Jay

Micheal, haven't read but have heard of Gregory's hunger strikes. Gandhi apparently knew fasting could be good for his health so I wonder if he could really call having a fast a protest. Will, I don't know exactly and don't think such info is out there. This page: http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020127shelton.III/020127.ch7.htm has some stuff that suggests when taking things all the way to starvation it's 3/1 for fat/muscle. But that's for starvation, not fasting and it's based on animal experimentation which doesn't necessarily mean much. lkj, that's exactly what I said until I read up on it.

Saturday Started fast. Not yet sure if I'll exercise during it. Conflicting info out there.

Yes, some muscle will be lost. But not from the heart (unless you go right up to the point where you have no fat left (starvation)). Studies have been conducted on what percentage of mass is lost from each of the body's systems. The heart does not lose anything. This is within Shelton's book. Fasting shouldn't be done with the goal of permanent weight loss in mind. As I said I expect to gain weight. I know from past experience that muscle comes back very quick. There are benefits beyond detox. Energy spent on digestion can instead be used on healing. Also studies now are finding periodic fasting can have the same effects as calorie restriction which increases the length of life. Personally I'm not really interested in "detoxing". Covered by Shelton. Simply the evidence shows that this isn't a problem. OK, detox isn't the goal anyway. But it would appear if it was, that you would still be improving matters...? But really I couldn't care less about "detoxing". Covered by Shelton. Studies have been done showing that (excuse me vegan world) animals fed food that had the nutrients removed died in less than half the time of animals that were simply starved to death. Furthermore, what it comes down to, is people have been doing this for centuries and the evidence shows that it isn't actually bad for you. Still modern science would never dare advocate it, etc, as they wouldn't want to get sued, just in case someone did die. And of course fasting doesn't make you immortal. The average person can go more than 50 days on fasting. Some people have gone over a hundred. I'm not planning on anything like that.

So I've spent about 15 hours researching fasting online these last few days and the result is that I've changed my opinion on it. Before I dismissed it as something religious nuts and health nuts did. And also classified it as a weight loss fad diet. Reading this book http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020127shelton.III/020127.ch1.htm is what primarily changed my mind. But along with this book I read most else online pro and con. There's a lot of religious stuff which asserts it's only use is to bring someone closer to god which I would guess causes a lot of people to dismiss fasting. Then a lot of antifasting propaganda which was addressed by Shelton 70 years ago. Shelton's book was quite interesting. He advocates (careful) fasts of 7, 10, 20, 30 days and occasionally more. (Says don't eat until you find you are truly hungry again, whenever that is.) So I'm going to fast for a while. Not for a month I don't think. I expect the long term result of this to be a weight gain. I did experiement with a periodic calorie restriction then bulk diet (14 days of each) and I surely gained weight/muscle on it. The problem is that forcing yourself to just eat a little and then stopping while you are still hungry, is not fun at all. To just totally not eat at all, is easier. And the evidence seems to strongly points to it actually being healthy or at the least when done intelligently, not unhealthy.

I think the biggest thing is just that it perpetuates the idea of using animals for food. It perpetuates a nonvegan ideology and causes others to be more likely to continue eating meat/supporting factory farming, etc.

Also there is what I consider a misconception about how much protein the body needs. Yes if you are getting 500 grams a day (or 100 etc) then suddenly dropping that in half will result in a very slight decrease in strength/muscle size. But the body will adjust and there are no long term effects beyond that slight weakening in the short term.

Wednesday 10 40's Thursday 5 left arm chin attempts 4 curl attempts on right with 72# barbell shoulder raises 3 att at 62# 3 attempts w/ #3 gripper Started trying to drink a gallon of water/day yesterday

It's Aldous Huxley, one of my favorite writers. (That pic to me is the face of reason scowling at an insane world.) Actually he was almost totally blind not that it shows in that pic. I have a second fish to give him company. But when I got the second one, the first acted like he wanted to get as far away as possible for a couple weeks before he finally got used to him. The second fish is pretty dumb though. Maybe he/she will mature with age.

I've heard people use flatulence as a reason for not becoming vegan. Once the body adjusts I really don't think flatulence is any more of a problem for vegans than for meat eaters.

I have a fish that is like a dog. It's a 9 inch long goldfish in an 80 gallon tank. I do feel bad about having him in a tank. I used to have a beautiful pond. I got a huge tank but it's still just not the same. Anyway the pond fish were so tame I could pet them and this one tank fish is like a dog. He has facial expressions. He gets a pouty look and big puppy dog eyes when he wants food. And then when I get the food out, he wiggles back and forth fast just like a dog. I think he's mostly depressed though. Even an 80 gallon tank just isn't big enough. So anyway the argument for not eating fish is pretty much the same as for any other animal. Except fish are healthier than red meat, without fish the only real source of essential omega 3's is flax seed oil which many vegans don't seem to bother with.

One was for aerosol physics research, the other was to help assist national labs in all kinds of crazy research like laser induced fusion and what happens when you blow things up. I didn't really think so much of the second.

I've had two interviews recently, they were both 8 hours long.

Yeah I'll get you the ten dollar spray from VE. Thats around the age range Id like to end life at personally. As you like. A lot smokers have that idea but I haven't seen any who were happy when they were dying of lung cancer. Hrmm I have been hearing that from Bigbwii as well. Wouldn't not washing it also lead to a more susceptibility to getting sick? I dunno. Anyway I'm not a fan of supplements but I strongly think that vegans need to make sure to get adequate B-12 and omega 3's.

Corporate power usually easily defeats local and state governments. State governments can't afford to take on the bigger corporations as the corporation will simply move to a state that rolls over for them. The senate and presidential elections are hugely important in this respect. This isn't to say that the local is totally unimportant but there certainly is a reason the republicans are all for states rights superseding national government. I haven't read Miller's book. The evidence is quite clear simply from the exit polls. No need to go into all the funny business in Ohio although I have read all about that too. That doesn't prove it though, the statistical analysis of the exit polls versus the final tally does. I like Thom Hartmann's stuff. I read Unequal Protection and something about sustainable living (last rays of the distant sun????) that was pretty good.

Bb, you looked good to begin with though. Skinny but very cut and with some muscle. Better genetics than I've got.

I thought the pulled muscle in my right lat/back was from negatives but now I remember.... I felt the sting when I missed the cue ball while playing billiards. I jokingly said at the time I thought I had just pulled a muscle. I had. I injured myself playing billiards.

Joseph Greenstein (The Mighty Atom) was really big on the mind aspect. He was a near vegetarian who could still rip horseshoes in half in his 70's. I've been trying to use some of his training ideas. I've never noticed my mental state to have anything to do with how I lift though.

1. Maybe without B-12 you die at like 40 or something. That's plenty long enough to have children and your children to have children. And the average life expectancy throughout much of humankind has been below 40. 2. People didn't used to wash food as well/weren't as clean. And you could get some B-12 from dirt/insects droppings, etc I think. 3. Also I think that maybe throughout most of mankind's history they maybe ate meat once or twice a month or something (could vary widely of course) and that gave a nice chunk of B-12. I didn't have time to look at the articles BB but will later.

Give me your address in pm and I'll buy you a three year supply.

Well thanks guys. I'm nothing special though. Maybe someday. Friday four attempts at one arm chins on left, nothing on right as feel like I injured something somehow earlier. No more negatives. Bench 3 attempts on 315, not much going on. Bench lockouts 315, 405x1, 495-not quite dumbell flyes-few reps with 35#ers Saturday few attempts at #3 gripper

That's too bad. You appear quite dogmatic about it. For anyone else reading, all vegans should take B-12 supplements and something with omega 3's (like flax oil). That so many don't bother to educate theirselves on this, is why vegans currently have an average life expectancy that is no better than the average meat eater.

Wednesday Ten 40 yard runs Sciatica flared up last two days. Decided to quit overhead pressing and leg weight lifting.

Oh boy... Why? Is a drop of B-12 on the tongue once a week going to kill people? Is this guy really that sure of himself? Because if he's wrong, he's gonna kill the people who takes his advice and don't bother to get their B-12 supplement. Anyway: Damage can occur to your cardiovascular system for decades from a B-12 deficiency before serious negative health effects present. By then most of the damage is permanent. Bacteria grows better in meat. Why chance it? I'm kind of wary of raw foodists. They are often nuts. Not always of course but beyondveg wouldn't have much to write about without them. No offense, really. I appreciate the article but..... this kind of article.... it makes me wonder if raw foodism is part religion or something. Why is he so adament about not taking a B-12 supplement? The facts he gave don't justify such a dogmatic stance. Scientists normally talk with caution, not like this at all.

I hope everyone is taking B-12 at least. Kollision? I take B-12, calcium and flax seed oil.

It sound like a pretty good device.