Guest Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I'm extremely surprised this issue is ever in debate. Plain and simple...honey/bee pollen comes from an animal...just like wool, milk, eggs. Its doesn't seem like anything that fits under the definition of veganism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganKost Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 There really isn't any question as if honey/bee pollen is vegan, it IS NOT vegan. Clearly by definition it is not. And by any other loose defintion of veganism. Bee pollen/honey is harvested through the power of bees. Plain and simple. Many posts have been made in this thread that clearly explain that bee products are not vegan. I'm not sure where the confusion is. Also, it's not like honey is necessary by ANY means, so avoiding it should be/is extremely easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think the simple fact that most omnivores would say bee products aren't vegan is evidence enough. Maybe 500years ago insects weren't considered animals but now that we have common sense it should be obvious that they are animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogh_me Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 To avoid going off on a very long winded rant.I will simply say that I consume royal jelly (occasionally), and bee pollen. [...] in my mind, bee pollen is not a product of the bees. They transport it. It is a flower product. If you grow your own food already, why not grow your own flowers and collect your own pollen? If you look into it you'll find plenty of information on how to do it. Although it isn't quite the same because bee pollen IS a bee product as the bee mixes its own enzymes into it. And even if it wasn't a bee product it is their food that they've collected, especially as food for baby bees, as is the royal jelly. Its like taking candy from a fuzzy baby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couture547 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The whole bee thing is interesting since vegans do kill a lot of insects through eating plants etc. It is flawed logic to be all over people who eat bee products when the production of everything a vegan eats kills a massive amount of insects. That being said I think that ingesting bee vomit is a bit ing and I do think that the production of honey is cruel, there are alternatives, but on the other hand producing those alternatives also kills insects. It is impossible to be a 100 percent vegan. Think about if your driving a car or buying anything that has been driven in a car which is 100 percent of the population your responisble for killing of some animals. Not to mention there are animals killed in the vegtable growing process. So complaining about someone eatting Bee Pollen is a little over board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Bee products are easy to avoid. As for killing bugs through agriculture thats natural(but sad). Every animal steps on bugs and doesn't know it. Thats part of life...and its not anti vegan. An elephant is vegan but kills more bugs in a day than any of us could...simply due to insect on the plants the elephant eats or the bugs the elephant stomps on while walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I don't think people should worry about what is and isn't 'vegan', instead they should live in a way that they think is most ethical, and seek to educate themselves. Everybody is welcome to the forum, vegan, vegetarian or otherwise. The discussion of what is and isn't 'vegan' never really goes anywhere, since we have the definition of it from the guy who made up the word, and there are the inevitable problems of everyday life, and the societies that we live in which some may say contradict veganism, yet are pretty much unavoidable. I think the focus should always be on what the best course of action is, rather than what fits into the definition of veganism. Some feel there is little difference between harvesting honey and harvesting crops, others feel there is a distinct difference. But I don't think it's easy to change each others minds on the subject, because these kinds of opinions are formed at a very fundamental level in our beliefs about animals and ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kero Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 It's not just about bugs being killed, "blood grain" for example, I don't know the english word for that, it just means that mice and rodents are killed in the harvesting of grains. You are eating mice parts in some extent when eating grains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I don't think people should worry about what is and isn't 'vegan', instead they should live in a way that they think is most ethical, and seek to educate themselves. Everybody is welcome to the forum, vegan, vegetarian or otherwise. The discussion of what is and isn't 'vegan' never really goes anywhere, since we have the definition of it from the guy who made up the word, and there are the inevitable problems of everyday life, and the societies that we live in which some may say contradict veganism, yet are pretty much unavoidable. I think the focus should always be on what the best course of action is, rather than what fits into the definition of veganism. Some feel there is little difference between harvesting honey and harvesting crops, others feel there is a distinct difference. But I don't think it's easy to change each others minds on the subject, because these kinds of opinions are formed at a very fundamental level in our beliefs about animals and ethics. Well said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Couture said, "It is impossible to be a 100 percent vegan. Think about if your driving a car or buying anything that has been driven in a car which is 100 percent of the population your responisble for killing of some animals. Not to mention there are animals killed in the vegtable growing process. So complaining about someone eatting Bee Pollen is a little over board." That's an interesting point because I just heard on the news the other day that they are starting to butcher more cows because the price of corn is getting so high that they can't afford to feed the cows anymore. Corn is being used to produce fuel and alot of people feed their livestock with corn. Everything is interconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 That's an interesting point because I just heard on the news the other day that they are starting to butcher more cows because the price of corn is getting so high that they can't afford to feed the cows anymore. Corn is being used to produce fuel and alot of people feed their livestock with corn. Everything is interconnected. Gotta love the people that think biodiesel is a good alternative.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I don't think the corn thing and butchering more cows is valid. Those cows are gonna be butchered anyway and if they have trouble paying for corn maybe that just means they won't purchase/breed as many new cows. As for not thinking about what is vegan and what is not vegan so much your right. Focus on being the most ethical person you can be...don't consume bee by products...its very easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andesuma Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 That's an interesting point because I just heard on the news the other day that they are starting to butcher more cows because the price of corn is getting so high that they can't afford to feed the cows anymore. Corn is being used to produce fuel and alot of people feed their livestock with corn. Everything is interconnected. Gotta love the people that think biodiesel is a good alternative.... Biodiesel IS a good fuel alternative.It depends on HOW you get it/use it though... obviously from corn,is a very inefficient process & way to go about this. It should be.."gotta love the willfully ignorant masses and greedy government who think ethanol from corn is a good alternative..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I don't know if it is a good fuel or not. I was just pointing out how all things on this earth are tied together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your right...everything is tied together. After all we wouldn't have veal calves if people didn't consume milk and that would be terrible. So would not having honey because if nobody bought honey we wouldn't have bee keepers either and you know how much we all love bee keepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Your right...everything is tied together. After all we wouldn't have veal calves if people didn't consume milk and that would be terrible. So would not having honey because if nobody bought honey we wouldn't have bee keepers either and you know how much we all love bee keepers. Ok already. I am NO longer consuming bee products!! Give me a break huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Instead of bee products you could have Bea products. You just have to get to know someone named Bea and have her make jam for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o293/belleadonna/kittenlick.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andesuma Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Ok already. I am NO longer consuming bee products!! Give me a break huh? Sweetie.. I've been vegan over half of my life.(longer than anyone else, (except loveliberate) on this forum I'd like to add...) I have heard and experienced it ALL. The whole "bee" controversy has ALWAYS been there... it will never goaway. If you are torn about it now, you'll probably still feel the samelater. It comes down to where you draw your lines with health.. with theplanet, with nutrition, and with animals.All the vegans on this forum support the exploitation of bees as well,because they all buy produce. The question is not IF you are a hypocrite or not, butif you are willing to ADMIT you are a hypocrite (because we all are) Do what feels best for you, in your heart. If you feel consuming bee/flower pollen works best for you, as longas you know your supplier (personally), and it's organic. I feel you are doing a service rather than "stealing the honey"... Do what is best for YOU and do not feel oppressed by others dogma. Also.. I plan to be a bee keeper one day [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I know, andesuma. I was just razzing them back. Actually, I just catch the bees myself now and suck the pollen off of their back legs. Maybe that is why my lips are so swollen now??!! But don't tell them. SHHHHHHHH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 All the vegans on this forum support the exploitation of bees as well,because they all buy produce. [/b] Did I miss the thread where all the members copped to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xveganjoshx Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Sweetie.. I've been vegan over half of my life.(longer than anyone else, (except loveliberate) on this forum I'd like to add...) I have heard and experienced it ALL. WOW Your so cool. I wish I could be as cool as you. All the vegans on this forum support the exploitation of bees as well,because they all buy produce.Actually I eat no produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 The vegan clock only starts once you stop eating your last animal product...so you haven't been vegan all that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andesuma Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 WOW Your so cool. I wish I could be as cool as you. I wasn't boasting, I was stating a fact.Because, yes, it does buy me a considerable amount of credibility(and experience), since I am actually an adult..and you, apparently, are still a child. Grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andesuma Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 The vegan clock only starts once you stop eating your last animal product...so you haven't been vegan all that long. Yes I have been.I've been consuming bee/flower pollen for about 6-8 weeks now..(after years of studying bees, pros/cons etc. before I made this decision)So, I've still been vegan well over half of my life. But according to you, and a dead guy, I'm not in the club anymore.hmmm.... wish I felt some sort of loss.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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