Vegans bashing Vegans - Intelligent Debate/Conversation

I think this thread could be important if handled seriously.

I know the word "bashing" is a strong word, but that is how I see it online and in person.

Vegans seem to be bashing other vegans with criticism that doesn't seem to help the movement, and in fact, in my opinion hurts the movement.

We have this idea of "I'm a better vegan than you" that turns off a lot of people, non-vegans and vegans alike. It is so prevalent in some areas that it can divide a whole community, city, state, or country of a vegan population.

I know because I see it in Portland, OR, perhaps the Vegan Capital of the World.

Ironically it seems to be mainly the vegans who don't do much for the movement who do the criticizing and complaining. Not in all cases of course, but in many cases.

For some reason, we like to take someone's lifestyle and got our way to prove to them and to everyone else who wants to listen or read, that they are not vegan, or at least not as vegan as they think they are. To me, this is insane and does nothing to help reduce animal suffering, which is why we are vegan in the first place.

We put labels on people and rather than support the good things they do, we look for any flaw we can to say, Ah hah!, gottcha! You're not as vegan as you think, and you suck because of that. And quite frankly I'm better than you, and maybe you shouldn't be vegan if you can't handle it."

Are you kidding me?

This goes on all the time, everywhere, and we claim to be vegans ourselves.

What have we done? We're now more concerned about a label that somewhat matches our lifestyle than about the animals themselves.

I hear this from very influential people in the movement to my non-vegan friends that don't want anything to do with veganism because of how they will be judged, criticized, and the expectations that go along with being vegan.

What happened to just caring more than most?

What happened do wanting to do the right thing as often as possible?

What happened to seeing and understanding the big picture?

What happened to being happy that we're vegan and making a difference rather than being angry at everyone who isn't quite vegan enough?

Come on people. Please get over yourselves. Let's get over ourselves and remember what this is all about. To really understand veganism is to support life and freedom and to care to create change and you do that by having a positive influence on others, not by bashing those who aren't as good as you.

Just because we have things in common such as eating plants doesn't mean we should all be friends or get along, but please understand that whatever label you give yourself, shouldn't be for you, but for a more important reason and cause that is bigger than all of us.

Let's get back to the roots of veganism and create positive change.

I'll chime in here too I guess. Its not an I'm a better vegan than you issue...its a we're vegan and your not issue. To fall under the I'm better than you vegan argument would require two vegans. Lets say John Robbins said he's a better vegan than I am...well he's probably right but we're both vegan. If I said I'm a better vegan than Howard Lyman that would be wrong. However if I said I'm a better vegan than Ted Nugent I'd be right and wrong...he's not a vegan at all so wouldn't really fit in the category...however its obvious who's a better vegan. We should really have a discussion of WHAT A VEGAN IS. We can argue all we want but if an OMNI can say someone calling themselves a VEGAN isn't a VEGAN then that looks bad for everyone.

As for wanting to do the right thing as often as possible I think most of us fall in that category but its obvious that some people choose to do something that isn't vegan for personal gain. This movement and the word VEGANISM is bigger than all of us and should be taken seriously...not in part.

By the way...I don't bash anyone for not being vegan if they don't claim to be. Just as I don't bash anyone for being Christian if they follow what they believe in.

Hi Robert;

One of the reasons I am on this board is that it is dramatically pissing contest free compared to other veg*n fora I've tried.

You are a positive person who is about doing things and pulling people together.

I have to disagree with the thrust of part of your post in terms of "whatever happened to....". I think things have always been this way in the movement.....and......in every other movement that is off the beaten path of the mainstream. Such things will attract the most wonderful people out there, but they will also attract people with all sorts of issues.

I think the goal is for all of us to not bash anyone who is trying to do good. And again, I'm referring to what I see going on in Portland and Globally, not referring to you potter, although many of my points do refer to your outlook on things.

The whole idea of "you're not vegan enough" really hurts the movement.

There are so many positive things that we can focus on and focus our time and energy on, rather than picking an individual, or group apart.

Sure there is good reason why some people have issues with PETA or other groups/individuals. Some things make sense.

I think what has to be done is that we get away from being labeled and labeling others, and we focus on what we can do to reduce animal suffering. Most of us don't nearly do enough positive things with the time, energy and resources we have.

Basically, let's realize what it means to be nice, considerate and thoughtful.

Sure you can say, "you are vegan or you're not, plain and simple." But that already closes the door on someone without even giving them a chance.

We judge too easily and too often.

For example, the most common question asked to vegans in the history of questions asked (other than how/where do you get your protein) is How long have you been vegan? From the get go, we want to know someone's history of dedication to the lifestyle. It's OK, but falls into that category of judging and labeling and allows us to determine if we've been vegan longer and in our own minds, make us better than that person, or feel inferior to that person. We should move away from that, and work together as a team on a mission to reduce animal suffering and cruelty.

Great post, Robert.

I've seen the "Vegan Police" show up in person and online before and nothing good ever comes of it, IMO.

I don't judge anyone by how vegan they are and hope they wouldn't do so to me. We can all find something to criticize in each other if we choose to do so.

Veganism is a definition of what? A lifestyle, a philosophy, a spirituality, a diet, a cult? I think that we all come to our own terms about how we live within our system of morals and beliefs and we label ourselves accordingly. I'm a Democrat who has voted for a different party (not Republican) in the past but I'm still a Democrat. I also identify as a liberal but not all of my thoughts or actions are 100% liberal. But I do my best.

I understand that some people need to live by a very strict definition of who they are - with a set of strict rules to follow. Many people seem to believe that everyone else should be following their rules as well. I think we should all remember that the world is not black and white, that grays and colors do exist, and that we don't always need to voice our opinion (or criticism) when someone is perceived as "not vegan enough" by our yardstick.

Just my thoughts.

Ugh, I took to long to post my reply, now my point is mute.

Thanks for all the input and thoughtful posts so far.

For the record......this didn't just come up because of an argument in another thread......this has been bothering me for months! Jessifly and others have heard me rant about this (it mainly started because of how often I am criticized in Portland, where I arguably do more good for veganism than most....not saying I'm better in anyway, just saying I do a lot of good here and get ripped apart for my efforts at times).

I also sat in the VegNews Magazine office and talked about this subject with one of the most influential people in the history of this movement. We talked about the in-fighting, the labeling, the judging, and the disconnect between our perceived title/label and the real issues of veganism.

It is important and sure, a thread earlier prompted me to post something, but it is an on-going thing I've been talking about for nearly a year now. I even incorporate aspects of this in my talk that I give all over the country.

We can Take Action and Make it Happen, or we can sit back and in a nit-picky style, pick people apart for not being as vegan as we'd like.

I choose to Take positive Action and I hope others will come to that conclusion too.

We're too small of a movement with such an important message to get caught up in ourselves and lose sight of the bigger picture and what really is at stake.

I think things have always been this way in the movement.....and......in every other movement that is off the beaten path of the mainstream.

I am a firm believer that just because something has "always been that way" doesen't mean it has to stay that way.

Circumstances change... people change.

Veganism is attracting more than just animal rights folks now. As I've said many times, I became a Vegan when I found out what a positive effect it has on the Environment. I saw a pole on another forum, and found it fascinating that when asked why people had become Vegan.... Animal Rights and the Environment were both EQUAL in percentages.

This signifies a shift in the motivation. Therefore, just because it has "always been that way before".... does not mean it is going to continue to be that way.

I'm sure in the early 50's, the common population could never imagine the integration that was about to take effect after Martin Luther King...... which is my favorite example when people try to tell me that one person can't make a difference.

One person can make ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!!!

I think that often phrasing / emotion is the problem in these kinds of conversation. If someone thinks someone is wrong to do XYZ, they can outline what's wrong with it, without even talking about what veganism means. The discussions should be about why something is wrong, and with enough evidence, a person should accept when they are doing an action which is unethical, and change their ways. But by simply saying "It's not vegan" that is not enough, and is irrelevent in a discussion in my opinion. Veganism is a description of a set of values that someone has, and the way they live. The word itself won't change how someone wants to live - you have to take each action that someone is doing, and explain the problem with it, rather than just say "you should do XYZ because that's what vegans do". There is a reason why vegans do it, and that should be the focus. Then it doesn't come down to a "I'm vegan, you're not vegan, you're a bad vegan" type argument, because what is being discussed is the individual action, not the word "vegan"

Does anyone think that the internet makes what Robert is complaining about worse?

About a year ago I got sickened from the same kind of thing. Then I realized that I was mostly exposed to it through a local email list for AR activists. I realized that most of the people on that list who bashed either never showed up at in-the-street volunteer events or they would keep their views to themselves whenever showing up in person. I unsubscribed from that list and just kept going to volunteer events. I felt much better and the bashing seems to have disappeared. It seems to *mostly* exist on the internet.

Rob,

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the main reason that this board is my home, because a lot of other boards out there devolve into big battles over insignificant things over what each person's interpretation of veganism is, and it doesn't do anything to further the overall mission. I mean, I've watched discussions that aren't even directly connected to veganism (such as the issue of abortion/right to life) get people into a lather to state that they question each other side's veganism if they don't agree to the same theories. I've had my fill of that stuff - I no longer like to get into big debates about anything because, while I'd usually chime in and state that such banter wasn't helping veganism in any way, it'd be overlooked because people would usually rather fight than agree to disagree or even take a moment to ponder how the other side feels. It's sad that this is the state of pretty much every movement, including veganism, and people need to pause and ask themselves one simple question: If the debate/argument isn't furthering veganism and helping the cause we're all out fighting for, why the hell are we making enemies of our own kind simply over our own interpretations? Creating rifts and making battles within the movement isn't promoting compassion or doing any good. If people can simply keep it civil and realize that their own theories on what makes someone vegan are often simply personal beliefs (this isn't Freemasonry or karate, we don't have different degrees of veganism...) rather than absolute law, we'd all get along much better. Just like how people get all weird over discussing PETA vs. other AR groups - it almost always ends up with people getting angry, when we should just realize that there's plenty of room for everyone. Even if you don't agree with the other party's way of doing things/thinking, screw it, just agree that if you're on the same mission using different tactics/ideals. United we stand, divided we fall, and as I always say in these kind of discussions, there's nothing more that our real enemies would like to see than for us to battle amongst ourselves. They know that causing dissent in the movement is a very powerful tool, and every time we get personal over matters that don't warrant such emotion, we're just feeding the negativity that we're supposed to be against. Oh well, all I can do is keep fighting the good fight. Hopefully this topic and others like it will build more solidarity in the community, which seems so often to be looking for reasons to pick fights amongst itself.

I used to be like that. I wasn't in anybody's face about it, but I had no problem telling people that how they live is immoral, and i'd post it on my websites and whatever else. So for several people the first vegan they knew was a real jerk. One person continues to give me a hard time about it. They still suspect that i'm some kind of vegan evangelist, but I'm not. Robert and vegan outreach have greatly helped me just look at the positives and not be so adamant about VEGANISM. Also I spent several months listening to http://www.animalvoices.ca/ . I am the kind of guy that really enjoys talk radio and while veganism is probably not about to take over a local A.M. station near me, its on the radio. The animal voices folks try to get a variety of guests and opinions on the show. They are still more animal rights than welfare, but leave room for both, and even vegans that *gasp* have gone back to consuming dairy or something while overseas. It just makes you re-evaluate what you really want to be uppity about.

So everybody keep up the good fight, stay motivated, stay healthy...and can I still say, "stay vegan?"

I think the term "vegan" in itself separates and is not good. I don't call myself vegan, I do what I can to reduce suffering of other creatures. It's a moral issue for me, not a subculture that I care about identifying with so I have a label for myself.

Anything that separates people is always going to cause conflict.

This discussion reminds me of a blog post from HELD vegan belts..

"The Politics of Vegan (found letter)

Eyes open,

The world has plenty of hatred going around. The Vegan community can be a place of refuge from that hatred. How can we espouse empathy for critters while slandering each other?

I have not yet been personally affronted but I see plenty of sh**-talking of others within the vegan community. People are put down, people who promote an Animal Rights agenda are gossiped about, dragged through the mud of social implications, unjustly disparaged.

Is it really the job of our citizenry to hand out sentencing without trial? I've seen no evidence to support these claims that some our fellow vegans are more worthy of negative attention than omnivores who are equally close by.

The solution I offer is simple; save the fight for those who most need it while being a positive example to those near you. If you feel someone within the vegan community is behaving in a sick way then perhaps you ought to spend more time with that person or shopping at their store or whatever the case may be: help them, offer support. To exile a vegan from the vegan community serves no pragmatic purpose, at best it is a maneuver taken from high school where it ought to stay.

Example: "I heard _____(name) does _____(some bad thing) so don't buy her/his _____(vegan goods)."

It is none of our business what Blank does in Blank's spare time so long as no animals are being hurt. Scrutinize anyone enough and you will surely find something to disagree with (except me of course- I'm flawless). We need to look at what we like about each other and disregard the the parts which don't need nourishing. Attention, focus will only give strength to the sickness and weaken the movement. United we are strong. You can only heal who is close to you, it has been proven again and again that punishment is not effective at changing behavior.

So if you heard a rumor which discredits a vegan go to that person and ask them if it is true before you choose to negate all the good they can be doing. Ask the person(s) what you can do to help, if you find sickness tell them of the sick part and what they might do to change it. Usually letting someone who has the empathic ability know they are possibly hurting someone is enough to enact change. Speak up, tell them you see some injustice, don't silently monkey wrench based on rumors.

Unify, gain strength and momentum by coming together, don't judge and condemn. Be armed with facts not rumor- our enemy isn't a vegan or someone trying to become vegan; our enemy is an intentional cruelty- not an accidental apathy.

(unsigned, found on the streets of Portland, Oregon 9/29/07)"

This discussion reminds me of a blog post from HELD vegan belts..

 

"The Politics of Vegan (found letter)

 

Eyes open,

 

The world has plenty of hatred going around. The Vegan community can be a place of refuge from that hatred. How can we espouse empathy for critters while slandering each other?

 

I have not yet been personally affronted but I see plenty of sh**-talking of others within the vegan community. People are put down, people who promote an Animal Rights agenda are gossiped about, dragged through the mud of social implications, unjustly disparaged.

 

Is it really the job of our citizenry to hand out sentencing without trial? I've seen no evidence to support these claims that some our fellow vegans are more worthy of negative attention than omnivores who are equally close by.

 

The solution I offer is simple; save the fight for those who most need it while being a positive example to those near you. If you feel someone within the vegan community is behaving in a sick way then perhaps you ought to spend more time with that person or shopping at their store or whatever the case may be: help them, offer support. To exile a vegan from the vegan community serves no pragmatic purpose, at best it is a maneuver taken from high school where it ought to stay.

 

Example: "I heard _____(name) does _____(some bad thing) so don't buy her/his _____(vegan goods)."

 

It is none of our business what Blank does in Blank's spare time so long as no animals are being hurt. Scrutinize anyone enough and you will surely find something to disagree with (except me of course- I'm flawless). We need to look at what we like about each other and disregard the the parts which don't need nourishing. Attention, focus will only give strength to the sickness and weaken the movement. United we are strong. You can only heal who is close to you, it has been proven again and again that punishment is not effective at changing behavior.

 

So if you heard a rumor which discredits a vegan go to that person and ask them if it is true before you choose to negate all the good they can be doing. Ask the person(s) what you can do to help, if you find sickness tell them of the sick part and what they might do to change it. Usually letting someone who has the empathic ability know they are possibly hurting someone is enough to enact change. Speak up, tell them you see some injustice, don't silently monkey wrench based on rumors.

 

Unify, gain strength and momentum by coming together, don't judge and condemn. Be armed with facts not rumor- our enemy isn't a vegan or someone trying to become vegan; our enemy is an intentional cruelty- not an accidental apathy.

 

(unsigned, found on the streets of Portland, Oregon 9/29/07)"

Awesome!

Thanks for sharing that. Of course, it would come from Portland too! Which is why I started writing about this issue. I can already relate to it and can even think of examples of who they are referring to in "blank and blank"

That seems like a post i could have made since I feel the same way about a lot of those things, but it wasn't by me.

I know the people at HELD. I hung out with them and had dinner at their house.

I appreciate them putting this out there. Portland is a vegan city divided and I've dedicated the last year and a half that I've been here to try to reunite the vegan community. I try and often I'm the one referred to as one of the "blanks"

Thanks again for posting this Jessifly. It was a good read.

Portland is a vegan city divided ...

I know I can be quite an idealist and maybe see things too positively at times but honestly I don't see Portland as a vegan city divided, I see it as the opposite, full of loving, empathetic people with a large and extraordinary population of people who identify as vegans. And within the population I see an array of beliefs and personalities united by compassion and respect. It is rare for me to see any "bashing", at least not much that can thrive amidst the positive energy. But, then I have only been here a little over 8 months, perhaps my optimism isn't valid? Perhaps I am looking through rose-colored glasses

Robert told me about this thread and I figured there would be a lot of arguing, but it seems like just about everyone here is in agreement.

At the risk of being unpopular, I am not so sure that vegan is an adjective that someone is or is not. This is the opposite of what potter wrote at the beginning where he said that there is clear division between vegans and non vegans.

"Vegan," as other have already stated on this thread, best describes an ideal of ethics and values, and people who call themselves "vegan" try much harder than others to live up to those values, but we all know that there there is ALWAYS something else we could be doing to be less hamful to other beings on this planet. Maybe non of us are vegan. Maybe we just try to be vegan.

For example, can you call yourself a vegan if you burn fossil fuels? That is harmful to the planet and it's creatures, but almost all people who call themselves vegans drive cars.

I guess my point is that it

1) don't be too judgemental of non-vegans because even vegans engage in activites that could be harmful

2) This principle is also why Vegans shouldn't be too judgemental with eachother about who is a better vegan.

Zach raises a good point about the term vegan. I'm going to call myself a vegan because thats how I eat and is part of my mindset. However when people learn more about me they often ask if I do something because I'm a vegan or that I shouldn't do something because I'm a vegan. So as terms do, vegan does set us apart and puts us in a category with expectations of others. people begin to see us as just vegan but all of us are more than just vegan. Thats the problem with labels, they do not take into account the multifaceted aspect of life. In psychology we avoid calling people by their disability such as schizoid or bipolar but say that an individual has some condition, thereby recognizing the individual humanity first. But they can be useful. It would be hard to meet other veganesque people without the term (it is just a symbol), and would you be living this vegan lifestyle without the term vegan? it's a lot easier to use a term than to just always loosely describe something. We could be the bodybuilding and fitness site for people who dont eat animal products and have compassion for animals (on and on we could describe). Labels have a good and bad side. I think the problem is how to define our label. Thats where all the fighting comes in...even though vegan is a pretty easy definition, there are extreme points. I accept that nobody is probably 100% vegan, you can find something that makes them non vegan. We just gotta help eachother be as consistent as possible.

 

1) don't be too judgmental of non-vegans because even vegans engage in activities that could be harmful

 

2) This principle is also why Vegans shouldn't be too judgmental with each other about who is a better vegan.

Great point David! I agree with that completely, and I think you are right, none of us really are vegan because being vegan is a continual effort, a journey

Robert, I know you and I have had discussions like this but I can't remember if I ever asked specifically what kind of bashing you see? I am curious what kind of things specifically are said about you as a vegan?

Also, not to quibble about what you are saying but I would like to point out ..

to help reduce animal suffering, which is why we are vegan in the first place.

.. that is not accurate for all, and therein lies a possibility of the perception of separation. That sentence could be read by someone, for example, who made the choice to be vegan for health reasons or spiritual reasons or environmental reasons or political reasons but doesn't necessarily care about reducing animal suffering. Many of us who are compassionate for the animals may gasp at that and think, well then they are wrong, but that makes this vegan just as guilty of creating separation as any other who views the motivation as lesser than their own.

Let's get back to the roots of veganism and create positive change.

I think we all are still the roots of veganism.

Yes, let's create positive change

When the roots of veganism came about (from the dude that I always forget the name of) a lot of the big issues on our planet were unknown. What it actually does is to show compassion for the animals inside the boundaries of our human culture and the ones who directly gets affected by it. It doesn't state squat about all the millions of living organisms that are affected secondarily by our way of life. To most animal rightists the possible positive effects of veganism is merely seen as side effect to their lifestyle even though this side effect is probably saving more lives than the original intent that he/she had. The definition is to me old and flawed to be honest.

So when the pissing contest starts I find it rather ridiculous, it's like watching a debate between GWB and Dick Cheney on how to build a peacful world.

Portland is a vegan city divided ...

 

I know I can be quite an idealist and maybe see things too positively at times but honestly I don't see Portland as a vegan city divided, I see it as the opposite, full of loving, empathetic people with a large and extraordinary population of people who identify as vegans. And within the population I see an array of beliefs and personalities united by compassion and respect. It is rare for me to see any "bashing", at least not much that can thrive amidst the positive energy. But, then I have only been here a little over 8 months, perhaps my optimism isn't valid? Perhaps I am looking through rose-colored glasses

I don't want to get off-topic too much, but I can give you countless of examples, and some of these I'll just tell you rather than try to post certain situations online mentioning people or companies that may cause some people to get upset.

But I will give some examples.

I actually see the vegan community in Portland as a VERY divided community and I've seen the community come together more after the Vegan Holiday Festival and VegFest than ever before.

What I'm specifically referring to is the different "groups" or "crowds" of vegans that don't mix at all/don't always support each other/often talk "trash" about each other.

One quick example: Have you ever seen ANYONE from the Food Fight Crowd at a NW VEG event other than VegFest (say a potluck, a talk, Vegan Thanksgiving party, etc.? The answer is almost always "NO." Those groups just don't mix for a variety of reasons and I hear "bashing" all the time. I know bashing is a harsh word, but trust me, I hear verbal bashing all the time.

Likewise, do you ever see NW VEG members/Board members at Food Fight parties, birthday events, moving showings? VERY rarely. It just doesn't happen. I'm part of both groups and both groups have issues with how the other group conducts themselves. I'll give you more examples in person later, I don't want to bring up too many details online.

I'm trying to bring those groups together.

Then there is the Pirate's Tavern crowd, the blossoming Lotus crowd, and Veganopolis who doesn't want anything to do with anyone in this town (I've met with all of these business owners so I see the division and hear the complaints, the rants, etc.).

I think you're right that we do have a great community here and I think you've surrounded yourself with great vegans, and you've been to a variety of events.

I also love your positive outlook on things. The only reason I bring this up is because in some way, I'm part of nearly ever single vegan crowd in Portland because of the events I put on, the networking I do the businesses/organizations I support.

Portland is a great place to be, and a great place to be vegan. We have a wonderful community here and I'll continue to work to bring some of these groups together.

And yeah, I get bashed, made fun of, criticized, called names all the time, by other vegans here in town, but it doesn't bother me "anymore." I also get a ton of love and support from our community here too.

But enough about Portland.........that just sparked my interest in posting this discussion because right here in my own town, the vegans bashing vegans happens all the time, and I know it happens all over on a global scale.

It's time to understand what we're fighting for, focus our energy on that and create positive outcomes.

There are lots of good points in this thread and I feel it is very worthwhile to discuss this topic

............P.S. I'm back to add one more thing......the Portland vegan community has come a long way in the past year and a half. I'm not going to take credit, but it was after the first Vegan Holiday Festival that so many businesses started working together who had never worked together before. It was so inspiring to see and so fulfilling for me! The Vegan Vacation, VegFest, and other event breed enthusiasm here in Portland.

Before I got here there were about 3 forum members in Portland, now there are over 40 forum members here. Again, I'm not taking credit, but I'm showing that I have real, sincere efforts to bring this community together and I think a lot of the love and acceptance you are now seeing in the vegan community is partially a by-product of some really sincere, intentional efforts to bring like-minded people together in Portland.

It is happening more and more all the time, and possibly more than anyone, I'm thrilled to see it!

It's all love folks. Keep the positive vibes going. We have a wonderful cause to speak up for and to take action for.

First off I have to say being vegan in itself IS NOT A GOOD THING...its just not a bad thing. If you are vegan in itself you are not doing any good for animals at all. You just aren't doing harm to them. So I don't hold this term VEGAN as something that places me above the frey. Being a good animal rights activist is a different story and others are better than myself for sure. They aren't more or less vegan than I am but they are better activists and of course there are ones that aren't quite as good. However you can be a animal rights activist and not be a vegan. Paul Mcartney is a great example. He isn't a vegan but with the money he's put into the movement alone he has done more than I probably ever will for animals. However he never claimed to be vegan. People that claim to be vegan but aren't can only hurt the credibility of us. Paul doesn't because he doesn't claim to be vegan and never has. Don't claim to be vegan if you aren't...if you believe in a plant based diet for your own health then fine(I'm much rather this be the case than it is now)...write a book about it but don't claim to be vegan if you aren't. Someone that lives on potato chips just because its food and its cheap isn't a vegan..its just something they do. They can write about living on potato chips. Someone the looks at a label for a pill they WANT and don't NEED and finds it has GELATIN in it and they buy it anyway because they want to buy it means they aren't vegan.

Lets be serious here. How many of you forum members wouldn't feel guilty if you came home and found out that you accidently bought something that had gelatin in it??? This deserves more of these"????"

If you would feel guilty about it that means that someone that does it on purpose as a monthly ruitine is not even remotely in the same mindset of others. I know you guys don't want to bash anyone and you want stretch definitions as much as possible to be inclusive but this isn't the way to go about it. Including people that aren't vegan in the world of AR is fine as many non vegans have done lots of good...however including non vegans as promotional figures for veganism just reaks. It stinks of bloody politics...the kind that gets people like Ronald Reagan in office. Use a nice figure to promote your agenda...even if they don't fit...you make them fit however possible. Sure arguing about this is bad...however it shouldn't be considered dividing if the other party was never on the same side to begin with. You just want to believe he's there with us but he isn't. Of course I'd love to have an elite bodybuilder in our community. We need it and this would be great. He looks incredible. Unfortunately he is not a vegan and I'm really bugged that people here think he is.

I'm pretty sure if you knew something wasn't vegan(for example the pills he purchases for self improvement) and any of you forum members was shopping with me and noticed I wasn't reading labels(meaning this would be a lapse of judgement and therefore a bad mistake) and picked up something to purchase that you recognize as not being vegan you would point it out to me. If you wouldn't then say it now. If you would that means that what I was about to purchase by accident wasn't vegan. Well guess what...this person would buy that on purpose. I feel like I'm a maniac in this forum for having to point this out. Its just rediculous.

First off I have to say being vegan in itself IS NOT A GOOD THING...its just not a bad thing. If you are vegan in itself you are not doing any good for animals at all. You just aren't doing harm to them. So I don't hold this term VEGAN as something that places me above the frey. Being a good animal rights activist is a different story and others are better than myself for sure. They aren't more or less vegan than I am but they are better activists and of course there are ones that aren't quite as good. However you can be a animal rights activist and not be a vegan. Paul Mcartney is a great example. He isn't a vegan but with the money he's put into the movement alone he has done more than I probably ever will for animals. However he never claimed to be vegan. People that claim to be vegan but aren't can only hurt the credibility of us. Paul doesn't because he doesn't claim to be vegan and never has. Don't claim to be vegan if you aren't...if you believe in a plant based diet for your own health then fine(I'm much rather this be the case than it is now)...write a book about it but don't claim to be vegan if you aren't. Someone that lives on potato chips just because its food and its cheap isn't a vegan..its just something they do. They can write about living on potato chips. Someone the looks at a label for a pill they WANT and don't NEED and finds it has GELATIN in it and they buy it anyway because they want to buy it means they aren't vegan.

 

Lets be serious here. How many of you forum members wouldn't feel guilty if you came home and found out that you accidently bought something that had gelatin in it??? This deserves more of these"????"

 

If you would feel guilty about it that means that someone that does it on purpose as a monthly ruitine is not even remotely in the same mindset of others. I know you guys don't want to bash anyone and you want stretch definitions as much as possible to be inclusive but this isn't the way to go about it. Including people that aren't vegan in the world of AR is fine as many non vegans have done lots of good...however including non vegans as promotional figures for veganism just reaks. It stinks of bloody politics...the kind that gets people like Ronald Reagan in office. Use a nice figure to promote your agenda...even if they don't fit...you make them fit however possible. Sure arguing about this is bad...however it shouldn't be considered dividing if the other party was never on the same side to begin with. You just want to believe he's there with us but he isn't. Of course I'd love to have an elite bodybuilder in our community. We need it and this would be great. He looks incredible. Unfortunately he is not a vegan and I'm really bugged that people here think he is.

 

I'm pretty sure if you knew something wasn't vegan(for example the pills he purchases for self improvement) and any of you forum members was shopping with me and noticed I wasn't reading labels(meaning this would be a lapse of judgement and therefore a bad mistake) and picked up something to purchase that you recognize as not being vegan you would point it out to me. If you wouldn't then say it now. If you would that means that what I was about to purchase by accident wasn't vegan. Well guess what...this person would buy that on purpose. I feel like I'm a maniac in this forum for having to point this out. Its just rediculous.

Good Point Potter but you are a maniac and that's why we love you so much

As for me being vegan. I've still kinda new to this whole lifestyle. A yr and half. I try to be as vegan as I can.

But could you give up riding your bike? or driving your car? My computer I'm on right now could be non-vegan. Or do you use the hand sop in the public washroom?

It really boils down to how far you want to go.

But I think we are all the same on here. Or other wise Robert wouldn't called this a vegan form.

Well, I remember the thread and supplement to which you are referring so let me play devils advocate for a moment.

Yes, I understand that by the TECHNICAL DEFINITION the fact that he buys a product that is encased in a gelatin capsule may not constitute the textbook definition. He made the decision to not personally injest the outer gelatin portion, but yes, he is throwing a few cents towards the industry for that one particular supplement.

Perhaps that particular supplement gives him a competitive edge that no other supplement could and he weighed the pros and cons and decided to keep it. If that makes a tremendous difference in his growth and gains and allows him to win the competition, standing next to a guy who threw thousands of dollars to the meat and dairy industry, and it draws attention to the cause and the bigger picture, then so be it.

I'm sure he doesen't feel 100% great about taking it. I'm sure that the millisecond they made it available in another form, he would take it. But for now, he made the decision and he's inspired many many athletes and probably even converted a few, so we should be looking at that.

But that's what this thread is all about.... that we should stop measuring the degree to which someone is a Vegan. By your definition, wouldn't it be more confusing if he started calling himself a "Vegetarian" at this stage of the game? Don't you think that people who know the definition of the word Vegan might go, "Oh, wow, guess he's eating dairy now, what a shame he's not Vegan anymore". It would be totally confusing and do more harm than good. But that's not the point. I just think we need to be more lenient and accepting for things that fall outside our definition the exact definition of the word.

Bodybuilding is his sport of choice, and he goes up against guys who inject themselves with drugs and probably each consume the equivalent of an entire herd for comp prep. He draws alot of positive attention to it and is a positive role model and should be supported by those in his community, even if it's not a decision they would make given the circumstances.