Where do I get my protein?

[RAINRA]

my bad man... really my bad.

[veggieprincess]

Protein does not build muscle you do. I think the focus should be less on protein and more on all around nutrition and workout.

 

Sorry, but this just isn't a true statement for most people that have applied it.

 

I have watched myself shrink and lose my shoulder caps when I cut back on protein. My clients have noticed the same thing. There are people on this board who cut back on protein and lost their muscle and when they added in higher protein, they got their muscle back.

 

There are people building good muscle on less protein than most bodybuilders consume... like Zack... but they are more patient than most people... and as I've pointed out... he's 12 years old so it's a bit different

 

It just seems that people go Vegan and want to reinvent the wheel on tried and true principles that work.

 

You say that bodybuilders are obsessed with their protein intake.... and I challenge that comment by saying that many Vegans seem obsessed with trying to convince us that muscle can be built without focusing on protein. But when push comes to shove, the people who are showing us their results... the people with admirable physiques... most of them have got there by increasing their protein intake. So we can listen to the THEORIES of focusing on amino acids as opposed to the foods with high protein... but the ones who are getting their gram protein count higher are building more muscle and faster than those who aren't doing that.

[Im Your Man]

So we can listen to the THEORIES of focusing on amino acids as opposed to the foods with high protein... but the ones who are getting their gram protein count higher are building more muscle and faster than those who aren't doing that.

Scientific study please ? I don't know where is VeganMaster these days, but he was posting studies here a while ago about the efficiency of muscle building from a high carb diet with low fat and moderate proteins (10-15%).

http://veganmaster.blogspot.com/

[ralst]

Most sources within the heavy training community agree that a good starting place is one gram of protein per pound of bodyweight per day, with the rest of the diet making up 2500-5000 calories, depending on training requirements and body composition. Although these numbers produce much eyebrow-raising and cautionary statement-issuing from the registered dietetics people, it is a fact that there numbers work well for the vast majority of trainees, and have done so for decades.

 

From Starting Strength, by Mark Rippetoe. This isn't proof. It's not a scientific study at all. It's just a summarized observation from one of the most knowledgeable persons on the planet on the subject of getting trainees strong and big. That's enough for me. I have yet to see a scientific study that's added pounds to my squat; Rippetoe's books have done that. Keep in mind these are not weighty issues of right vs. wrong, or even about what is most healthy in the long run - it's purely about the results, meaning more muscle and more strength, and I share Rippetoe's opinion that more protein = more results.

 

Building lots of muscle has some pretty simple requirements: lifting heavy weights while eating enough protein AND food in general to generate a caloric surplus. General nutrition, while important for health reasons, is largely irrelevant to getting big and strong. Pizza, beer, and fast food is, sadly, the bulk of many very strong people's diets. I don't recommend that, but as long as it fulfills the simple requirements and the person is training hard, it is more than enough to build lots of muscle and strength.

 

Veggieprincess, correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm sure you know more about this than I do, but here are my thoughts:

 

As Rainra mentioned, there's a lot of focus in the bodybuilding community on protein. For me personally, I've generally cared less about protein and more about calorie count - when I'm taking in 5,000 calories a day, unless I ate like crap I'm pretty likely to get at least 200 grams of protein, if not more. And I see results from that, as far as adding muscle and adding weight to the bar. BUT I also get fat - most bodybuilders, who probably put more focus into how they look than I do, don't want to get fat. So they focus on getting the maximum amount of protein with the minimal amount of calories necessary to put on lean mass.

 

I've got a powerlifting competition in a week and a half. I need to weigh 242 for that. A month ago my bodyweight was around 255. And in April I have a strongman competition where I'll need to weigh 231. So, now that I am forced to care about my bodyweight, I am absolutely focusing on the protein. It's entirely anecdotal, but so far I've been able to drop the calories, by means of replacing crap like cake and potato chips with tofu and other protein sources, and drop body weight while still making gains in the gym.

 

That backs up personally what Rippetoe, Veggieprincess, and many many others have been saying all along. Protein is important. Lots of protein is good. Like RobertSupreme already said, a lot of this nutrition and training stuff is about finding what works for you. If low-protein works within the confines of your goals, as it seems to be doing for Rainra, then that's great. But if, unlike Rainra, your goal is to build lots of mass - a typical bodybuilder's or general weight-trainer's goal - then you're almost certainly best served by starting your learning process with what other people have very successfully done before you. And for diet, that means making sure to get lots of protein. If you figure it out, by trying for yourself, that you don't need lots of protein, then great. Some people honestly don't. Some Olympic athletes eat like crap. But for the rest of us, it takes a little more.

[VeganEssentials]

So we can listen to the THEORIES of focusing on amino acids as opposed to the foods with high protein... but the ones who are getting their gram protein count higher are building more muscle and faster than those who aren't doing that.

Scientific study please ? I don't know where is VeganMaster these days, but he was posting studies here a while ago about the efficiency of muscle building from a high carb diet with low fat and moderate proteins (10-15%).

http://veganmaster.blogspot.com/

 

Unfortunately, we never got to see any subjects that Veganmaster may have referred to, so his cited studies aren't any more credible than anything else (rather, if you agree with his theories, it's because you WANT to believe in them, not so much that they've been proven ) I could go online right now and find someone's study that "proves" the world is flat, but that doesn't make it true, of course. And, I hate to say it, but you have a tendency to only want to believe the studies that are in line with your opinions, so does anyone REALLY need to post anything as you'll disregard it anyway?

 

I agree with VP - those who are largest are the ones who are most protein-obsessed, and that's been the case for a long time. I've yet to meet anyone with a large and impressive physique who has truthfully been able to say that they build a great body on low protein diets. This doesn't mean you can't build a decent physique on a low-protein diet, but if you're interested in getting big beyond the realm of the size of most people, then you're almost certainly not going to do it on 50g of protein/day unless your body is an absolute master of perfection in nutrient processing.

 

I personally don't notice a huge difference in gaining lean mass when I go from, say, 25% protein to 35+%, but for some, that may make a huge difference in gains. As I say often, we aren't all the same, and some people do simply seem to make better gains on more protien. There's no set rule of the human body where a set percentage is ideal for everyone (if that were the case, life would be a whole lot easier), so while I can do well on moderate protein, some may find that a higher level is necessary for optimal progress. That's not to say that they may not still make SOME progress on lower protein, but if you're busting yourself in the gym all the time and working hard at trying to get larger, if adding another 50g/day of protein could make the difference of a few extra lbs. of muscle at the end of the year, why not? So long as it's in tune with your mission, there's no reason not to, especially if it speeds progress and can get you to your end goal more quickly.

 

I also agree with the statement of too many vegans trying to reinvent the wheel in regard to protein. I hate to say it, but I have not seen one big vegan who has built their physique on a mere 10-15% protein/day for their total calories. If I saw a few people who did accomplish something in such a way, I'd give it credit, but so far, the theories of people building plenty of lean mass on low protein diets are only theories and nothing more. Also, any cited studies are where decent lean mass was gained on subjects doing low-protein diets are guaranteed to be on those who are starting out untrained, which has absolutely NO application to anyone who has been training for a few years. Heck, someone with no training experience can eat more calories and build a better body just doing push-ups, pull-ups and pistol squats, but there comes a point where you're no longer a beginner and such things aren't able to be compared. I get frustrated when people like to quote citations that back their theories when they are referring to a control group who is completely different from those who have experience, then claim that it works for both beginners and advanced trainees, as it's total rubbish to even think that something is that broad-sweeping across all levels. I don't know if so many vegans seem intent on disproving the importance of protein as they still equate it to animal protein, but does it REALLY further veganism or bodybuilding in any way to keep going with this same argument which nobody has managed to prove well enough to be accepted?

 

It doesn't matter if you're eating 600g/day of protein if you're not training properly and getting plenty of rest. Protein doesn't build muscle on it's own - it's just one part of the whole equation which makes one larger and stronger. If you're lifting with such low intensity that you can carry on a conversation while you're doing your sets, then I don't care how much protein you eat, you're not going to get squat out of it. However, those that train optimally for their bodies and get adequate rest may or may not find as great a difference from an increased protein intake, as again, everyone is different and making broad generalizations as to what "is best" is only for those who want to feel important or prove something to the opposition. The human animal is far too varied from person to person to make general claims about "best" diet or training for everyone, so when I hear such things, I'm immediately turned off to it because nobody can EVER prove that there's one best way for everyone, period.

 

In the end, when I see an advanced lifter (vegan or not) who has been able to add 50+ lbs. of lean mass to their bodies on a strict long-term low-protein diet, I'll give it more credit. Until then, we can keep talking about these phantom lifters who supposedly made great gains on low-protein diets, but somehow, they never seem to materialize yet they seem to get constant mention by the anti-protein crowd. Let's be realistic - those who are largest and strongest claim high protein to be important to their development, so what can you say to prove them wrong when real-life experience has dictated otherwise? We can quote studies until the cows come home, but I'll take reality over hypothesis and control groups any day. It's a lot more believable when I can see the results instead of hearing 2nd hand citations from those who only seek to further their own agenda because they feel they have something to prove.

[RAINRA]

I agree with all of you you all have valid points. My focus was basically this:

 

People talk about protein like it is magic pixie dust. Sprinkle a little on your toast and your muscles grow.

 

As some of you understand there are many elements to building muscle not just protein so that is what I am stating not that you can't eat all the protein you want. Just don't dwell on it like it like it is the most amazing thing in the world because there are many elements to building muscle as I stated above. I dare anyone here to "not workout " and prove to me they can get like Arnold? Go for it. If you can I will take my words back. Again protein does not build muscle you do by forcing stress on it and then protein is just a piece that the body uses to fix it in simple terms.

 

Do you need protein to build muscle absolutely. Do you need pounds and pounds of extra protein supplements ... not really.

 

Can you eat more nuts, legumes and seeds yeah of course. Is there protein pretty much in all foods ... with out a doubt. Could you eat 250 grams of protein just on foods alone... you bet ya! Whole foods is what I am aiming at not just isolated protein powders.

 

Do bigger people need more protein to keep from eating your own muscle ... well possibly but I think the calories is the issue based on eating a variety of foods and is much more important. See you only loose muscle by your body degeneration not working it or converting it to energy by overworking it and not feeding the body with fuel. Breaking down muscle is not the bodies best way of taking fuel, "glucose" is the main source of energy in the body so if you run out of glucose then guess it will go for the fat and then the muscle or both. So if your loosing muscle is because your not working them out or your not consuming enough calories. Example look at short distance runners vs long distance runners. Short keep a huge amount of muscle. Long distance loose calories and start consuming their own muscle. I don't need science to prove it just look at them.

 

Anyway I think we all have our philosophies and I am not here to make you change your mind but just to think outside the box a little and focus on more than just protein.

 

Again these are my opinions but I don't expect that you have to agree with me. My thoughts, my ideas not fact.

 

[el_flaco]

think outside the box a little and focus on more than just protein.

My experience with bodybuilders is that they are obsessed with all aspects of diet.

 

In fact one of the few things they agree upon is that you need sufficient protein. That could be why it is one of the first pieces of advice given to wannabe bodybuilders. Because it isn't in dispute.

[RAINRA]

wanna be?

I appreciate your opinion. thanks for commenting

 

anyway I still agree with Tim on protein.

[supernoob]

I have always thought that to build muscle you need

 

water

protein

train to failure

mulit and vit C

 

just the basics, your muscle is like a sand castle

 

there is always something eating away at it, and using the items above, you can build the muscle back up and stay ahead of the erosion process...

[RAINRA]

check my profile if you doubt. Not extra protein and I am building muscle... To many myths out there. This is not about being a pro or not. The pure science of muscle is push your muscles eat a variety of food and they will grow. That is it.

But I think there will be doubters out there. That is there is their loss. If you like extra protein for energy or you feel a faster recovery on it that is a different case I just say in order to build muscle you eat a variety of whole foods and work you butt off and your muscle will grow. Diet is the key and so is pushing your muscle.

[Im Your Man]

babies are bodybuilders but breast milk is only 6% protein, just like fruits.

 

"The compared anatomy shows us that man in every way is like the frugivorous animals (...)''

 

George Cuvier (1769-1832)

 

http://www.euroveg.eu/evu/english/news/news962/omnivore.html

[VeganEssentials]

I have always thought that to build muscle you need

 

water

protein

train to failure

mulit and vit C

 

just the basics, your muscle is like a sand castle

 

there is always something eating away at it, and using the items above, you can build the muscle back up and stay ahead of the erosion process...

 

Water, yes, but that's required regardless and I've built decent mass in the past without taking in tons of excess water beyond about 80 oz./day.

 

Protein, to some degree, yes, but everyone's different as to what they "need" for optimal growth. Some people can gain on lower protein, others swear that they require a high protein diet for better muscle growth. Nobody can put a number on what is best for everyone - it might be 50g/day to be enough for one person's goal of mass building on a hard training program (with adequate nutrition), others may find that 200+g/day is better.

 

Sufficient caloric intake beyond what your body expends during that day, yes. If you don't eat more calories than your body expends, it won't make any difference in building mass because it just won't be possible, even if you ate a boatload of protein. Here's a simple example:

 

- Lifter X needs 3000 cal./day or more to exceed their daily expenditure for calories burned. That person consumes a whopping 300g of protein, but not a lot of other foods, and only ends up at 2600 cal. for the day's intake. Regardless of protein intake, it won't magically make one larger if you're not consuming beyond what your body requires for it's base level just to get by. That same person would have potential to gain if they ate half as much protein but increased their calories by an amount to go beyond what their body is using for regular movement/functions. So, even with massive protein amounts, if you don't keep a sound balance and exceed your daily caloric expenditure levels, you won't see results.

 

Train to failure, not necessarily. My best gains were done on close-to-failure training, but I rarely trained to failure. Like protein intake, everyone is different, so some people find that training to failure is best, others can train to near failure and find it works better.

 

Multi and Vit. C, well, vitamins and minerals are essential, but not always needed through added intake of supplements depending on diet. If you eat processed junk as the basis for your meals, taking a multi and possibly other individual vitamins or minerals is a good idea. If you're eating a broad spectrum of whole foods with plenty of fruits and veggies, it's not so necessary.

 

There's plenty of debate here as to whether or not higher protein diets are essential. I don't know why it keeps being discussed, because as I'm always quick to say, we're all too different to have a same required need to make it a huge issue. Everyone who is serious about building mass should experiment to find what's best for THEIR body, not what every book, website and internet expert claims is ideal for everyone. I've done high and moderate protein diets, and I simply don't need 250+g/day to gain - I can do fine on about 150g/day and get results in time. If 250g/day actually improved my performance, of course, I'd take in more protein, but my body doesn't seem to care either way, so why force more on it that doesn't impact performance positively? But, for those who have found high protein diets work best, more power to them, and if people insist that it's helped their gains, then they know what's best for them. It doesn't make sense for the high-protein side to say that everyone NEEDS massive amounts to grow, because while apparently many people find it helps their gains, there are plenty who don't see much difference. Just as well, when people claim that protien needs for maximum results for mass building are low for everyone and that taking in 200+g/day is a waste, they obviously are completely unaware of the fact that many people DO make better gains on high protein. If both sides would simply acknowledge that we're all different and that, just like caloric intake levels for maintaining bodyweight, we are all on different levels and have different requirements, it would make life easier. Instead, everyone tends to preach their personal way as the "best" way, which just isn't the case across the board.

 

Experiment, experiment, experiment and find what's best for YOU, because it doesn't matter who is telling you that you "need" to take in a certain amount of protein (be it high or low) to get your best results, they don't have a clue what you'll respond best to. Only you'll know for sure, once you've put in your due time trying both ways to find what suits you best!

[RAINRA]

Good response Veganessentials!

 

I think also people should assume not only what is best to add muscle but what is best for over all health and your digestive system as well, and putting to much of anything can be a bad thing in many cases.

[Im Your Man]

Good response Veganessentials!

 

I think also people should assume not only what is best to add muscle but what is best for over all health and your digestive system as well, and putting to much of anything can be a bad thing in many cases.

Yes, digestion and absorbtion and assimilation are of primary importance if we want to achieve optimum results.

as I'm always quick to say, we're all too different to have a same required need to make it a huge issue. Everyone who is serious about building mass should experiment to find what's best for THEIR body, not what every book, website and internet expert claims is ideal for everyone.

As I already said when we discussed this subject together, I don't think there are any big difference between each person, and if there is, it doesn't require a change in the diet. The only change is about the quantity of calories. A small, inactive person needs less calories than a tall person. An obese doesn't need more calories, we need to base his needs on his ideal weight. As D. Graham said in his '80/10/10 diet' book, the 'caloronutrient' (80% carbs, 10% protein, and 10% fat) remains the same ideal ratio for all humans, no matter the gender, bloodtype, nationality or the area where they moved, or bodytype/morphology. He says, based on studies made on different calories intakes given to 'endomorphs', etc, 'fast' metabolism and 'slow' metabolism, that the calorie requirements for these persons only differs from 5%. Someone with a greater need of proteins, it's in fact a greater need of calories - when you eat more calories you also get the extra proteins you need, but the perfect % should always stay 10% or under.

Also, the ideal food for Eskimos or Inuits for optimal health ain't fish or meat only because they moved in a cold climate, the ideal food for humans remains fruit no matter if you move to China or Africa or Antartic, because human is a tropical animal. We are not polar bears so we build igloos or houses with a heating system, we put clothes, all this to create a tropic-like environment.

[VeganEssentials]

As I already said when we discussed this subject together, I don't think there are any big difference between each person, and if there is, it doesn't require a change in the diet. The only change is about the quantity of calories. A small, inactive person needs less calories than a tall person.

 

Not true across the board. You tend to speak in extremes without considering the great variances between people's metabolism, in that some people are more sensitive to some carbohydrates, etc. that are far too common to dismiss. I have friends who are small and inactive, and some of them burn more calories sitting at a desk all day than when I (who outweighs some of them by 70-80 lbs.) am active and training hard. I know lifters who weight less than me and need twice as many calories to gain ANY weight, so how does that mean that we're all basically the same and that size dictates your needs? You tend to overlook the vast, complex nature of how different we truly are in areas regarding our processing of nutrients effectively, caloric intake needs, etc. and prefer to argue that we can all eat the same thing and get the same results, but real world experience really does prove that to not be accurate.

 

 

An obese doesn't need more calories, we need to base his needs on his ideal weight.

 

You're correct, but that's irrelevant to the discussion of the differences between metabolic variances and how different people seem to process nutrients with greater efficiency than others for the goal of gaining mass.

 

As D. Graham said in his '80/10/10 diet' book, the 'caloronutrient' (80% carbs, 10% protein, and 10% fat) remains the same ideal ratio for all humans, no matter the gender, bloodtype, nationality or the area where they moved, or bodytype/morphology. He says, based on studies made on different calories intakes given to 'endomorphs', etc, 'fast' metabolism and 'slow' metabolism, that the calorie requirements for these persons only differs from 5%. Someone with a greater need of proteins, it's in fact a greater need of calories - when you eat more calories you also get the extra proteins you need, but the perfect % should always stay 10% or under.

 

And, since he's written a book, that means that it's truth for all people and all others are completely incorrect

 

I can find you a hundred books that will have their own science to prove that we have greater differences than this person says, but does that mean that somehow everything is simulatenously true or simultaneously false EXCEPT for the teachings you believe in most?

 

You tend to promote what conforms purely to your own ideals as if it will be best for everyone, and that's just not the case in the real world. Simply because you agree personally with one author's writings does not automatically mean that he's the only one with a rational and truly scientific explanation, no matter how many quotes you can take from his or her book. I hate to hammer that home again, but it bears repeating. There are authors whose teachings on nutrition and exercise I find very informative and have greatly shaped my own way of doing things, but that doesn't mean I believe they're always 100% correct and that nobody with conflicting theories could possibly have ideas that are valid. Here's the part to really consider: the fact that we can have a thousand different books with their own diet/training theories with a thousand different people all claiming that they're what changed their lives is proof that no one person has the answer to the one "best" way for each of us to eat and train. If you don't believe that statement, it's due either to ignorance or denial. People have greatly improved their health and physique using low protein diets, people have done it doing high-protein diets. We can speculate that according to your preferred author's writings that the increased protein didn't do anything beneficial, but since it can't be proven and people have made the progress going against your preferred methodologies, there's nothing that can be proven so all discussion is speculation vs. fact for both sides, and a draw doesn't mean that your favored author wins by default. Moving along...

 

Also, the ideal food for Eskimos or Inuits for optimal health ain't fish or meat only because they moved in a cold climate, the ideal food for humans remains fruit no matter if you move to China or Africa or Antartic, because human is a tropical animal. We are not polar bears so we build igloos or houses with a heating system, we put clothes, all this to create a tropic-like environment.

 

...Well, maybe not so much in moving along. We're getting way off topic here into territory that leads into a whole new area that COULD be debated, but we've been down that road too many times to warrant another trip down memory lane

[juced_porkchop]

For me, the jury's still out on this one. I think he makes some valid points and from what I learned from Phillip Day's work and research (http://www.credence.org) this makes absolute sense.

 

Yes he isn't as muscled as some people, but he's a long distance runner so to criticize him for this is irrelevant in my opinion. I would be very interested to see what a bodybuilder's results would be if he were to follow a similar low protein - high 'living'/raw food plan.

 

Whatever protein we consume (whether from meat or plants) Sure, breaking down plant protein is easier than breaking down anim has to be broken down and converted to human protein anyway and I think some people forget this.al protein but the body still has to break it down into the building blocks and then construct it's own animal/human protein.

 

I will be following RainRa's progress very closely because this is of great interest to me. Personally, and unlike Rainra, I will be consuming lots of protein from sources such as hemp and rice powder until I am of a healthy weight for my height and age (I am currently underweight) and then I am going to experiment to see what kind of gains I can get without consuming loads of protein from refined sources.

 

My thread on protein (am I missing something here?) compliments this - the math and statistics suggest that we actually don't need to take in as much protein as thought and that the body is more than capable of using what it gets from raw food -amino acids etc.

 

This could be completely wrong and I could be making a big error - but that's fine because for me, nutrition is as much about learning as anything else. I'm not saying 'The guy is right, all who disagree are stupid' or anything like that (before I get laughed at for thinking this Orden guy might be onto something) it's just that for me it kind of makes sense.

 

So consider me on the fence for this at the moment

 

(has to be broken down and converted to human protein anyway and I think some people forget this) ??????

there is no human or animal protein. there merly combanations of amino acids that are digested "broken down like ANYTHING you eat" some have more amino acides then other some are a "compleat protein" meaning its got all of them "in a verying amount sure" but its there, while others are incompleate "not all there"

 

i dont think you have the right grasp on this but if i can think of a link or smthing to further explain what im trying ot say ill coem back on this thread and post it.

[xjohanx]

Hey Ryan, talking about different metabolic rates is so 06, NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

[VeganEssentials]

Hey Ryan, talking about different metabolic rates is so 06, NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

 

I'm just livin' in the past, man, livin' in the past...

[RAINRA]

I spent countless hours watching all nutrition videos, lectures, podcasts you name it. From David Wolfe, Dr. Graham, Dr. McDougall, Dr Essesylsten and plenty of other experts.

I listen to everyones side of things. I came from a 100 percent SAD diet. Take out pizza was my staple food.

 

There are so many answers and questions that these guys all push and it really depends on what your physical activity is or how much fat you tend to carry, how fast your put on muscle, your body type, genetic variances that activated by what you eat or if you want to build muscle, or mass or reduce cholesterol... and so on.

 

I found that eating more raw veggies has been given people better overall health. Hands down if you commit to that it really makes a big difference in overall health. Not everyone can do that though. Either cause of lifestyle commitment or just plain taste. I love that there is options out there and there is variety. Want to loose weight hands down eat less process junk and eat more wholefoods. Muscle truly comes from working the muscle hard and resting it so it can rebuild.

 

I think the true underlying problem is not which diet is the best but which diet/ lifestyle can you follow I think Doug Graham has valid points but so do many other health practitioners, like Dr. Clements from Hippocrates institute or the Gershon institute. A healthy diet is much more important that weather your diet is made of eating lots of bananas or eating all cooked.

 

I found it just what can you truly stick with and are you eating healthy or are you eating junk. Which again I say just cause your vegan does not mean your healthy. And some Vegans believe that.

 

I hate it when people don't eat 100 vegan, for many reasons but I can respect if someone is willing to make an effort in the right direction. I know though if someone can do 99 percent vegan, then that is better than nothing at all.

 

I encourage everyone to find not just stick to one style of eating but switch it up discover what you can tolerate and where can you succeed, grow with it to improve your overall health. I tried 100 percent raw and failed do to lack of good recipe ideas and laziness. So 100 percent raw for now is not for me. I highly recommend it though if you can stick with it. I found that I was successful not cooking my veggies at all and that could keep me closer on raw. Protein powders I found were not really important in my diet. If I had it would be because I wanted it as food not supplementation.Maybe in the future I will see that I need it. I experiment and test and see how it works.

 

 

On other topics I have seen often people on the message board here jump on someones bandwagon team up with what is popular and pound the opposing view down till they feel like leaving the forum. I know Frutarians here have had a really bad time speaking here on Veganbodybuilding because people just don't agree with it. We are all learning here and we must respect each others opinions.

 

No one is wrong here it is just opinion, your influences, your ability to follow a particular philosophy, the latest research or on the other hand having a lack of knowledge in nutrition and just following the masses and industry on what they are doing which is what most Americans do. Failure in a diet or lifestyle is stopping from moving towards improvement and an overall goal.