Sknydpr

I hope that comment on the intelligence issue^ didn't sound insulting, Nat. It wasn't intended to. Incidentally, a little later in that thread, someone asked why vegans give up dairy since the cow isn't being killed. I started out vegan, but have been lacto- the last several years. But I responded to that question, then realized 'dammit...you're still lying to yourself'. So as of an hour or so ago, I'm a vegan again.

I don't want to bring intelligence into it, it's irrelevant. I only bring up the issue when someone starts whining about how certain Asian cultures eat dogs and cats. (And that's actually a different argument, in that animals' values are placed on them by society, instead of being intrinsic.) The silly person who started that particular thread is still insisting that she'll happily give up eggs and dairy and red meat, but there's no way she could give up seafood and sushi. *sigh* Is anyone familiar with the Cassandra Complex? I get that one all the time.

A body piercing-related message board that I've been on for some time has the vegetarian question come up on occasion. This my most recent reply: It's wrong to kill. It's that simple. There are more gradual ways to come to that conclusion, but that's the bottom line. It is absolutely wrong to kill when you don't have to, and no one on this board has to. There's really no defense for eating animals. Any animals. Flesh is not a nutrional necessity, in fact you'd likely be healthier without it. 300,000 years of history is not a defense; rape and slavery were accepted acts at some points in history. "Animals taste good" is certainly not a defense. I can add reasons for being vegetarian to my premise, but you cannot take that simple fact away. It's wrong to kill. "I don't care" is not a defense. My one conciliatory statement would be that I was 28 when I became a vegetarian, few people are born into it.

These two guys are sitting at the bar at the top of the Empire State Building, and they're both fairly drunk. One of them turns to the other, and says "You know, I've discovered that you can jump off the ledge here, and once you fall to the 20th floor, the updraft from the ground will stop you and put you gently on the ground." The other drunk says "Yeah, sure. I may be drunk but I'm not stupid." The first guy says "Okay, I'll show you," and he walks to the ledge and jumps off. Sure enough, he rapidly falls 82 floors and then stops and slowly floats the rest of the way down. Once he returns to the bar, his drinking buddy is amazed but still skeptical. So he repeats the performance: he jumps off the ledge, falls like a rock for 82 floors, then slowly and gently descends the rest of the way to the ground. He returns to the bar once more. The second guy says "Okay, I'm convinced! I just have to do that myself!" The second drunk hurries to the ledge and jumps off. He plummets 82 stories. Then 92. Then he hits the ground with a splat. The bartender looks at the first man and says "You know, Superman, you're a real asshole when you're drunk."

LOL I'm reclusive but not rich enough to be eccentric, so I'm merely weird.

Here's an interesting list (I like Wikipedia even more than Google ): Vegetarians. There's quite a few notable there than I was unaware of.

Kids these days...

Have you ever read any of his interviews?! The man's a talented musician but, like many artists, he marches to the beat of an very different drummer. My understanding of Dr. Scweitzer was that he'd been vegetarian most of his adult life, but did reluctantly start eating flesh towards the end for health reasons. However, I've never actually read a biography of him (even though I have one), so I could be entirely mistaken. And, you're right: he was a great man, nonetheless.

Unfortunately, Prince is also a nut. I prefer to name people who've actually effected change, such as Dr. Albert Schweitzer, Mohandas Gandhi, Pythagoras, Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy. I'm not sure if all, if any, were vegan but they were all vegetarians.

Hi Brendan. I'm pretty new here, but everyone seems pretty cool and helpful.

Now that's what I'm talking aboot.

You can't be a real Canadian, I haven't seen you end a sentence with "eh?" even once.

I think that it was his grandfather that may have been Jewish, I don't believe it's been conclusively proven. It's fairly irrelevant, anyway.

Way back in 1990, I was stationed in Alaska and temporarily assigned to a buoy tender, a small ship that goes out and makes sure that the navigational buoys in its area of responsibility are where they are supposed to be and functioning properly. One day while we were in the Bering Sea, the Captain decided that we didn't have to be anywhere in any particular hurry, so for the sake of the crew's morale, he authorized a hunting party to go ashore and see if they could kill anything. A few hours later they returned with a caribou and proceeded to butcher it right on the deck of the ship, which I had a some difficulty avoiding. Part of it was served for dinner alongside the roast beef that had already been cooking when the hunting party had returned. I opted for the dead cow instead, and the cook asked me why. I told him that the caribou had been alive and free just a short time earlier and therefore I wasn't willing to touch it. The hypocrisy was inescapable. I was unwilling to eat an animal that had been killed in the wild, but perfectly okay with eating one that had known nothing but captivity. Being the introspective person that I am, this caused me to look at my values. A few weeks later, this being November or so, I resolved that with the new year I would give up all red meat and wean myself off of poultry and fish. This was a rather brave decision, if I do say so myself, as up to that point I was literally a meat and potatoes kind of guy. Other than the tuber, there were no more than three or four vegetables that I was willing to eat, and fewer that I actually liked. However, things moved a little more suddenly than I'd planned. While looking for a cookbook, I came across Ingrid Newkirk's very first book, Save the Animals, which had only just hit the stands. Everything changed with that, and I became a vegan almost immediately. In retrospect, I think it was just a natural thing for me to end up going veggie. I had never hunted, gave up fishing the first time that the fish hadn't died on the stringer and I had had to actively kill it (and hadn't done a lot of fishing up to that point, anyway). It also hadn't been necessary for me to be hit on the head to realize that veal production was barbaric and that there was absolutely no justification for wearing furs. I had only had to be honest with myself, and then get a little push. Dan

Take them for what, exactly?

At least you don't look like Lance Bass of N'Suck. I have a violent dislike of that guy, for reasons I've yet to fathom.

I must respectfully disagree. Overpopulation will be our destruction, and I'm not pointing the finger at third world countries.

It's not, that's the point. Brown sugar is not vegan because it's just white sugar (not vegan) with molasses in it.

I bet you got the basis for a discrimation case there, homie. It's not like you were trying to get a job as a server at Hooters.

Just Googled it. God, I love Google. From I saw: mostly no, since most brown sugar is simply white sugar with molasses added in.

Holy shit....

Exactly, it doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? Unfortunately, the Precepts are not considered to be hard-and-fast rules, rather they're strong 'suggestions'. The more reverant Buddhists feel that it's okay as long as you mentally thank the animal for its sacrifice. And also, since the Buddha Gautama allegedly died from eating spoiled pork, many don't believe that he meant the First Precept they way we wish they would take it.

*Skny runs off to Google Peter Singer on infanticide*

Oh, you don't like Peter Singer? How can you not? Or do you just hold His Holiness in much higher regard? I don't know the details, I was just told somewhere along the line, that he had been vegetarian (which is actually pretty rare among Tibetan Buddhists), but went back to omnivorism on his doctor's advice. I'm not a Buddhist (or a practitioner of any other religion, for that matter), but I have a lot of respect for the religion/philosophy. If more Buddhists followed the First Precept (harm no living being) as it was written, instead of interpreting it to their benefit, I might be more inclined to listen to them.