how about honey?

[VNessWink]

i just picked up some whole food bars the other day...ugh i can't remember what they were called but one was considered "vegan" the other "original"...i read the ingredients and noticed the difference was the vegan used agave nectar for sweetening and the original used honey...why would this alter someone from vegan to an animal byproduct consumer? are there pieces of bees in honey? are the bees treated poorly?...i'm an animal lover of all sorts (except roaches brrr eww!) i know it's silly but i'm really curious...thanks

Edited December 12, 2008 by V*NessWink

[FormicaLinoleum]

Honey is an animal product. Vegans don't eat/use animal products.

[VNessWink]

but i love honey...i prefer the taste of it over agave nectar...are there any other alternatives?

[GinaKina]

Bees are being kept against their will and raised for honey..it is an industry just like anything else.

 

Have you tried dark agave nectar? Some recipes can also use maple syrup instead. What is it that you are using honey for that you are going to miss it so badly? I do find it a little harder to avoid it in processed things (I still do, but it is annoying to find things that would be vegan except for bee products), but honey is definitely not vegan. It is actually similar to the reason vegans don't eat dairy (in my opinion at least). We make cow mommies pregnant so they will make milk for cow babies. We then steal the milk from the cows. Bees make honey for their own food source. No, we aren't forcing them to get pregnant, but we are forcing them into an unnatural environment, and stealing their food, so they are continually working overtime to make enough honey to feed themselves. Plus, plenty of bees are killed in the process like every other animal.

 

Personally, it took me awhile to "get" the honey thing. Meat came first, eggs second, then dairy, but I couldn't shake the honey. I didn't eat pure honey, but if it was in something I didn't sweat it too much. It only took educating myself to really understand it and have the desire to avoid it.

 

Maybe this will help: http://www.vegansociety.com/animals/exploitation/bees.php

Personally, I need to read/hear something myself, not read it from another person for it to really hit me hard.

[vivalasvegans]

Most industrial honey farming operations kill the bees when it's time to gather the honey.

 

Many smaller mom and pop kind of farms have their own bees on site to make sure the crops get pollinated. Some people feel like eating some honey that came from these kind of bees, thoughtfully harvested without killing them, can be included within their vegan code of ethics.

 

Most prepackaged food with honey won't include that kind though...

[LocalBrada]

are the bees treated poorly?...i'm an animal lover of all sorts (except roaches brrr eww!) i know it's silly but i'm really curious...thanks

 

Just chiming in, yes bees are treated poorly as the previous posters have stated. Also I am quite sure that roaches have been tested on by our govt. Lets not discount them, just because we are told by the media that they are pests. I am sure if roaches produced something that was consumable that they would be regularly exploited as well.

 

Another thing and don't take this as a personal attack, but just because "you love honey" doesn't excuse the manner in which the product is placed on your plate. Same with diamonds...

[Richard]

but i love honey...i prefer the taste of it over agave nectar...are there any other alternatives?

 

How about syrup?

[offense74]

Why are pesticides used and why are vegans eating stuff that has been grown with them?

I sometimes find it hard to understand the logic in the decisions vegans make. To me it would be reasonable that if you don't eat honey, you don't eat food with pesticides on them. Same thing goes for hunting. Pesticides are made to kill animals, millions of them in just one sprayed field. That's probably more animals dead than all the hunters on this world combined in one lifetime.

I'm definitely a speciesist so I don't have a problem with these things but I would probably like to hear an explanation from someone who is a anti-speciesist.

[robert]

Why are pesticides used and why are vegans eating stuff that has been grown with them?

I sometimes find it hard to understand the logic in the decisions vegans make. To me it would be reasonable that if you don't eat honey, you don't eat food with pesticides on them. Same thing goes for hunting. Pesticides are made to kill animals, millions of them in just one sprayed field. That's probably more animals dead than all the hunters on this world combined in one lifetime.

I'm definitely a speciesist so I don't have a problem with these things but I would probably like to hear an explanation from someone who is a anti-speciesist.

 

I don't have anything to ad to this topic at the moment and this subject has come up twice during my last 3 talks, but I do want to say that you, Offense, have one of my favorite minds on the forum. I've always thought that and don't say it enough.

[hilary wright]

Why are pesticides used and why are vegans eating stuff that has been grown with them?

I sometimes find it hard to understand the logic in the decisions vegans make. To me it would be reasonable that if you don't eat honey, you don't eat food with pesticides on them. Same thing goes for hunting. Pesticides are made to kill animals, millions of them in just one sprayed field. That's probably more animals dead than all the hunters on this world combined in one lifetime.

I'm definitely a speciesist so I don't have a problem with these things but I would probably like to hear an explanation from someone who is a anti-speciesist.

 

I don't have anything to ad to this topic at the moment and this subject has come up twice during my last 3 talks, but I do want to say that you, Offense, have one of my favorite minds on the forum. I've always thought that and don't say it enough.

 

+10

[RAINRA]

GO organic and No to honey.

 

I like think veganism sometimes is when one must do what he can to not harm not just animals but also respecting your environment altogether ... Somethings are possible, some are beyond your control directly because society is at fault and living in a house displaces animals so we could say we are all not vegan.We all do what we can putting animals in the for front and other beings. I think of this if you are stuck with the option of organic or pesticide filled vegy if your poor or you need to eat, and you could not afford the organic and / or if organic is not available then I think you must do what you can to survive but if you have the luxury of choice then you have to act responsibly and to do what you can to spare beings and respect your environment. Since most of us here in North America have that option and in Europe as well and other modern societies we can make a choice and we can choose to be kind and respectful. So bees make honey for their own reasons not so that people can come and exploit their work for our food. Do what you can 100 % of the time when you have the choice. When faced with a situation that you cannot control then you must do what you have to do. When there is choice do the compassion thing and give respect. If it is a being I avoid using anything from it no exceptions with time I will improve this way of living.

[Aaron]

Pesticides protect our food against pests. Self-defense...

 

Maybe?

 

-a

[offense74]

Why are pesticides used and why are vegans eating stuff that has been grown with them?

I sometimes find it hard to understand the logic in the decisions vegans make. To me it would be reasonable that if you don't eat honey, you don't eat food with pesticides on them. Same thing goes for hunting. Pesticides are made to kill animals, millions of them in just one sprayed field. That's probably more animals dead than all the hunters on this world combined in one lifetime.

I'm definitely a speciesist so I don't have a problem with these things but I would probably like to hear an explanation from someone who is a anti-speciesist.

 

I don't have anything to ad to this topic at the moment and this subject has come up twice during my last 3 talks, but I do want to say that you, Offense, have one of my favorite minds on the forum. I've always thought that and don't say it enough.

 

+10

Thanks, it means alot coming from you guys!

[xjohanx]

Good points by offense and by Aaron. I just want to point out that offenses comments doesn't justify the use of honey, at least not to me. It should just make us more consious. Two wrongs do not make right.

[offense74]

What I'm asking is: If your only choice for compassion is to not eat or wear animals, will that necessarily minimize the harm to animals? I know many vegans has realized that it's not that simple, however some of the most outspoken have not. I really don't like the word anti-speciecism.... I don't know....

 

Also, how do you treat a bee right? I understand that a live bee is better than a dead one but if the bees don't get killed then who's to decide?

 

I'm not defending eating honey and I agree with xjohanx. I'm just asking questions.

[robert]

and asking doesn't get done enough. Everyone has this or that to say without often knowing why they are saying it with sometimes little meaning behind it.

 

Asking questions gets the mind to start working and that is something that certainly doesn't happen often enough.

 

Good perspectives. It is time to start thinking differently and independently and I like seeing that going on in more and more places.

[DrNatural]

Wow. I think that this post is going to put me out of agreement with alot of people here, so let me preface this posting by saying that we are all on the same side - good health without cruelty.

 

I am a vegan with 4 beehives. I have enormous caring for my bees and I use topbar beehives which are very pleasing to my bees. I don't have a bunch of weird clothes since I conform to their nature. My hives each have about 10,000 bees and although I wear a veil to tidy up their hives and collect their honey, I wear regular clothes otherwise and I don't even wear gloves. I reach in with my bare hands and I don't get stung. If they wanted to, they could sting me to death. The bees have 12 bars that they keep as their own and everything else is for me. I make a good home for them and they are friendly towards me. I get about a gallon of honey from each hive. There isn't a thing that we do together which is cruel. The relationship between a beekeeper and his or her hives is sacred, and when a beekeeper dies somebody has to go out to the hives and tell them. The bees know. Then, the hives are draped in black for a week. I know this sounds crazy but it's what we beekeepers do. It's what we have worked out with the bees. We give them a good home and they give us medicine.

 

And really, honey is medicine. It's what veganism is really about: harmony with nature. You apply honey to a wound and it gets better without antibiotic cream. You eat honey and you don't get hayfever. You make candles out of their wax and it lights your winter nights and smells sweet of honey.

 

If you are urbane, well, I suppose there is reason to be wary of factory produced honey. But right there in your farmer's market are people like me offering medicine we harvest from creatures we cherish and defend. You'd better start searching the internet for information about agave nectar. It's not nearly so organic as you night think, and not medicinal in the least. You want to slice open a maple tree and drain it of its sap? How do you differentiate your heirarchy of cruelty?

 

And this whole business of Colony Collapse Syndrome? The disappearance of bees? We natural beekeepers aren't having much of a problem with it compared to factory honey farmers. In fact, it seems to be up to us vegans to start keeping beehives humanely. As a vegan, every single bite of food you eat is brought to you by bees. For omnivores, of every 3 bites of food they eat, 2 are brought by bees.

 

This whole vegan thing (for me) is about bringing me closer to nature, not further away. The whole aversion to honey in the vegan community is purely a political and philosophical argument, not health based. That's crazy. There is nobody who can speak negatively about the health benefits of honey. I wouldn't buy honey from a factory farm any more than I'd eat flesh or drink milk. But for goodness sake, don't walk past your local beekeeper at the farmer's market thinking he's cruel. He might just be this omniverous guy who is closer to nature than even you as a vegan.

[hilary wright]

Funny, I was going to pose a hypothetical question concerning the use of raw, wild honey . . . honestly, in this case, I see it as a cooperative relationship. It certainly is not a matter of stealing their food of forcing them to work for you, but a mutual sharing of work and rewards. I, personally, have no problem with this arrangement and am glad your are taking care of your bee friends.

[Vegan Joe]

Say? why/what do you think those bees make all that extra honey for?

[DrNatural]

Because I enslaved them in a grotesque bee penitentiary and any bee who doesn't produce honey gets beaten with a whip. There. Everybody happy?

 

Look, all I am saying is that there are ways to interact with the natural world which don't exploit it, keeping bees for example. So is forest conservation. So is organic farming.

 

Oh, and one more thing - I may have over emphasized the differences between my beekeeping style and mass produced honey. The fact is no beekeeper deliberately kills his bees to harvest honey. Quite the contrary. The reason I don't like mass produced honey is that a) I don't like the Langstrom hives where the cell-size is predetermined by a plastic base versus allowing them to create their own cells, b) they often use chemical pesticides to rid the hive of mites, and c) the honey is often cooked ("pasteurized") before it is sold.

 

Finally, let me say in the friendliest way, if you feel that strongly about exploiting bees that you want to deprive yourself of this wonderful food and medicine, well, that's up to you. But you might want to go outside, lift up the hood of your car, and count the insects murdered in your radiator. Go that many months without riding in a motorized vehicle too. Talk about changing the world for the better! You'd have lots more impact on the earth than abstaining from honey.

[hilary wright]

Joe, perhaps we can agree to disagree . . . I really have heard all of these arguments against honey for years. When I first started my V journey in 1980, many vegans used honey without a second thought. Please read carefully and note that I said many, not all. Now it has become an animal product. I have also had "you are exploiting the poor vegtables" screamed in my face for harvesting from my own garden. Anyway, just a short history on the formation of my views. I, personally, would never use pasturized or commercially mass produced honey. Actually, I don't use honey at all, as I don't care for it. In Dr. Natural's case, I have no problem with its' use as a food or medicine. I realize that hardcore purest disagree, but to me, it seems an organic cooperation between man and his environment. To me, the most important issue is that beings aren't raised to be slaughtered. Whether or not they are being exploited is philosophical.

[vivalasvegans]

Dr Natural, You are making some pretty important points. There are some serious problems with organic agriculture, as well as driving, from animal rights as well as human rights perspectives.

 

All we can do is come to terms with our own individual code of ethics that we are each personally comfortable with.

 

One issue with doing that is, so many individuals in the industrialized and post industrial world are so numb to things like compassion, and we tend to be so disconnected from the realities of where our food, fossil fuel, and mass produced crap comes from, that there has to be a whole lot of consciousness raising around all those issues.

To me, the most important issue is that beings aren't raised to be slaughtered.

I love this statement.

 

Eh I would type more but I got to go to work

[DrNatural]

Thanks, guys. For me, being a vegan leads me into a closer relationship with animals and the environment not further away. For example, not to stir the pot or anything, but I have 40 chickens too. I haven't gotten any eggs yet but when I do they will go to the foodbank for the poor. (I sort of got these chickens as "gift" from a local farmer who couldn't keep them anymore). I could trick them into laying eggs by installing lights in their henhouse, but I don't. They come and go as they please but at night when they roost I lock the coyotes and foxes out of their house. In the morning I bring fresh water and food and let them out. And you know something? When I go out there in the morning they run to see me - not for food - to see me. They fly up on the tree I have for them and I pet each one under the wings. They love that.

 

And I have these 3 dogs. I feed them raw meat. It's what is best for them. It's kind of gross but I love them so I have to do it. They protect me from the bears. That's their job and they know it and the love to do it. Am I exploiting any creature here? From my vegan point of view, we live together in harmony each having our role.

[FormicaLinoleum]

A lot of different points have been made. Here are my perhaps random thoughts about them.

 

I personally agree with the classification of honey as non-vegan. It's an animal product. I find it a little weird to hear discussions about whether honey is vegan if the bees are treated well. Are eggs vegan if the hens are treated well? Is dairy vegan if the cows are treated well? I thought the general idea is that the treatment of the animal doesn't matter--animal products aren't vegan, period. Personally, I am against the use of animals for one's own gain, and to me that's a pretty good guide for why animal products are not acceptable.

 

If one has bees for honey, then that's using animals for one's own gain. If one is concerned about the decline of honey bees, one could get beehives and set up or encourage colonies, then simply leave them be. Let them keep their honey. Why take it from them?

 

As for honey being OK because we kill bugs when we drive, that's the kind of excuse that omnis love to use. "What's the point of being vegan when you kill bugs when you walk and animals are killed when plants are harvested? We will always accidentally kill animals, so why bother doing anything?" The point is to cut out the things that you can. Avoid all the animal products that you reasonably can. Yeah, you'll never be able to stop contributing to harm of animals completely unless you live in a cave or kill yourself. But you can do the best you can. And we can stop using honey--it's pretty easy.

[Vegan Joe]

Say? why/what do you think those bees make all that extra honey for?

I asked this question without malice, and had hoped to learn something more about bees.

But as I read what you wrote, I couldn't help but think that you are condeming others and there actions to justify your actions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm just calling it as I think I see it.

I'm still not being judgemental at this point.

Raw meat does have me thinking though.

 

Anyone know the answer to my bee and honey quantity question?

 

 

 

Because I enslaved them in a grotesque bee penitentiary and any bee who doesn't produce honey gets beaten with a whip. There. Everybody happy?

 

Look, all I am saying is that there are ways to interact with the natural world which don't exploit it, keeping bees for example. So is forest conservation. So is organic farming.

 

Oh, and one more thing - I may have over emphasized the differences between my beekeeping style and mass produced honey. The fact is no beekeeper deliberately kills his bees to harvest honey. Quite the contrary. The reason I don't like mass produced honey is that a) I don't like the Langstrom hives where the cell-size is predetermined by a plastic base versus allowing them to create their own cells, b) they often use chemical pesticides to rid the hive of mites, and c) the honey is often cooked ("pasteurized") before it is sold.

 

Finally, let me say in the friendliest way, if you feel that strongly about exploiting bees that you want to deprive yourself of this wonderful food and medicine, well, that's up to you. But you might want to go outside, lift up the hood of your car, and count the insects murdered in your radiator. Go that many months without riding in a motorized vehicle too. Talk about changing the world for the better! You'd have lots more impact on the earth than abstaining from honey.