compassionategirl

my responses are in blue

This isnt an argument. It is a discussion, and we have a lot of thought provoking discussions here. No offence taken. Nobody is perfect, and only a fool would claim to be. You will find many instances of "imperfection" if you look hard enough, and sometimes it isnt even that hard. Yes, all we can do is the best we can. So we need to ask ourselves, in quite, private moments, are we really doing the best we can? And you are right, all I can do is educate/inform you on the horrors of the dairy industry in your current country. I have tried to do that. Now the decision is yours. You speak of humbleness, so let me ask you: How is it humble to eat higher up on the food chain, when such food choices have detrimental impacts on animals, the environment and the starving masses? And what about self-relfection/self-honesty? One reason why I have been so persistent with you is your claim of revering cows. I think that is wonderful. But if you really revere cows, why do you still support their abuse in the country that you currently reside in? How about looking into your heart and ascertaining the reasons? If you are still unsure about the nature or extent of this abuse, I invite you to research it for yourself. The literature and the footage on the dairy industry is abundant - and it isnt all just from PETA. There is no question about the over exploitation of cows in the American dairy industry.It has been argued by researchers, journalists and commentators in this field that if you are concerned with the suffering of cows, but wont go vegan, it would make more of an impact to give up dairy than to give up meat because animals used for dairy suffer longer, and live a longer miserable life. See Jim Mason and Peter Singer, Animal Factories. See also www.cowsarecool.com www.milksucks.com And by the way, your post has conveniently side stepped the question about what you would do if you saw a kitten kicker? Would you judge and interfere to stop the abuse? Or would you keep walking, comforting yourself by saying "I am not perfect either so I must be humble and let the man continue in his animal abuse." If you intervened to stop the torture, would that make you "NOT HUMBLE"? This is a forum that is meant, in part, to educate and inform people about the plight of animals used for meat, dairy and eggs. That is our position and that is our message here. If you feel that by encouraging people to go nothing short of vegan we are being elitist or somehow not "humble," then you plainly and simply dont appreciate the full magnitude of the suffering that animals in this country endure in the service of dairy (and eggs and meat); nor do you appreciate the magnitude of the detrimental environmental impacts of animal produce consumption; nor the extent to which eating higher up on the food chain contributes significantly to world hunger and the starvation of children. For all these reasons - health, environment, human rights - many of us our vegan. No, vegans are not perfect; no, they cant eliminate all harm and suffering; but we can eliminate a lot of harm by going vegan, and if we are living in a country like the United States where the vegan choices are copious, we can do so easily. The decision to maintain or withdraw your support for a diet that has such far reaching repercussisons is yours. But dont delude yourself with self-serving notions of "freedom of choice". Freedom of choice, in order to be ethical, has to be tempered with an obligation not to cause harm or suffering to those that CANT DEFEND THEMSELVES againt our greed, self-indulgence, etc etc. There is nothing more than can be said.

Hmm, I originally typed a very different response but changed my mind thinking that maybe I should make more of an effort to try and understand where you are coming from with this vitriol you have for direct action. Admittedly, it isnt easy. We get that you have contempt for direct action that seeks to rescue suffering and tortured animals by breaking into labs and mink farms to liberate them, even where there are no injuries caused to humans and animals as a result of the ALF raid (which is the Creedo of ALF by the way - not to cause any injuries to animals, human and non). We get, in other words, that you despise activists that actually liberate animals from their torture and suffering by breaking into private property (or should I say into private torture chambers). My question to you is: Do you have as much contempt for the person that is causing the animal suffering which compelled the ALF raid in the first place? In other words, to use an example, do you have as much contempt for the mink farmer as you appear to have for the mink rescuer/liberator? And by the way, what the FBI thinks should hardly be our moral compass. The FBI has also described Julia Butterfly Hill's action of living on a tree for two years to save it and the surrounding rainforrest as terrorist in nature. How you can feel contempt for those who actually rescue animals (and yes, in doing so, break in to labs and fur farms, etc) is beyond me. I find it hard to believe that anybody who cared about the immediate and very real suffering of these animals could have contempt for their rescuers in circumstances where the rescuers' only crime is the violation of private property rights (obviously I am not talking about Eric here, in light of Finn's post, but ALF actions more generally that meets that criteria). I am not saying that all ethical vegans agree with direct action, but very few I would say actually loathe the animal rescuers like you clearly do, simply for the reason that they have broken some laws in order to gain access to these victims that suffer behind the closed and locked doors of private torture chambers. Most can at least sympathize and understand the overwhelming magnitude of the suffering that motivates and pushes people to take such direct action. SO anyway to repeat the question: Do you harbour as much contempt for, say, the mink farmer/torturer as you do for the mink liberator? Do you think the mink farmer should also "rot in jail" to use your words? Or do you better relate to the mink farmer/torturer than you do the mink liberater?

Hey Toph, You and me both (are goin back to the gym after a long hiatus!).] Cheers to that.

Lezly to the rescue! I was gonna tell you Vegangirl to ask Lezly - one of our very best vegan cooks. She also has a stuffed mushroom recipe posted on vegan recipes, so be sure to check it out. Also, maybe you can make some of the vegan dishes you see here. truly cullinary pornography, and get prepared to drool!: www.attilahildmann.com scroll down for recipes after you lick on english I say for sure make some of the Bloody Harry Sandwiches which are so good, and all the other stuff. Yum!!!!!!!!!!!

exactly

hey Lez! Yup, JAPAN IS ABOUT TO TAKE OVER THE WHALING COMMISSION and so this is truly urgent now. Japan has bribed some countries to join just to vote in favour of lifting the moratorium. It is very close and the whales are in GRAVE and immediate danger of suffering and murder. Sea Shepherd is one of whales' most fiercely loyal allies on the sees. Thanks for doing whatever you can to support them!

Cant wait to visit Farm Sanctuary.

hey Wayne, Thanks for your candor. Welcome to the board. My only advice is veganism neednt be expensive - many of the bodybuilders here dont supplement. They just eat good nutritious foods! And look at what you can achieve without supporting cruelty to animals: viewtopic.php?p=34092#34092 So I encourage you to consider pushing your ethical disdain for meat to its logical conclusion and give up eating fish (which DO suffer as they suffocate and die), dairy (which directly supports the cruel and heart wrenching veal industry) and eggs (an industry which has no use for male chicks and discards them to typically suffocate to death in large plastic bags, among other animal abuses) Oh ya, one more thing about eggs - the contents of an egg is the MENSTRUAL WASTE of a hen. Eeewww!!! Welcome to the forum. I am sure the guys will help you out with your questions soon. Stick around!

Those are some of the best pics of you ever. What a POSTER CHILD you are for vegan muscle holy crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! smokin and shredded, is how I would descibe your physique at the moment!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Sea Shepherds need our help URGENTLY to defeat the japanese outlaw whaling fleet. Please read, and post elsewhere to raise support for this endeavour, financial and otherwise. And be sure to read what is in red text in two different places further down: A Sea Shepherd Call for Assistance for the Whales This is the year that we can, and we must stop the illegal activities of the Japanese whaling fleet. The Japanese whalers have targeted over a thousand whales to be cruelly slaughtered beginning December of 2006. Included in that number will be 50 endangered Humpbacks and 50 endangered Fin whales. The Japanese are poised to take control of the International Whaling Commission and poised to escalate the slaughter of whales to levels we have not seen in decades. They harpoon the whales with grenades but often times the explosion doesnt kill the whales instantly. Instead, destroying internal organs and bleeding, the whales thrash about in unspeakable pain for up to 20 minutes before they succumb to their barbaric death. I have spent my entire life protecting and defending the great whales. I am ready to take whatever risks are needed to intervene against the Japanese whalers. We must shut them down. We have the experience and the skills to shut them down. We now just need the financing to do so. This means we need money. We need to raise three million dollars and we need to raise over two million within the next six months. We need to purchase a faster long range ship and we need to send it down along with the Farley Mowat and a dedicated and courageous crew to confront the killers in one of the most remote and hostile environments on Earth - the Antarctic Whale Sanctuary. We have one ship. We need a faster ship. We have a helicopter. We have inflatable boats. We need fuel, lots of fuel and it is more expensive than ever. We have demonstrated that we can shut down illegal whaling operations without injuring whalers and our track record is unblemished. We have never caused a single injury to any person since Sea Shepherd was founded in 1977. But we have saved whales - thousands of whales. Now we need to stop the outlaw Japanese whaling fleet from killing a thousand whales this year. This is an urgent appeal for funding. Your contribution will be earmarked exclusively for the purchase and operation of the ship we need to do this job. Not a penny will go to administration, fund-raising or other issues. We need people to sponsor a whale for $3,000 or tow people to sponsor a whale for $1500 each or three people to sponsor a whale for $1,000 each or six people to sponsor a whale for $500 each or 30 people to get together to sponsor a whale for $100 each. The whales need our help and we need you to help us to defend them. Please sponsor a whale today and send us the means to reach the whalers so that we can put an end to the incredible slaughter of these magnificent, intelligent and awesome beings. You can send a donation to Sea Shepherd P.O.Box 2616 Friday Harbor, Wa 98250 Call 360-370-5650 for further information And we need volunteers to crew the ship. We need navigators, engineers, mechanics, electricians, welders, helicopter pilots,, small boat operators, cooks, computer experts, medics, seafarers and just good old dedicated inexperienced volunteers willing to learn, work hard and take the risks needed to send a ship down to save the whales. We also have need for material donations, a list of which can be found on the Sea Shepherd website at www.seashepherd.org Thank-you Captain Paul Watson Founder and President of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (1977- Co-Founder - The Greenpeace Foundation (1972) Co-Founder - Greenpeace International (1979) Director of the Sierra Club USA (2003-2006) Director - The Farley Mowat Institute Director - www.harpseals.org _________________

So let me get this straight, you think that just by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, you are more important/superior to a non-human animal? That your species makes you automatically more important than a non human animal? **hmm maybe I should break this post off as this is a whole other debate*** Sorry for the slow response, I went camping for the weekend and was blissfully away from all forms of technology until today... Anyway. I realize this is a drastically different position than yours, but YES, what I am saying is that by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, I am more important than a non-human animal. I think "specieism" is a load of crap. NOW, before you go off in a rage, understand that does not put me in oppostion to animal rights or animal welfare. I think as the most developed species on the planet we have an obligation to care for our world. I don't believe we have a right to harm those who cannot protect themselves from our greed, technology, etc. In only the most dire of circumstances would I be willing to kill for my own survival, and I doubt that such circumstances (whatever they would be) will ever arrive. Not sure what else to say...didn't read through the whole post so I can't quite remember what the original context of my statement was. I'll go back and re-read, and edit if need be. I agree with most of what you said - too lazy for quotes, but my difficulty with your position that just by virtue of being homp sapien, that that homo sapien is more important than a non human animal can be illustrated in the following example. (It is the only one I could think of off the top of my head): What follows from that then is that the life of people like Osama Bin Laden, Charles Manson, etc. are more important than non human animals. I am definitely not comfortable with that? To use the typical burning house example, if I had the choice between Bin Laden and a my pet cat, or any cat, i would rescue the cat. So I dont think that Bin laden's life should be treated as more important than the cat's just because he is human and the cat isnt. SO there has to be something more than just "homo sapienness" or something different than your species that is germane. In my scenario, the cat is innocent and bin laden isnt, so I would save the cat (and there are other reasons for my choice too but let's leave that aside for now). Should Bin Laden get priority consideration over the cat just because he belongs to the homo sapien race? PS. No worries about the delay in responding. I MAY not be online for a while again. Lots of exams... re 'speciesm is a load of crap' - that is a whole other debate, and it may even be crappy indeed, but for reasons that you may not have had in mind. We'll leave that for another thread and another week... By the way, the purpose of me discussing this with you is not to come to the "right answer" or sway your views. I find these debates helpful in clarifying my own position on these very thorny issues, and perhaps you will as well.

Excellent point Liz. I think you are the only one on this thread that didnt lose sight about what is in the best interests of the animals, and what the animals would want! That simple fact has been overlooked throughout this entire thread, so thanks for bringing it back to focus!!!

Well, our animal friends appreciate that very much. Welcome.

Crashnburn, Just because something cant be practiced with absolutism or perfection that doesnt mean it shouldnt be practiced at all. And there are arguments to be made that can counter your arguemnts above (which IMO are valid by the way). If you create a demand for VEG options at non-veg restaurants or grocery stores, then economics dictates that supply will increase to meet the demand, and more mainstream places, rather than 'specialty' places, will carry vegan items. This is a good thing. So the "answer" to your particular example is not so clear cut. What is clear cut though, my friend, is that your ova lacto vegetarianism in America is supporting the ruthless and unkind treatment of animals which you claim to revere, unless you are buying your dairy items from the kind of farm Will described in the vegan elitism thread. You keep accusing vegans of JUDGING other ppl, bla bla bla and its getting old. People responded to you in great detail in the vegan elitism thread, and explained to you what the deal was, yet you chose to ignore them, or accuse them of "bashing you" and you still keep griping about how we vegans JUDGE others bla bla bla. I am not about to reiterate what was said there, but I will repost here what I posted there in my last post since you conveniently seem to be missing that thread: "Crashnburn, ...And by the way, telling us to respect that action or activity of eating meat, especially factory farmed meat, is like me telling you to respect somebody else's action of physically harming another animal, human or non. Since when does freedom of choice include the moral right to cause suffering to other sentient and innocent beings? If you were walking down the street and saw somebody violently kicking a helpless kitten, would you judge that as "wrong" or "unethical" and interfere, or would you say "Well, buddy, that is your choice. Do the best you can. To each his own!", and merrily resume your walk, proud that you RESPECTED HIS "CHOICE"? And I notice also that you havent responded to my question posed above, and I would really appreciate one: If you respect and revere cows, like you say, then that is all the more reason to boycott American dairy, unless you find the kind of farm that Will mentioned. What is your response to this?"

VM: I couldnt break that post to start a new thread - have no clue how to do it. SO if you could just please respond in this thread, that will be fine. I dont care if its off topic or if constitutes a 'hijacking.' This is the post I am talking about: ____________________________________________________________ So let me get this straight, you think that just by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, you are more important/superior to a non-human animal? That your species makes you automatically more important than a non human animal? **hmm maybe I should break this post off as this is a whole other debate***

Chris, pm me and I'll give you all the info you need. We can all hook up for vegan lunch if you want.

huh? Grandstanding? Grandstanding: "To behave ostentatiously in an attempt to impress onlookers." ya, that is what Eric is looking to do - impress onlookers. Next thing I know I am going to be reading that he is being "pretentious". Actually, no. I dont think the goal is to gain sympathy from the prison (the sympathy part, and more than that, support, was expected from his fellow ethical vegans). The goal is to compel the prison system to recognize and acknowledge that ethical veganism isnt flippant, whimsical, and the like, and that denying an ethical vegan vegan food is as much of a constitutional and human rights violation as is giving a devout Hindu prisoner only food containing beef, or giving you ony food that contains the cooked remains of your pets and other "companion" animals. He has chosen to state that message as powerfully and as seriously as possible under the circumstances, which is appropriate since we are talking about a serious human rights violation. It is no joke, and no small matter, and that is what his "extreme" actions are trying to convey. It is truly disheartening that this is being viewed as "grandstanding" among some vegans.

I don't know about you but I don't see non-vegan food as food' date=' only bits of other animals, and stuff that comes from them.[/color'] Are you suggesting that we should support the people who oppress this guy because "a dead vegan isn't very useful"? Jonathan Exactly. if you wouldnt kill and eat your cats, and I assume you wouldnt, then why are other animals food in instances like Eric's situation? because you grew up in a society that said so? What if you got busted in China, imprisoned, and the Chinese prison authorities killed and cooked your cats and forced you to eat them or starve? We all know that in some Asian countries, eating cats and dogs is about as "normal" as is eating pigs and chickens. Would you feel in that case that your fundamental human right was being violated? And what makes it even more ridiculous is that the prison HAS vegan food, as you note yourself VM!!!!!! It isnt like every piece of food in the prison is slab of meat, as you note. They could very easily give him vegan food, because they have it. Their withholding of it is malicious and sadistic. telling us that a dead vegan isnt useful is only stating the obvious and misses the point. This isnt a small, insignificant battle that Eric has chosen to wage. It involves a vegan's constitutional and human right to be fed in a manner that doesnt violate who they are. "A dead vegan may not be useful after he is dead," but the self-sacrifice/death of one may get the ball rolling in effecting change to a fundamentally unjust system. I for one couldnt be that selfless. I would buy the vegan food (assuming I had the luxury of being able to afford doing so on a daily basis!) and suck it up, rather than going on what is tantamount to a hunger strike in protest of the indignity and injustice that Eric is being forced to endure. Hence the respect and the compassion for Eric.

So let me get this straight, you think that just by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, you are more important/superior to a non-human animal? That your species is the sole factor that makes you automatically more important than a non human animal? **hmm maybe I should break this post off as this is a whole other debate***

1. If he buys the vegan food he wouldnt be protesting. It is his hunger strike (which is basically what this is now) that is his protest, and is a much more powerful one that just sitting in your jail cell complaining with a full stomach that they arent giving you vegan food. 2. He did get a hearing, and as for as I know, the judge refused to accept the notion that his veganism should be respected by the prison authorities; refused to accept the argument that the prion's failure to provide him with adequate food was a vioaltion of bis constitutional or human right. It isnt a matter of simply getting a good attorney that will get a judge to interpret the law.... Here, both Eric and the attorney are up against people that have a vested interest in the status quo. I dont think the judge looks too kindly on activists for earth or aniimal lib. Judges are supposed to interpret and apply the law fairly, yes, but they are human in the end and are not above prejudice, racism, etc as we have seen countless times. 3. re the law should change. Yes I agree, and so does Eric, and that is what Eric's protest/hunger strike is all about. he is sacrificing himself to change the system. An endeavour that is certainly not insignificant and not undeserving of our "energy", as was mentioned by somebody else. YOu said that it may take a great sacrifice like somebody enduring a hunger strike, and that is exactly what Eric is doing. Trying to change the law and the system by refusing to "buy" his vegan food - in this case, this is tantamount to going on a hunger strike. So it sounds Finn, like the person you agree with is Eric. Editted to add: Uh, okay, guess not then.

If that's what is going on that changes everything. If he chose not to eat the vegan food that was available to him, then I don't feel so bad for him Will, I am shocked that you could say that, because of reasons that I explained in my response to Sinister above. There is a bigger picture here, one of basic human rights, and that is what this man is fighting for.

blue maybe if this was the "stuck on an island with nothing else to eat" scenario, then it would be stupid to choose to starve (putting all the speciest arguments aside). But here, there are significant implications at stake. Society, and in this case the prison system, needs to understand that ethical veganism isnt a "whim", and that denying an ethical vegan food that is edible to him is as much a violation of his basic human rights as is providing a Jewish prisoner only with food containing pork. Of course, I dont expect you to get it since your earlier description of veganism (i.e. "whim", "vacation resort", etc.) precisely reflects the kind of attitude among law enforcement and prison authorities that Eric is takin a stand against. No, he is asserting his basic human rights (and according to his lawyer, his constitutional rights). That is hardly ridiculous. And like I said above, maybe because of him and people like him, future vegan and environmental activists that end up in jail may not have to endure the indignity that is being forced upon Eric. Thank goodness for people like Eric, who are willing to stand up against injustice. It is a shame that there arent more people like him in the world. Yet your reaction to a human being that is sacrificing himself for justice, human rights, and the greater good is one of callous indifference and smug criticism? And, by the way, the prison's and the sherrif's intentional and malicious withholding of adequate food from Eric (to which you very tellingly dont object) reflects the kind of conduct that would be expected from a bunch of sociopathic sadists.

Thank-you to the compassionate people here that have tried to help Eric. You truly are compassionate and caring people. If only there were more of you. Please keep the emails and calls coming. Sinister: re "its his own fault if he dies, i dont feel sorry for him one bit, prison isnt a vacation resort, jails shouldnt have to cater to crimnals whims" - truly one of the most ignorant and callous sentiments I have ever read here on VB&F, and I have read many. Loveliberate, I agree with every single word in your informed response to Sinister's ignorance of Eric's situation. I guess, Sinister, it is his own fault too that he is being denied medical attention? The prisons' and the govnt's hands, if Eric dies, are totally clean, right? What part of "basic human rights" dont you get? Veganism to some people isnt just something they do at vacation resorts. I find your trivialization of people's ethical beliefs like that highly offensive. Is that what your veganism is to you? A "whim". Newsflash: It isnt a "whim" to most ethical vegans, but a fundamental conviction. Will: I thought the same thing. If it is a matter of cost then I will send the "freakin fifty cents" a day for some rice and beans for this guy!!! But it isnt that the prison cant accomodate Eric's needs, it is because they dont want to. Why? Because Eric has dared to challenge the status quo of environmental and animal exploitation and they have contempt for him because of that. At least that is my impression of it. Eric deserves our respect, not our condemnation or vitriol. How pathetic that there are sentiments on this thread to the contrary.

No problem guys. And a reminder to everybody else today, please call if you can, or if you cant, send an email and mark it urgent. The man is sticking to his vegan ethics, but doing so is killing him because ppl are ass*****. I dont know what I would do if this was happening to my loved one: i think i would go in with guns blazing! mother f******!!!! They cant give the poor man some beans and rice? vegan protein shakes as the prison doc recommended? PPl can be so evil.