Are xenoestrogens in soy making you fat?

[Ruz]

Estrogenic compounds in food have long been indicated in causing "stubborn" fat deposits. Particuarly femenized fat deposits, those on the thighs and tummy for women, and "breasts" for for men. Soy isoflavanoes contain large amounts of estrogenic compounds known as xenoestrogens. I have seen this discussed many times on various websites, and recently read about it again in 2 books :"the stubborn fat solution" By David Grisaffi and "The Warrior Diet" by some guy with a really wierd name =)

I find it worrying, especially as in many tests vegan men have far lower levels of testosterone than meat eaters. Maybe soy is the culprit! And maybe soy consumption would explain why so many otherwise slim vegan women seem to have these localized "pockets" of fat on their tummy thighs or hips.

Anyway, as a body builder, I've read SO much negative stuff about soy that this is really the straw that breaks the camels back, so to say and I'm going to give it a miss completely!

What do you guys think?

[Ducati]

I am leery of studies concerning soy. Either for or against. There is more politics revolving around soy than their is science.

 

Vegan men will have less testosterone because they are not consuming testosterone in meat, nor are they consuming testosterone triggers such as cholesterol. And men with lower testosterone are typically more calm, have more hair, and are at lower risk for cancer.

[beforewisdom]

The other side of the story:

http://beforewisdom.com/blog/?cat=23

 

2 years ago I lost 48 lbs. I ate soy foods several times a week as I have since 14. All of the nightmares from the scare mongers haven't come true for me.

[Ruz]

I don't think you are getting the point I'm trying to make.

Soy very obviously has estrogenic properties. I know that men are also less aggressive etc etc with lower levels of testosterone but as a bodybuilders i want to stimulate testosterone production, not limit it! So soy sucks!

Also, I'm not talking about using soy to lose huge quantities of fat, I fully believe that's possible...but I have severe doubts about whether its possible to get truly "ripped" on soy.

I suppose it all depends on how seriously you take the sport.

Also, on a more personal note, soy makes me feel bloated and gives me spots like an adolescent. Yep, its great to eat and easy to use and I'm sure a lot of you guys tolerate it better than I do..but then again i have been eating as my main protein for about 25 years, and for me, the longer i ate it, the more sensitive i became..till now, just looking at it makes me break out in hives and start farting! LOL

I'll stick to my nuts, pulses and hemp protein thanks. For every positive article you show me about soy, you know full well that there is an article out there highlighting the dangers of soy. That alone should be enought to cause you to treat soy cautiously, but given its proven effect on estrogen production, I dont think anyone who is dedicated to bodybuilding would consider having more than a minimum amount of soy in their diet, if any.

[tuc]

Answer to your question: no.

 

http://www.tmuscle.com/article/most_recent/soy_whats_the_big_deal

[Ruz]

Answer to your question: no.

 

http://www.tmuscle.com/article/most_recent/soy_whats_the_big_deal

It's a very interesting article. Though the part which interests me still seems to be a bit hazy:

 

What About Those Phytoestrogens?

 

Many exercisers and athletes are concerned that the phytoestrogens (estrogen-like nutrients, such as isoflavones) in soy might be harmful to their health, hormonal profile, and body composition. Well, before discussing this very "applied" issue, let's look at what phytoestrogens really are.

 

Phytoestrogens (we'll call them "PE's" from now on) are a group of natural estrogen receptor modulators found in various foods, with soy being the predominant source. In plants, these PE's serve as a defense mechanism and natural fungicide.

 

When soy protein isolates and concentrates are created from soybeans, PE (and phytonutrient) content is diminished due to the alcohol used in extraction. So, many of the PE's are naturally removed during the extraction process. However, some do remain.

 

The PE's found in soy foods include genistein, daidzein, and glycitein. These PE's are similar in structure to the estrogen hormone, estradiol. As a result, PE's have both weak estrogen-stimulating (estrogenic) and an estrogen-inhibiting (anti-estrogenic) effects, depending on the circumstance.

 

 

Phytoestrogens can be good or bad, like a hot date or your crazy ex.

 

When someone swallows a mouthful of soy, the PE's are modified by intestinal bacteria and taken up into the blood. Once in the blood, these chemicals can weakly attach to the body's estrogen receptors. The body recognizes this binding of its estrogen receptors as a signal to produce less of its own estrogen.

 

That's one way that soy can actually lowerestrogen production.

 

Another potential mechanism of PE action in the body is the alteration of circulating estrogen and Testosterone concentrations. These can be altered by the PE's attaching to sex-hormone binding proteins found in the blood.

 

The UK Committee on Toxicity (2003) noted that PE's bind weakly to the sex-hormone binding proteins and are unlikely to prevent estrogen or androgen binding at normal blood levels.

 

However, when consumed in high doses, PE's could potentially act as anti-estrogens at the cellular level by competitively binding to estrogen receptors, thus preventing the binding of estrogens that were produced within the body. However, by binding to sex-hormone binding proteins, these PE's could displace estrogens from their blood-bound carriers and free them up to provoke stronger estrogen action in the body.

 

So, as usual when it comes to biochemistry, there's no clear cut explanation for determining how PE's will function in the body. The actual effects depend on total amount of PE's in the body, receptor binding affinities, and probably a host of genetic factors.

 

Okay, now that we have some idea (a murky one, at that) of how PE's work in the body, let's look at what the research says regarding how PE's might affect our hormonal action.

 

One study demonstrated that rats with a high exposure to PE's from soy (20 mg/kg and greater) had lower Testosterone levels. Now, here's the important differentiation point. In the lower dose groups, there were no significant changes to Testosterone (more on this below).

 

Further, other studies are mixed, showing no change in Testosterone levels, lower Testosterone levels, or with a down regulation of estrogen receptors with high PE's in the blood.

 

In the end, despite these mixed results and a lack of consensus, there's a common theme: Extremely high levels of PE's have an unfavorable influence on hormone levels, especially when it comes to hormonal status, as well as building muscle and staying lean. However, lower levels don't seem to be problematic.

 

It goes into more detail about the dosage required to produce negative effects. However, to be honest I didn't personally experience any negative effects of soy comsumption until I started taking soy protein isolate. What the article doesn't go into specifically is fat distribution, which is my concern. It talks about overall fat levels but not female pattern fat distribution.

This article may indeed quell the concerns of many, but as I stated previously, for every well documented article praising soy, there is an equally valid article damning it. All i can do in such a situation is use my common sense and listen to my body and see how it reacts to various substances. Interestingly, I've spent the last 15 years eating A LOT of soy, and have only had about 2 menstruations a year. Since I stopped eating soy, I've lost belly fat (although my overall fat levels are the same) and now have regular periods. Logically, for me, its a strong indicator that soy was seriously messing with my hormones. Also the fact that I always had teenage type acne until I cut out the soy, could perhaps be another indicator of a hormonal imbalance (though of course it could be just a symptom of allergy).

I know that my own one individual case study isn't of any real importance in the grand scale of things, and I would never tell anyone not to eat soy..that's a personal decision. I just wondered anyone else out there has had any negative side effects from eating a lot of soy products, or indeed if any women had noticed changes in their menstrual cycles etc when consuming more soy?¿?¿?¿?¿

[Ruz]

I just saw the article had another page! hahaha

Well they seem to have drawn the same conclusions as I have:

 

We don't think soy is anything special in terms of disease prevention. Nor do we think it's extremely harmful in your quest for optimal health, body composition, or performance. With that said, we do caution against excessive soy intake. When consumption of soy foods is excessive, there might be some negative effects going on.

 

To this end, it seems best to avoid isolated and highly refined forms of soy on a regular basis. In other words, things like soy isolates, soy concentrates, textured soy protein, etc. should be minimized in the diet. Whole soybeans, soy milks, tofu, tempeh, and miso, on the other hand, are better options.

 

In terms of total intake, we'd say one to two servings of soy per day seems to be a safe and potentially healthy intake. Exceeding three servings per day on a regular basis may not be a good idea. For good measure, a serving is one cup of soy milk and four ounces of tofu, tempeh, or soybeans.

 

Like I said, until I started taking soy protein isolate, I didn't experience a problem with soy..afterall, irregular periods and acne COULD be put down to something else. However, it appears that now, through excessive soy consumption, I have created an allergy to soy that I didn't have before. As I've always enjoyed soy this is a bit of a bummer because it makes eating high protein meals a hell of a lot more difficult, not to mention expensive! In conclusion, I have to say, eating soy is a personal decision, but don't go overboard or you may regret it!!

[xjohanx]

I do not see the point of starting yet another thread about this subject. It has been discussed in a ridicolous amount of threads and the conclusion is always that soy is harmless but make sure you get enough iodine. There is an awesome search function on this forum.

 

If you get pimples/spots and feel bloated from soy don't eat it, you might be sensitive to it. If you already have those problems and on top of that you're (for no good reason) scared of the phytoestrogens, why even bother eating it?

[Ruz]

I do not see the point of starting yet another thread about this subject. It has been discussed in a ridicolous amount of threads and the conclusion is always that soy is harmless but make sure you get enough iodine. There is an awesome search function on this forum.

 

If you get pimples/spots and feel bloated from soy don't eat it, you might be sensitive to it. If you already have those problems and on top of that you're (for no good reason) scared of the phytoestrogens, why even bother eating it?

Wow..you're friendly!

I dont see how you can come to the conclusion that "soy is harmless" when the experts still can't agree. When someone shows me a photo of themselves super ripped and taking soy protein, then I'll be convinced.

Maybe you should explain how the "awesome search function" works instead of getting all high and mighty about it! I only joined this forum this year, whereas you have been using it for several years now..so come on, share your expeert experience and stop criticising!

[vegan801power]

Has anyone on this forum actually had their testosterone levels tested? I have a very high in soy diet, but universally am told that I have too much testosterone by friends and family! definetly not a calm person; race cars, adrenaline junkie, just got a second assault charge etc....

 

I personally feel that it is a myth that vegans are "calmer", as most of the vegans I know are pretty agressive people that seem to find themselves in altercations of various sorts.

 

I will be getting my test levels evaluated, but not for another month or so, once I am done playing around with various test boosters.

 

I really would like to know if anyone has had their test levels evaluated for their age/ gender, etc.

[xjohanx]

Wow..you're friendly!

 

Thank you!

 

I dont see how you can come to the conclusion that "soy is harmless" when the experts still can't agree. When someone shows me a photo of themselves super ripped and taking soy protein, then I'll be convinced.

 

Are you serious? Name me one "expert" who thinks soy is so bad. Please don't link me to Mercolas site cause that dude is fucking full of it. And if ONE person that takes yoy protein is ripped you'll stop believing in the "experts"? I can show you a bunch of people who are healthy and cancer free despite smoking a pack of cigarettes a day for the last 30 years, does that mean smoking doesn't cause lung cancer?

 

Also does this person have to take the protein powder or is regular soy/TVP/fake meats also okay? I'm pretty sure you can find those here. I eat about 80 grams of soy protein per day and have 6,8% bodyfat, the "healthy" range is 15-20%. I know Robert eats soy and he's usually kinda ripped. Mac Danzig (mma fighter) eats soy and I bet you can find some people on here that are pretty ripped who are frequent soy consumers.

 

Maybe you should explain how the "awesome search function" works instead of getting all high and mighty about it! I only joined this forum this year, whereas you have been using it for several years now..so come on, share your expeert experience and stop criticising!

 

Upper right corner, press the "search" button. Write keywords that you are looking for like "estrogen soy" "testosterone soy", I would choose to show results as topics and not posts. There is also a sticky in the health & nutrition section about a study where they measured t-levels in two groups, one supplementing with whey and one with soy. No significant difference. As far as I know there have been no human studies that has shown t-levels going down because of soy.

If soy made people fat Asia would probably be fucked, vegetarians would be more overweight than omnis etc. None of those scenarios is the reality.

 

Has anyone on this forum actually had their testosterone levels tested?

 

I did it about 3 years ago, I had higher than the average male my age but the doctor said it was normal for weightlifters and martial artists.

[beforewisdom]

Has anyone on this forum actually had their testosterone levels tested?

 

That is a great point. It is a simple test added on to a doctors visit so I don't know why people obsess about it on the web.

 

Over the years on vegan web boards there have been a few people who have done this and I can't recall a single problem.

[Ducati]

If Flava beans were used in the quantity that soy is used in our society, I can guarantee you, we would be talking about them. Anything is bad for you in high quantities. I do believe that some of the claims that soy can have harmful side effects could be true, but I also think that the amount of soy you need to consume is very high to see those side effects. However, I think some people, especially vegetarians and vegans, do eat that much soy. And the soy is so heavily processed, it really isn't much like soy anymore. Like the difference between corn and high fructose corn syrup.

[Ducati]

I did it about 3 years ago, I had higher than the average male my age but the doctor said it was normal for weightlifters and martial artists.

 

Is it that men with high testosterone become weightlifters and martial artists, or that lift weight and martial arts cause a man to produce more testosterone. Weight lifting can boost you testosterone temporally, but this doesn't guarantee that at other times you have low testosterone.

[beforewisdom]

If Flava beans were used in the quantity that soy is used in our society, I can guarantee you, we would be talking about them.

 

Are those like Fava beans, but more tasty?

 

Phytoestrogens actually block the much more powerful endogenous estrogens in your body and they block the MUCH more powerful estrogen-like pollutants in our food. Being scared of them is silly, especially since they are are in almost all plant foods.

 

60% of the worlds population is lactose intolerant and even omnis who don't care about animals love soy milk.

 

I think this is the real reason why soy beans are so controversial. 1 cup of cooked organic soy beans costs ~ 50 cents and you get all of this nutrition:

 

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4376/2

 

Soy beans are controversial because they are a competitive threat to the meat and dairy industries who can flood the media with bogus studies to scare people.

[Ducati]

Yes, flava beans are more tasty than plan old fava beans. Fava beans go well with brains. fuup fuup fuup fuup fuup.

[Fallen_Horse]

Is soy good or bad?

 

Is abortion right or wrong?

 

These questions have no 'correct' answer, there are far too many variable and far too many different situations with far too much politics on each side.

 

 

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

[beforewisdom]

Is soy good or bad?

 

Good.

 

Is abortion right or wrong?

 

These questions have no 'correct' answer,

 

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

 

Michael Pollan's aka "coward's" answer.

 

Eat food, just plants.

[seitan_man]

Maybe these xenoestrogens are why after 3 years of training I still can't lose my gut?

[Ruz]

Maybe these xenoestrogens are why after 3 years of training I still can't lose my gut?

That's my point exactly! Despite what everyone is saying I know tonnes of vegans who eat a very good diet but still have female pattern fat issues.

[beforewisdom]

Maybe these xenoestrogens are why after 3 years of training I still can't lose my gut?

 

About two years ago I lost 48 lbs I put on while being sedentary for a number of years due to multiple injuries. Two surgeries and a few years of cardio later I only lost a few of those pounds. I chalked it up to being older and always having a "slow metabolism". Then I started counting calories in a food diary via The Hacker's Diet. I lost about a pound a week for a year until all of the excess weight came off, with the exact same amount of exercise I was doing when the weight wasn't coming off.

 

I have had exercise physiologists who do research tell me that people habitually underestimate how much they eat -- even people who are experienced with counting calories.

 

There is always the possibility you are taking in more energy than you think you are taking in.

 

Unless I write my calories down and add them up on a daily basis I slide into that and weight gain.

 

Most people who are beyond being beginners with weight lifting will gain fat with muscle. It is just how most human bodies work. Most professional bodybuilders go through "bulking" cycles where they intentionally eat more, put on fat, put on muscle and walk around covered up. Then when a contest nears they start dieting down, losing *some* muscle with the fat ( also natural for most human bodies ) until they get ripped. This state is unnatural so they can only hold it for a few days. The professionals time this to coincide with their contest dates......AND....their photo shoots for the year. Then they start the cycle again, putting on fat again.

 

There is always the possibility you are pretty fit, but are being unrealistically perfectionist with your looks.

Edited October 17, 2009 by beforewisdom

[Ruz]

Really, really good points! These types of things should always be examined before trying to lay the blame for excess body fat on one specific element of your diet.

That said, I am not a beginner, and have calculated my calories on Fitday for years. I even got down to 8% BF and STILL had fat on my tummy. I have a vegan friend who experienced exactly the same problem, she was parctially anorexic but she had large stores of fat on her hips. I also had a male friend who swore soy protein gave him bitch tits LOL

It wasn't until I gave soy a miss that I lost the weight off my tummy. Now, with my soy free diet I have practically no fat on my tummy, even though I am in the middle of a bulking diet.

As discussed, there is a lot of differing ideas on soy, but speaking from personal experience, it gives me belly fat. Also, the fact that it has been "indicated" as lowering testosterone production is a big factor for me. You men have testosterone to spare, but women have VERY little, and anything which could jeopardise my limited supply is a definite no NO as far as i am concerned.

What I was talking about when I origionally started this discussion was not bodyfat in general, but accumulation of body fat in areas tradicionally associated with estrogen production. I lay the blame on soy and I dont really care what various studies have to soy about it!

[beforewisdom]

I've talked with vegan bodybuilders who use insane amounts of soy protein powder and had no problems whatsoever. Some people are allergic to soy, some aren't. Some people have thyroid issues, some don't.

 

Unless a person lives off of meat and white flour they are going to beating phytoestrogesn ( which block much more powerful estrogetns btw ) as they are in most plants.

[Zack]

I fail to see how there are xenoestrogens in soy?

[beforewisdom]

I fail to see how there are xenoestrogens in soy?

 

I think she just means phytoestrogens, which are "xenoestrogens" ( estrogens not made by your body ).