aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I am trying to decide if raising chickens for eggs would be ethical. Quite frankly, I miss hardboiled eggs. A lot. Here are the dilemmas I'm trying to work through:1) Is it possible to ensure that I obtain the chickens from an ethical place?2) If so, is it ethical to take eggs from chickens? After all, they did create the eggs, so is it stealing for humans to take them, no matter how the chickens were treated? As far as caring for them goes, I'm going to be moving into a new house soon, and I'm building the house with a semi-flat roof that could be, with some modifications, very suitable for housing chickens. I'd probably hire someone to take care of them for about $8,000-$10,000 a year (If I did this I would only have a few chickens so caring for them would probably take less than an hour per day) so that they would be in the safe hands of a qualified person. The only question that I need to answer is - is it ethical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Chickens are not supposed to live in a semi-flat roof but in the nature. Stay in your house with the impossibility to go outside, with no social life, with someone of a different specie coming everyday to take a sample on you or to steal something from you... and ask yourself if you find it ethical. What is so good about boiled eggs? Just like that, with nothing else and unsalted? I guess its the taste of the salt that you liked. Since how long are you vegan? I too when I first went vegan there were a few things I still craved for but I found vegan substitutes or with time I just stopped thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 You do make a lot of good points. I'm wondering how you'd feel about it if the chickens had access to the backyard... it's very big and right along a quiet river, and would be almost like living in nature for them, if not better. Quite pleasant. If I just had a few it would be plenty of space for them, and they could go back and fourth from the roof to the yard. I know that dogs and cats often enjoy the company of humans; are chickens the same way? If so I could entertain them and play games with them. They could also be friends with each other, and thus would have a social life available to them whenever they wanted it. I have been vegan for several years but still remember how when I was a kid my mom would make a lot of meals for me using hard boiled eggs and I now just have those sort of memories associated with them I suppose. I love the yellow inside with white outside. I love biting into it - the softness of it, the texture - and seeing the yellow center. But I wouldn't want to make chickens suffer at all. I would only want to do this if I could make their lives more enjoyable than they would otherwise be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Intentionally raising another creature and using it for a commodity (eggs) is not in line with vegan ethics. That part really doesn't have any question to it. Still don't know how anyone really misses eating an aborted chicken fetus, (eggs grossed me out more than meat, but that's just me), but whatever floats your boat, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjs Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 But I wouldn't want to make chickens suffer at all. I would only want to do this if I could make their lives more enjoyable than they would otherwise be.If they weren't bred in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypto Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 whether its ethical or not, chickens have been domesticated already. so if you "rescue" a chicken and give it a home in which you feel that it can live a "good" and proper life, then that part of the equation is solved. if you think that the chicken and yourself have a mutually beneficial living arrangement, then there would less questions regarding eggs. but this is an issue that requires a bit of research on your part. personally, i have no experience with chickens and do not know how they relate to their eggs. cats and dogs have also been domesticated, as an example. and many of them suffer tremendously if they dont have good homes.. we're all aware of that. so i think that being able to rescue a cat or dog from those circumstances and helping to provide a good life for them as companions (not as property) is one of the greatest things. where the chicken is concerned, i would say that obtaining one solely for the purpose of taking it's eggs is exploitative. doing it out of compassion for the chicken as a sentient being should be the primary motivation with regards to vegan ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 But I wouldn't want to make chickens suffer at all. I would only want to do this if I could make their lives more enjoyable than they would otherwise be.If they weren't bred in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue. Yes, but it is better for a being to be created and experience a life of leisure than to never be created in the first place. whether its ethical or not, chickens have been domesticated already. so if you "rescue" a chicken and give it a home in which you feel that it can live a "good" and proper life, then that part of the equation is solved. Interesting... so you're saying I should adopt or rescue chickens, rather than purchase them. if you think that the chicken and yourself have a mutually beneficial living arrangement, then there would less questions regarding eggs. but this is an issue that requires a bit of research on your part. personally, i have no experience with chickens and do not know how they relate to their eggs. cats and dogs have also been domesticated, as an example. and many of them suffer tremendously if they dont have good homes.. we're all aware of that. so i think that being able to rescue a cat or dog from those circumstances and helping to provide a good life for them as companions (not as property) is one of the greatest things. where the chicken is concerned, i would say that obtaining one solely for the purpose of taking it's eggs is exploitative. doing it out of compassion for the chicken as a sentient being should be the primary motivation with regards to vegan ethics. I can see what you're saying, but at the same time, the chickens wouldn't really know or care if they were there because of their eggs or for their company alone, right? They still have the freedom and enjoyment and good life, and of course I would keep them after they stopped producing eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypto Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Interesting... so you're saying I should adopt or rescue chickens, rather than purchase them. yeah for sure. you wouldnt be funding/supporting what is an otherwise exploitative business. I can see what you're saying, but at the same time, the chickens wouldn't really know or care if they were there because of their eggs or for their company alone, right? i have no idea, im not familiar with chicken psychology/behavior. They still have the freedom and enjoyment and good life, and of course I would keep them after they stopped producing eggs. thats the important part, just make sure that you feel the decision is a sound one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trying2bvegan Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 i have no experience with chickens and do not know how they relate to their eggs. In my experience (I grew up rural NY), chickens in any living situation tend to abandon their unfertilized eggs after a day or two of "incubating" them. They seem to be able to tell when it is not a viable egg - that, or they are indifferent (I doubt the latter highly). I have found this egg-abandonment to be true of most all chickens, whether they are in a totally unnatural setting (e.g., very large farms that have almost industrial-scale living quarters for their hens) or are TRULY "free range" (e.g., the old woman up the street who had 85 acres, three hens, and one cock). To me, I am having trouble seeing why it is unethical to collect eggs left behind by truly free-range hens. The author of this post would not have truly free-range hens, of course, but I am curious as to what other vegans think about collecting eggs that would otherwise be consumed by other animals. I'm not sure I buy the exploitation argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypto Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 it all depends on the motivation. i think that treating animals as property or a commodity is inherently exploitative. its not really an argument per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 it all depends on the motivation. i think that treating animals as property or a commodity is inherently exploitative. its not really an argument per se. Hm? I'm not treating them as property. If I were I'd keep them on a shelf in the closet, like I do my other belongings. To me, I am having trouble seeing why it is unethical to collect eggs left behind by truly free-range hens. The author of this post would not have truly free-range hens, of course, but I am curious as to what other vegans think about collecting eggs that would otherwise be consumed by other animals. I'm not sure I buy the exploitation argument. I am curious as to what it would take for them to be truly free range... does it mean completely without borders or fences? If so this could be very dangerous for the chickens, as they could lose their way if they travel too far, not too mention run into predators or cars. My new backyard would be a lovely place for them; it's on a quiet river and almost completely shaded by big, gorgeous overhead trees, like a canopy. Oh, it's so lovely! And then when they are ready to go to sleep, they could retire to their big comfy bedroom via outdoor stairway to my mostly-flat roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zinzen Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Dude seriously? If you want to do something do you need permission from us, and if you did it seems that you are trying your best to work the opinions to your advantage, just do what you are going to do, but if you confine the chickens, or go after them when they leave then they are your fucking food slaves, you are claiming life as property, and you my fellow VBB poster will be a douche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Raising Humans: Is it Ethical? If you acknowledge that animals are not human property, you cannot justify raising them purely for your own ends, regardless of how "good" or "humane" you treat them. Since we have the right not to be property, such questions don't even arise (eg. "would it be ethical to raise humans for their hair?"). End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Raising Humans: Is it Ethical? If you acknowledge that animals are not human property, you cannot justify raising them purely for your own ends, regardless of how "good" or "humane" you treat them. Since we have the right not to be property, such questions don't even arise (eg. "would it be ethical to raise humans for their hair?"). End of story. But we do raise humans. We call it parenting. We wouldn't let our kids do things that could put them in harm's way, such as play in the street, for example. And do we not really do this to fulfill our own selfish desires to have kids? Of course we do, but that doesn't mean the kids don't still benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypto Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 And do we not really do this to fulfill our own selfish desires to have kids? those are called "artifact children." not all children are artifact children, but it seems that more often than not in the west they are, largely in part to cultural and religious factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 And do we not really do this to fulfill our own selfish desires to have kids? those are called "artifact children." not all children are artifact children, but it seems that more often than not in the west they are, largely in part to cultural and religious factors. All children are either:1) intentionally conceived2) accidentally conceived If ever the former, those kids were had to fulfill the parents' own selfish desires to have kids. Otherwise, there would be no point in having them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan Joe Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Get your chickens and your eggs and log onto the Ovo vegetarian forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Get your chickens and your eggs and log onto the Ovo vegetarian forum. I'm afraid I don't understand... are you saying that it would be ethical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan Joe Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Get your chickens and your eggs and log onto the Ovo vegetarian forum. I'm afraid I don't understand... are you saying that it would be ethical?If we're talking about your ethics, well then it's your call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypto Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 All children are either:1) intentionally conceived2) accidentally conceived If ever the former, those kids were had to fulfill the parents' own selfish desires to have kids. Otherwise, there would be no point in having them. that couldnt be further from the truth. there just so happens to be many other belief systems out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryan Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 All children are either:1) intentionally conceived2) accidentally conceived If ever the former, those kids were had to fulfill the parents' own selfish desires to have kids. Otherwise, there would be no point in having them. that couldnt be further from the truth. there just so happens to be many other belief systems out there You can make up whatever "belief system" you want but at the end of the day people who have kids do so because THEY wanted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 OK, this is getting a little too ridiculous to me. No offence, but going to such lenghts to find an excuse for exploitation just because you like the texture of eggs is, in my opinion, pathetic. If you really want to find that excuse, you will and there's no stopping you. Such discussions are, in essence, talking common sense vs. talking far-off, highbrow shite. Now I'll let you say the last word and "win". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypto Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 You can make up whatever "belief system" you want but at the end of the day people who have kids do so because THEY wanted them. thats one weak response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyrLinus Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Just as a reminder to all to keep the discussion civil and avoid the name calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopussoir Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I know someone who comes to this board here and there that has chickens as pets and not food items. She gets happy when chicks are born and sad when something happens to any of the chickens. All depends on how your outlook is on pets i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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