying to figure out how to bulk on my own.

 

So there doesn't seem to be too many female competitors here but are there quite a few men besides Robert that competes? Men seem to be able to eat a massive amount of calories and put on muscle, I tend to gain fat and not muscle if I eat too much.

[beforewisdom]

Wow, the bold face big letters scared me! I'm still new here, how do you put what other people posted into the squares or quotes or whatever?

 

Highlight the text you are interested in, then

- press the "B" button to bold it

- press one of the colors in the palette on the right to change the color

- pick a new font size in the drop down menu on top of the message box

 

You probably already got this, but I didn't mean to drag you into a fight. I made your quotes more visible because they are a vital, central points that I wanted people to see.

 

In answer to your question of how much protein I ate... well I can already feel the anti-high protein squad ready to jump me... but I went from eating about 40-50 grams for many years which is about 1 gram per kilo body weight for me, as I have been 42-45 kilos for most of my adult life to about 100 grams for about 2 months,(1200-1500 calories) then when I decided to compete I hired a coach/nutritionist. He wasn't vegan but he gave me the macro ratios he gives to his omni competitors and I just created my own vegan menu out of the ratios using vegan food. I consumed 135 to 150 grams of protein on 1500-1800 calories. I went from 23% body fat to 17%, my weight first went up 4 lbs when I increased calories and protein and then I lost 10 lbs when he dropped my calories to 1200 again in the last 5 weeks out. On 1200 calories I was eating 100 grams of protein. I know that I bulked around my shoulders, arms,chest and thighs because I couldn't get into my long sleeved shirts any more, my pants got tight around the thighs and loose around the waist I also Scuba dive and my wetsuit didn't fit around my shoulders and arms any more.

 

A forum member here, DV, had a similar experience with her clothing when she put on muscle. Women's clothing isn't cut for athletic women. Same is true for men's clothing. Years ago when I was heavily into weight lifting, if I bought a shirt that fit my neck and shoulders I would have an enormous amount of spare cloth around the abdomen. The assumption being that any man that big was likely to be fat, not muscular. A cool tailor clued me into to specially cut shirts.

 

It sounds like you are already on the right track. Needs are needs are needs. Omni or vegan, your protein needs for competition are going to be the same. You had a professional trainer tell you how much you needed to get and you already figured out how to meet those needs as a vegan. I'm guessing you want the community of similar women. LIke I wrote we have 3 women here with interests similar to yourself, who you can PM. veggieprincess, DV, and SeaSiren.

.

So there doesn't seem to be too many female competitors here but are there quite a few men besides Robert that competes? Men seem to be able to eat a massive amount of calories and put on muscle, I tend to gain fat and not muscle if I eat too much.

 

Not to many competitors. A few weight lifting enthusiasts. Many more fitness enthusiasts and many, many, many more "alternative health" enthusiasts.

 

PM the women I mentioned, they all have good things to say

 

BTW, men put on fat too!. LOL! I love it how women think men have carte blanch to eat like they have a tapeworm without consequences

 

I've always had a "fuel efficient" metabolism. FWIW.

[Couture547]

If in fact as a Vegan you must comsume processed isolated protein powers to gain muscle then that would mean the Vegan diet isn't ideal for strength/ athletics and will allways for short of a omni diet and it's flawed.

 

So anyone who consumes protein powders is "just like and Omni" in your world, huh? That's just lovely.

 

If your eatting 4000 calories a day and 20 percent from protein that comes out to 200 grams a day. What girl needs more then that?

 

No figure competitor could consume 4000 calories for comp prep. They would need to roll her onto the stage because she would gain so much fat. Same with 3000 and most would even gain too much fat on 2000 or 2500. What you are suggesting is too many calories to get a cut, muscular look for most figure competitors. I would look like a Sumo wrestler on 3000 or 4000 calories.

 

A diet only needs 10-20 percent protein to be a healthy body building diet.

 

As I said before, she wasn’t asking you to evaluate her diet for “healthiness”. She was asking about Vegan sources that are high in protein and about a diet for an NPC show.

 

 

It's impossible to get more then 25 percent protein on a healthy diet.

What are you basing this statement on? My diet is anywhere between 28 and 35% protein and I've plugged it into several dietary software programs and I am OFF THE CHARTS in every single recommended Vitamin and Mineral and then some. I supplement with calcium, drink a ton of water and I'm one of the healthiest people I know.

 

Those girls are most likely on some sort of drugs or at least legal test boosters of some sort. Girls start developing hormonal issues when they drop below around 13 percent bf and by the looks of it there around 5. There's some thing going on when a girl is bigger then most the big lean guys on here. basically alot of people on here buy into alot of the main stream/ meat/ supplement propaganda saying you need massive amount of protein or your diet should be 20/50/30.

 

Ugh... yes, some figure girls take illegal drugs to acheive their look AND SOME DON'T. There are many natural competitors that would never think of taking anything. They would be the first to tell you they have a harder road because they refuse to take anything, but they wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I can't help but shake my head at how negative you are about the sport. If a Vegan were to become an IFBB Figure Pro, do you have any idea how many people she would inspire to try out a Vegan lifestyle? Yet, you almost sound like the idea of someone having this dream offends you. It astounds me.

 

And you're "guess" of 5% for a figure competitor is incorrect. They diet down to anywhere between 9 and 15% but that is for a very short period of time and right before the show. They do not stay at this level.

 

 

What i'm saying at the top there is that if one thinks you need to supplement a vegan diet with protein just to get strong wouldn't that mean a vegan diet is inferior for proformance? You can be a monster on a omni diet without any supplements what so ever and i beilve you can get those results or better on a good vegan program.

 

As far as the calories go that's why i've said numerious times that it depends on the person and what the person's goals are, but 20 percent protein is enough for any athlete. If your cutting hard for a competetion your not going to gain much mass anyways no matter how hard you train or how much protein you get. If one of those girls went on a extreme cut to get BF down with a 1,500 calorie diet then they'd still get 75 grams of protein a day.

 

And your right about if a vegan were to be a top bb it would attract many new people to veganism which is great. Just think if Michael Phelps was a good rolemodel and was eatting a good diet how many people would be inspired to switch. Instead he just justifies people's poor eatting habits

[DV]

Chrysalis, don't be scared away! We need more female bodybuilders on this forum. I just found out you are in your 40s (I'm 43 next month). I think older women (omni or not) may have more need for certain supplements. Gaia is also a bodybuilder, shorter than me and in her 40s. She is very good about answering emails. I've gained about 20 total pounds this past year in muscle, but had to put up with fat gain at times as well. I think that once you've competed and been relatively cut, it's difficult to deal with any fat gain - even though you may need some in order to put on muscle.

 

I'm in a cutting phase right now and will be experimenting with a few supplements to boost metabolism. I will be happy to share anything with you via pm.

 

Don't be too intimidated by the low-protein, anti-protein powder crowd here. None of them are bodybuilders and they don't understand that the process of building a phenomenal physique just might be possible by their methods but has been shown to be attainable by more conventional methods thousands of times over. I don't know if you're a new vegan but if so just be prepared for the "alternative" view in everything. Veganism is an extremely alternative lifestyle and it definitely attracts those who take everything to an alternative extreme (not that it's all bad, just saying).

 

I'm looking forward to more of your posts and gains!!

 

 

And to those of you who are keeping it real here (you know who you are), thanks!!!!

[Couture547]

Chrysalis, don't be scared away! We need more female bodybuilders on this forum. I just found out you are in your 40s (I'm 43 next month). I think older women (omni or not) may have more need for certain supplements. Gaia is also a bodybuilder, shorter than me and in her 40s. She is very good about answering emails. I've gained about 20 total pounds this past year in muscle, but had to put up with fat gain at times as well. I think that once you've competed and been relatively cut, it's difficult to deal with any fat gain - even though you may need some in order to put on muscle.

 

I'm in a cutting phase right now and will be experimenting with a few supplements to boost metabolism. I will be happy to share anything with you via pm.

 

Don't be too intimidated by the low-protein, anti-protein powder crowd here. None of them are bodybuilders and they don't understand that the process of building a phenomenal physique just might be possible by their methods but has been shown to be attainable by more conventional methods thousands of times over. I don't know if you're a new vegan but if so just be prepared for the "alternative" view in everything. Veganism is an extremely alternative lifestyle and it definitely attracts those who take everything to an alternative extreme (not that it's all bad, just saying).

 

I'm looking forward to more of your posts and gains!!

 

 

And to those of you who are keeping it real here (you know who you are), thanks!!!!

 

 

It's just about impossible for any man let alone a 40 year old woman to gain 20 pounds of actual muscle in a year without drugs. Even men on Steroids that's a very big feat, but probably doable. you probably gained a little fat along with alot of water and some muscle. Depending on the supplements your taking that can add alot of fake muscle like creatine for example. You can gain 10 pounds over night in your muscles( i've done this in the past) and think that you all of sudden you have more muscle when in fact it's just extra water weight.

 

I haven't read every post on this thread, but i haven't seen anyone say that protein is not important or to do any extremely low protein diets so i don't know who's posts your refering to. I said that 20 percent protein is more then enough for anyone assuming your getting that from real foods and not processed soy or protein powders and your calorie needs are met. http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bio_avi

If he can get by on 20 percent protein do you really think a girl needs more? I get 15-20 percent protein without supplements and getting better gains then ever before becasue i'm eatting real foods. I'd go out on the lim and say i'm stronger then any of those girls

[veggieprincess]

needs are needs. Omni or vegan, your protein needs for competition are going to be the same.

 

This has been the most true statement said on this entire thread, and if anything... it is the one thing that I wish people would take away from this...

 

very, very well said.

 

No need to reinvent the wheel here people...... we are VEGANS... not gurus... not all-knowing all powerful gods that know better than the omni community.... I think we are better in the sense that we have more of a social consience and are more compassionate toward the animals and the planet... but WE HAVE STUFF TO LEARN FROM THEM!!!!!! Vegans will not be taken seriously until they embrace this... You want to be a contender? You want to be world class? Then learn from the omnis... take their methods and formulas... and adapt it to our lifestyle.... that is the intelligent, enlightened thing to do.

 

'nuff said

[beforewisdom]

It's just about impossible for any man let alone a 40 year old woman to gain 20 pounds of actual muscle in a year without drugs.

 

Bodybuilders and weighlifters have been doing that since the early 60s.

 

For anyone new to this board reading this thread, let me put Couture547's credibility into perspective. I have no intention of insulting him, but honestly I can't think of a way around it and make this point at the same time. Couture547, I'm sorry if it still means anything to you.

 

Couture547 told me the other day on this forum that raw food diets should be optimal for people since all of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets.

 

Anyone who has ever taken care of pets, watched nature shows or even had a high school biology class knows that different animals are different internally, have different capacities and different needs.

 

Couture547 may never have been responsible for the welfare of an animal, but he has likely been in the school system and had a biology class. In other words he gives advice based on what he wants to believe and not on what is known

[DV]

Woohoo!!!! I have finally done the impossible!!!

[Couture547]

It's just about impossible for any man let alone a 40 year old woman to gain 20 pounds of actual muscle in a year without drugs.

 

Bodybuilders and weighlifters have been doing that since the early 60s.

 

For anyone new to this board reading this thread, let me put Couture547's credibility into perspective. I have no intention of insulting him, but honestly I can't think of a way around it and make this point at the same time. Couture547, I'm sorry if it still means anything to you.

 

Couture547 told me the other day on this forum that raw food diets should be optimal for people since all of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets.

 

Anyone who has ever taken care of pets, watched nature shows or even had a high school biology class knows that different animals are different internally, have different capacities and different needs.

 

Couture547 may never have been responsible for the welfare of an animal, but he has likely been in the school system and had a biology class. In other words he gives advice based on what he wants to believe and not on what is known

 

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means.

 

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

[beforewisdom]

 

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility?

 

 

 

Dude, I am ed by trying to reason with you. I only posted what I did to show newcomers what your mentality is like so they can avoid wasting their time reading what you have to say. Many people can be really narrow minded and foolish in one area of their lives, while being competent in others. I hope for your sake the mentality you have wit raw foodism is isolated to raw foodism.

[sydneyvegan]

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means.

 

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

 

I did.

From September 2001 to September 2002 I put on 20kgs (44lbs) of Muscle (84kgs to 104kgs).

It was a couple of months after going vegan.

No drugs, just plenty of good food and plenty of protein.

I have maintained that muscle ever since

[blabbate]

Couture547 told me the other day on this forum that raw food diets should be optimal for people since all of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets.

 

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means.

It sounds to me like his issue is with your (non-)support for the argument. "All of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets" is immaterial. The eagle is the strongest bird, but I won't be able to fly if I mimic their diet of raw fish, because we are hugely biologically different. And while the rhino beetle is the strongest animal by body size, I doubt we'd get far on a diet of rotten wood. Also, many of the strongest animals live off of raw meat. Eagles, lions, tigers, bears, etc. But I doubt you'd recommend we switch to a raw meat diet.

 

Remember, you can't say that cooked food is bad for us any more than we can say that a raw diet is bad for us.

 

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

So you just think DV is lying?

[Couture547]

Couture547 told me the other day on this forum that raw food diets should be optimal for people since all of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets.

 

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means.

It sounds to me like his issue is with your (non-)support for the argument. "All of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets" is immaterial. The eagle is the strongest bird, but I won't be able to fly if I mimic their diet of raw fish, because we are hugely biologically different. And while the rhino beetle is the strongest animal by body size, I doubt we'd get far on a diet of rotten wood. Also, many of the strongest animals live off of raw meat. Eagles, lions, tigers, bears, etc. But I doubt you'd recommend we switch to a raw meat diet.

 

Remember, you can't say that cooked food is bad for us any more than we can say that a raw diet is bad for us.

 

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

So you just think DV is lying?

 

 

Since when has this thread been a cooked vs. raw thread? This is about protein which is so easy to get on a cooked vegan diet without supplements it crazy. I don't think she's lying, but i know that she didn't put on 20 pounds of only muscle in a 1 year period unless in fact she had that muscle at one point and then lost it all then got it back with muscle memory.

[Couture547]

 

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility?

 

 

 

Dude, I am ed by trying to reason with you. I only posted what I did to show newcomers what your mentality is like so they can avoid wasting their time reading what you have to say. Many people can be really narrow minded and foolish in one area of their lives, while being competent in others. I hope for your sake the mentality you have wit raw foodism is isolated to raw foodism.

 

 

I'm not even a raw foodist any more, but was for around 2 years. In the other thread i was defending raw food saying you can get strong on raw food if your doing in right. The people that are falling apart on raw food and built like pixy sticks are doing some things wrong. Alot of people look like shit on SAD, Veganism, Raw foodist it doesn't matter. It's only when it's a so called extreme diet that one blames the diet. Is raw food diet superior to cooked? Who knows. What i do know that is too do a raw food diet correctly you must have a very large budget, some thing i don't have right now.

[blabbate]

Since when has this thread been a cooked vs. raw thread? This is about protein which is so easy to get on a cooked vegan diet without supplements it crazy. I don't think she's lying, but i know that she didn't put on 20 pounds of only muscle in a 1 year period unless in fact she had that muscle at one point and then lost it all then got it back with muscle memory.

Heh, this has been a cooked vs raw thread for a while now. Anyway, I was responding to your question about losing your credibility and explaining why beforewisdom thought your statement was foolish.

 

And frankly, when you're advising someone about how much protein to consume, statements like the one bw quoted might be relevant. As long as you're willing to stand behind them and back them up, I don't see why there should be an issue.

[Couture547]

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means.

 

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

 

I did.

From September 2001 to September 2002 I put on 20kgs (44lbs) of Muscle (84kgs to 104kgs).

It was a couple of months after going vegan.

No drugs, just plenty of good food and plenty of protein.

I have maintained that muscle ever since

 

IF that's the case which i'll just pretend you really did that then why don't we have alot of natural Arnolds here? There's not a natural bb ever to have the body of Arnold. Arnolds Lean body mass in his prime was around 225 and that's with drugs. alot of which is the skelaton, organs, blood, water and other stuff. 44 LBS of lean mass would be like a third or less of the total muscle a juiced arnold had after all those years of lifting, drugs and all that. Doesn't sounds likely does it?

[DV]

It sounds to me like his issue is with your (non-)support for the argument. "All of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets" is immaterial. The eagle is the strongest bird, but I won't be able to fly if I mimic their diet of raw fish, because we are hugely biologically different. And while the rhino beetle is the strongest animal by body size, I doubt we'd get far on a diet of rotten wood. Also, many of the strongest animals live off of raw meat. Eagles, lions, tigers, bears, etc. But I doubt you'd recommend we switch to a raw meat diet.

 

Remember, you can't say that cooked food is bad for us any more than we can say that a raw diet is bad for us.

 

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

So you just think DV is lying?

 

 

Since when has this thread been a cooked vs. raw thread? This is about protein which is so easy to get on a cooked vegan diet without supplements it crazy. I don't think she's lying, but i know that she didn't put on 20 pounds of only muscle in a 1 year period unless in fact she had that muscle at one point and then lost it all then got it back with muscle memory.

 

You don't know anything about me. You've never met me before or after I started lifting. I have used a few personal trainers over the past year and have had my body composition tested often. I've never been muscular until recently so there is no "muscle memory." In addition to the muscle gain, I've also lost over 10 lbs of fat. If you know anything about bulking and cutting then you could understand this. Keep in mind that I'm 5'10" and 162 lbs at my peak weight. I was also consuming over 3,000 calories - as a woman - and could not put on weight once I reached 162 lbs, without any cardio. That's my body.

[Couture547]

Since when has this thread been a cooked vs. raw thread? This is about protein which is so easy to get on a cooked vegan diet without supplements it crazy. I don't think she's lying, but i know that she didn't put on 20 pounds of only muscle in a 1 year period unless in fact she had that muscle at one point and then lost it all then got it back with muscle memory.

Heh, this has been a cooked vs raw thread for a while now. Anyway, I was responding to your question about losing your credibility and explaining why beforewisdom thought your statement was foolish.

 

And frankly, when you're advising someone about how much protein to consume, statements like the one bw quoted might be relevant. As long as you're willing to stand behind them and back them up, I don't see why there should be an issue.

 

And i've all ready shown that you can get more then enough protein on a cooked vegan diet without supplement. A diet of 20 percent protein works for anyonw. 8K calories= 400 grams of protein, 4K calories= 200 grams of protein, 2K calories= 100 grams of protein. 1,500 calories= 75 grams of protein. Any thing less then that for anyone and your just starving yourself and not building mass on matter how much protein.

 

Even Omni guys will say that the most the body could ever use at one time is around 40 grams of protein and that's a absolute max. Any thing more then that and your wasting your time. Just think if your eatting 20 percent protein you fall right where you need to be. Not to little and not too much, but just right

[blabbate]

And i've all ready shown that you can get more then enough protein on a cooked vegan diet without supplement. A diet of 20 percent protein works for anyonw. 8K calories= 400 grams of protein, 4K calories= 200 grams of protein, 2K calories= 100 grams of protein. 1,500 calories= 75 grams of protein. Any thing less then that for anyone and your just starving yourself and not building mass on matter how much protein.

 

Even Omni guys will say that the most the body could ever use at one time is around 40 grams of protein and that's a absolute max. Any thing more then that and your wasting your time. Just think if your eatting 20 percent protein you fall right where you need to be. Not to little and not too much, but just right

Except that you have several people in this thread for whom 20% protein was not enough. They tried it. It didn't work. They upped their protein intake and started gaining mass. That's not to say that everyone is going to have the same experience, and it's just anecdotal evidence, but any evidence at all is enough to bust your unsubstantiated claim that 20% is enough for "anyone."

 

Once again, I'm simply arguing against blanket statements. It seems foolish to me to say "x is always true" when you can just click back a page or two and read multiple people posting "I personally tried x and it did not work for me."

[FormicaLinoleum]

And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

DV did not say she put on 20 lbs of muscle but no fat or water. She specifically said that she did put on some fat along with the muscle:

 

I've gained about 20 total pounds this past year in muscle, but had to put up with fat gain at times as well. I think that once you've competed and been relatively cut, it's difficult to deal with any fat gain - even though you may need some in order to put on muscle.

[Couture547]

She said 20 pounds of muscle, so that can mean more then 20 total with water and fat, but still at least 20 in muscle. If one gains 20 pounds and half of it is muscle then you gained 10 pounds of muscle