Bigbwii Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Well I think that people that don't agree with the raw lifestyle should be more sensitive to the efforts of the people that do, especially since a raw challenge is starting soon,and there's doesn't need to be any negativity floating around...raw foodists need a place where they can come to be with people of like mind and not doubted/judged or have to defend their own lifestyle in their own section. If you don't agree with the lifestyle or what's posted here then don't read the posts, there's a lot of methods that guys here use to get big that I don't agree with but I don't post in that section.... Anyway I'm done coz I got better things to do than argue about food.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odidnetne Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Well I think that people that don't agree with the raw lifestyle should be more sensitive to the efforts of the people that do, especially since a raw challenge is starting soon,and there's doesn't need to be any negativity floating around...raw foodists need a place where they can come to be with people of like mind and not doubted/judged or have to defend their own lifestyle in their own section. If you don't agree with the lifestyle or what's posted here then don't read the posts, there's a lot of methods that guys here use to get big that I don't agree with but I don't post in that section.... Anyway I'm done coz I got better things to do than argue about food.... I would have replied about 10 minutes ago, and lost my nice reply thanks to a power outage. I feel though that rawists have quite a nice chunk of the pie here, and that this negativity is an isolated incidient at best. For what percentage of the posts on the forum go here, this section has quite a nice area of open mindedness and general positivity, especially for a topic as widely debated as the raw food diet is. I wanted to say though that I didn't feel Jonathan was "judging", and that if he was, that's nothing compared to some of the other replies you get from some other people (namely meat & junk food eaters). I don't think anything got really that out of hand, we're all big boys (no pun intended), we can work out our differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I don't disagree with the lifestyle. I do disagree with the 'evidence' supporting it. I don't see why it's so important to prove why one feels good as the proofs are just advanced guesses in lack of scientific peer-reviewed research. The reason it might be good with raw food can be any of the following, none of them or anything else: 1. Compounds that are destroyed in cooking.Some compounds are obviously destroyed (or rather, changed) when one heats stuff. Some of these chemicals are poisonous and some are healthy. Some health promoting compounds in some foods are unattainable without cooking since they are inside cells that our digestive system cannot break down. Making a genaralization about all the thousands of compounds in various plant foods based on heating alone (and not reactions to oxygen, digestive chemicals, chemicals inside cells, etc.) seems overly optimistic to me. 2. Enzyme theory.It ain't proven. It ain't disproven. Most scientists are sceptical for alot of reasons. People selling books about raw foods are optimistic. Some are flat out rediculous like the one saying that enzymes enter our cells in the body untouched by the immune system. Enzymes are proteins. All other proteins get broken down to amino acids in our digestive tract and thus far noone have proven that enzymes should be any different. 3. Detox.We are detoxing all the time. If we weren't we would all be dead by the age of 2. The detox will intensify when one eats healthier but again if detox takes years or even months we wouldn't be alive. I would say that we are detoxing hard for maybe two weeks after that it's something else. 4. Addictions.This one is proven. Some things we eat trigger the pleasure system in the central nervous system. It has nothing to do with cooked/raw though. Cooked spinach trigger these system as little as raw spinach. There is simply no difference. I've quit tobacco and it's as hard as quitting the substances that trigger these reactions. It gets worse for about a week and then it gets better. No addiction (not even heroin) gets worse after a few months. 5. Feeling better.This one is tricky since feeling better actually means that certain compounds in the brain are more active and others are less active. When one eats healthier one goes from the dopamine ups and downs system to the serotinine feel good system (it's actually much more complicated than that but it's the basic principle) it obviously feels different. We don't know enough on how raw vs. cooked food affects the central nervous system to say that it's better, nor do we know enough on the cell metabolism of cells in the body to say that we work better on raw food than cooked. We do know that unrefined plant food seems to have positive effects on all theese issues though. As I said before, I'm for upping my raw food intake (I'm about 90% or so now) because I believe in it just like there are others who believe in Atkins, South beach, paleolithic, yin yang or any other way of eating that is scientifically controversic or unproven. It seems rational to me to eat more raw food even though I can't prove it to be better than whole cooked plant food. @JonathanInteresting with the environmental angle. It would be so much better if gas were more expensive and we didn't subsidize grains and meat. That way we could make fruits and veggies more affordable and we could use the environmental friendly transport system (like the railroad) that are in place in Europe already to solve this issue. Peak oil is just around the corner...Personally I'm somewhat sceptical towards overconsumption of grains and legumes for no reason other than I feel stronger when I workout if I don't over consume them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odidnetne Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 4. Addictions.This one is proven. Some things we eat trigger the pleasure system in the central nervous system. It has nothing to do with cooked/raw though. Cooked spinach trigger these system as little as raw spinach. There is simply no difference. I've quit tobacco and it's as hard as quitting the substances that trigger these reactions. It gets worse for about a week and then it gets better. No addiction (not even heroin) gets worse after a few months. I was thinking about this earlier, about how easy it is to eat just raw foods if the only cooked food you eat is from fresh whole veggies. Eating a lot of raw food wasn't as pleasurable as it as now a while back when I ate a lot of things like Granola, but now that I eat a lot of steamed veggies as my cooked food, it's easier to base the diet much more on fruits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 To everyone interested in Raw Food/Natural Hygiene/Life Science I recommend reading the website I put into my signature.It certainly answers many if not all questions concerning rawfood and the reasons to live on a fruit diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Zack,Try drinking fresh carrot juice. It is amazing for your liver. Hope you have a juicer or have a place near you that you can get it freshly juiced. Try 3 or more glasses a day. Wheatgrass is good too. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odidnetne Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Zack,Try drinking fresh carrot juice. It is amazing for your liver. Hope you have a juicer or have a place near you that you can get it freshly juiced. Try 3 or more glasses a day. Wheatgrass is good too. Good luck. He already swears by carrot juice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Oops. Sorry didn't know that. Well at least he doesn't swear AT it!! I have recently started juicing alot more again. I love it and it really cleans me out of the bad stuff. I had forgotten how good it was to be on juice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaVegan Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Are there benefits to drinking fresh juiced carrots over eating the whole carrot?I like those mini organic carrots.But it seems like I just chew them and don't swallow.I need to tell myself to swallow, not sure why they don't just go down like everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Zack,Try drinking fresh carrot juice. It is amazing for your liver. Hope you have a juicer or have a place near you that you can get it freshly juiced. Try 3 or more glasses a day. Wheatgrass is good too. Good luck. Carrot/Beet juice has been a staple for me. Delicious isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Are there benefits to drinking fresh juiced carrots over eating the whole carrot?I like those mini organic carrots.But it seems like I just chew them and don't swallow.I need to tell myself to swallow, not sure why they don't just go down like everything else. All the nutrients are more bioavailable, and absorbed into your system faster and more effeciently than if you just ate carrots. The beta-carotene is absorbed much better for example. Plus you get a concentration of enzymes and other nutrients, which in my case, is much needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Yes, yum. Carrot/beet juice. Actually, I like just about any combination. Try parsley too. That is supposed to be a great liver cleanser too. One of my favorites also is carrot/gingerroot/apple. I love juicing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Certainly helps me that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 How many glasses a day do you drink? I drink about 3 glasses of juice a day. I eat all raw until dinner and then I have a salad and a small portion of cooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Bigbwii - I do not generally read any posts in the raw food section. I briefly perused it a little while ago, and the first post that I come to is one challenging people to give up their raw food 'addiction'. I have every right to challenge this as it is wrong. Plus, raw foodist dogma permiates all sections of the this board now (one of the reasons why I am less active here now than I used to be) so I feel I also have the right to address it at it's source. Raw foodism is simply one diet. It need not to be vegan to be raw, but in the case of this board it is. It has nothing to do with ethical veganism, and is not healthier than a cooked food diet. Almost every person who is raw on here has stated that they have lost alot of weight after commencing a raw diet. That is not healthy. Almost every person has lost strength. That is not healthy either. But what bothers me the most is the almost religious dogma that seems to come with the lifestyle. A friend I have in Edinburgh who is almost completely raw and has been for 10 years, has said he has gone to raw foodist meets and been the only semi sane person there. I find it sad that there seems to be this need to try and convert everyone. It doesn't save any more lives, and efforts would be better placed in getting people to switch to cooked food vegan. Finally, encouraging people not to supplement with b12 is just dangerous. I believe that as a vegan it is necessary to supplement it. Even if it isn't necessary, it costs next to nothing to take a multivitamin, and there is no reason why not to. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbwii Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Bigbwii - I do not generally read any posts in the raw food section. I briefly perused it a little while ago, and the first post that I come to is one challenging people to give up their raw food 'addiction'. I have every right to challenge this as it is wrong. Plus, raw foodist dogma permiates all sections of the this board now (one of the reasons why I am less active here now than I used to be) so I feel I also have the right to address it at it's source. Raw foodism is simply one diet. It need not to be vegan to be raw, but in the case of this board it is. It has nothing to do with ethical veganism, and is not healthier than a cooked food diet. Almost every person who is raw on here has stated that they have lost alot of weight after commencing a raw diet. That is not healthy. Almost every person has lost strength. That is not healthy either. But what bothers me the most is the almost religious dogma that seems to come with the lifestyle. A friend I have in Edinburgh who is almost completely raw and has been for 10 years, has said he has gone to raw foodist meets and been the only semi sane person there. I find it sad that there seems to be this need to try and convert everyone. It doesn't save any more lives, and efforts would be better placed in getting people to switch to cooked food vegan. Finally, encouraging people not to supplement with b12 is just dangerous. I believe that as a vegan it is necessary to supplement it. Even if it isn't necessary, it costs next to nothing to take a multivitamin, and there is no reason why not to. Jonathan That's cool, as I've always said, I really don't care what you do, we all have our own experiences and we all have the right to make our own choices, it's so easy to use the detox symptoms as a way to deem the raw lifestyle as unhealthy, especially if your looking for a way to make your point, I'm personaly in the best shape I've ever been in and I'm feeling even better..... I can't speak for anyone else because I'm not them and they are not me and as I've always said, about 90% of raw vegans are doing it all wrong anyway, you keep doing what your doing as it is what makes you happy and I'll do the same. But as I said I really don't care what you or anyone else does, if anyone wants to go raw then go for it, it's their choice, if you don't want to go raw then that's cool too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon Posted June 23, 2007 Author Share Posted June 23, 2007 I had this thought for a while, that maybe someone who thinks they are feeling good and being healthy on a specific diet is because the previous diet they were on for such a long time has given them an overload of specific materials/nutrients which have been stored in the body, but since they have an overload of these specific ones, their diet hasn't been providing other types which they need, and so by changing their diet, they temporarly balance their materials/nutrients in their body, or atleast provide different types which would help improve things somewhat, but once it is balanced, the new diet if continued would just lopside it another way. The thing is, if your initial condition from the first diet has caused you to be extremely sick, then the longer it would take to rebalance it, and hence the longer you would be recieving different materials/nutrients which you need and so the longer you would be containing enough types of material to function correctly due to the new ones being added all the time, and so what seems to be working, could seem to be the cure for the time being.Has this type of thing been suggested anywhere? also, I noticed personally, when you go for example from one extreme to another like hot to cold.. the difference feels greater if the difference in values is larger even if both values are on one side of the scale. Also the amount of time it takes to change the values effects how the difference feels. So if you have been in hot weather for a long time, and you go to a slightly cooler weather in a day or less, the difference would have changed so quickly that you wouldn't have time to adapt to it and hence it would feel colder then it would have if you had slowly changed to it. What that has to do with health I have no idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 How many glasses a day do you drink? I drink about 3 glasses of juice a day. I eat all raw until dinner and then I have a salad and a small portion of cooked. Usually I do a liter a day, maybe 2. I haven't been doing it as much lately, but that's typically what I was doing. That's exactly how I ate too, but haven't had a cooked meal in a few weeks, don't really want one. If I do at some point, i'll eat one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belleadonna Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 It's human nature for us to want to convert others to what makes us feel good. For one it is fruitarianism, for another raw veganism, for another vegetarianism (in all its forms), etc... You get the point. But everyone is different and what works for one doesn't work for another. We need to each find our own path. I experimented with the 100% raw and it wasn't for me. That doesn't make it wrong for another. I guess that we just have to be careful about the dogmatic statements we make because diet is not an exact science and every man is entitled to and responsible for his/her own decisions. For what its worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 @Jonathan and Bigbwii:First of all I want to say that – although your points of view differ a lot – the way you treat eachother is what makes this forum unique.We (this forum) need many different opinions and concepts. Of course everybody is sure that his/her way of life (or diet) is the best one – otherwise he/she hopefully is able to change it. But since diet is just one (although important) part of life this forum is about a lot more aspects of bb&f.It makes me sad if an important and experienced member states to visit the forum less often because it is shifting towards rawfoodism. I think it is a fact that many members (including myself) experience with rawfood and made their experiences (good or bad). Because of this, "rawfood-answers" are given in other sections, too. To me rawfood is not a dogma. But I am convinced that the more "natural" my diet is, the better it is for me. And when someone askes my answer will reflect my experience. @Jonathan: Without responding on all your statements I want to say one thing: A Life Scientist would disagree to what you said. As always in life there are many different opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I had this thought for a while, that maybe someone who thinks they are feeling good and being healthy on a specific diet is because the previous diet they were on for such a long time has given them an overload of specific materials/nutrients which have been stored in the body, but since they have an overload of these specific ones, their diet hasn't been providing other types which they need, and so by changing their diet, they temporarly balance their materials/nutrients in their body, or atleast provide different types which would help improve things somewhat, but once it is balanced, the new diet if continued would just lopside it another way. The thing is, if your initial condition from the first diet has caused you to be extremely sick, then the longer it would take to rebalance it, and hence the longer you would be recieving different materials/nutrients which you need and so the longer you would be containing enough types of material to function correctly due to the new ones being added all the time, and so what seems to be working, could seem to be the cure for the time being.Has this type of thing been suggested anywhere? also, I noticed personally, when you go for example from one extreme to another like hot to cold.. the difference feels greater if the difference in values is larger even if both values are on one side of the scale. Also the amount of time it takes to change the values effects how the difference feels. So if you have been in hot weather for a long time, and you go to a slightly cooler weather in a day or less, the difference would have changed so quickly that you wouldn't have time to adapt to it and hence it would feel colder then it would have if you had slowly changed to it. What that has to do with health I have no idea hmm i found this thought interesting, and i was wondering something similar as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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