The Great Protein Debate

[Free]

Sorry if this topic is old-hat to many of you, but I have a lot of questions/thoughts about proteins, and much of the relevant information on this board is scattered around. My hope is to compile information about proteins with your help, dispel various protein myths, and come to some hard conclusions about proteins as they pertain to vegan and vegetarian weight training.

 

First, though I talked a little about it in my introduction, I've come off a vegan diet to gain weight and build muscle, but I'd prefer to go back to being vegan--I believe that it can be done, but I'm not satisfied with easy answers. There are so many rumor mills on both sides of the vegan fence that it's often hard to know with great certainty the truth as regards a product--in this case, proteins. Here are some of the questions I'm wrestling with, and that hopefully we can sort out:

 

1. Is there any plant-based protein as efficient for building human muscle as eggs?

 

2. Can whole cow's milk be replaced with other high-calorie drinks that provide the same (or better) benefits for building muscle and gaining weight?

 

3. Soy protein--what gives? Is it bad, is it good? Should I worry about the estrogen levels, or should I not care?

 

4. Pea, soy, Gemma, and hemp proteins: if I switch to them, are they as useful to the human body--specifically, can they be as readily utilized to build muscle, and with the same or better efficiency--as other sources?

 

Ideally, I'd like to compile articles and discuss the findings, as well as talk about relevant literature--in short, to build a kind of comprehensive protein database of sorts. And again, if this thread has already been done, I apologize for making a new one (I searched for one, I promise!).

[el_flaco]

This focus on individual protein sources is a complete waste of time. From wikipedia regarding measuring protein quality:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score

 

The PDCAAS method may also still be considered incomplete, since human diets, except in times of famine, almost never contain only one kind of protein. However, calculating the PDCAAS of a diet solely based on the PDCAAS of the individual constituents is impossible. This is because one food may provide an abundance of an amino acid that the other is missing, in which case the PDCAAS of the diet is higher than that of any one of the constituents. To arrive at the final result all individual amino acids would have to be taken into account, though, so the PDCAAS of each constituent is largely useless.

 

For example, grain protein has a PDCAAS of about 0.4 to 0.5, limited by lysine. On the other hand, it contains more than enough methionine. White bean protein (and that of many other pulses) has a PDCAAS of 0.6 to 0.7, limited by methionine, and contains more than enough lysine. When both are eaten in roughly equal quantities in a diet, the PDCAAS of the combined constituent is 1.0, because each constituent's protein is complemented by the other.

As you said in your intro, you'll be consuming a fairly large amount of calories to gain weight. Assuming a relatively varied diet, you will not be deficient in any individual protein.

[Duncan_Idaho]

Nice questions!

 

1. Yes and no. Protein is composed of amino acids. There are roughly 22 essential (for humans) amino acids among over 300 amino acids which the human body uses. The general idea is that the human body needs to obtain the "essential" acids from food sources, while it can synthesize the other 300 on it's own from "building blocks". Eggs contain all the 22 amino acids. That's one source for all 22, which means that if you were stranded on a lonely island with a barbell and only one "protein" food source to choose from and you insisted on building muscles fast, maybe you could eat eggs. Soy protein has all of the 22 essential aminos too. I bet there are other plants which have them as well

You do not need all of the 22 aminos from one source though. Having different foods in your diet should eliminate any concerns about "complete" proteins - that's how all us vegans build muscle! I personally do believe in biological transmutation too but I don't have sound proof right now.

 

2. Why do you need cow's milk? Casein retains water, leading to cellulite (a scourge for women). It also contains as much fat (saturated) as protein (or should if it's not processed with chemicals, which you don't want in your body). Just eat enough, you don't need milk. The gorillas in the jungle don't drink milk and yet they get pretty big.

 

3. Soy protein is a very useful source of glutamine - glutamine is a highly anabolic amino acid. I have experienced it myself. About the estrogen levels - I am not sure, it's very controversial and I personally decided to quit taking too much soy - out of caution and because soy somehow isn't tasty and I believe that the body tells you best what's good for you. Some people drink soy proteins and have no problems. The thing with soy is that it's a very tough plant, very easy to grow. So the soy industry has launched a propaganda and the meat industry, feeling threatened is launching counter propaganda. Who knows where the truth is. Check pubmed.org, there's useful stuff on it. I think some Japanese study in 1966 showed that soy was bad for men but it was very indecisive - and it was 1966 after all (or some year like that, not sure right now).

 

4. I used to use a 3 component protein - soy, pea and rice. It was wonderful. More components = more things (aminoes, vitamins, trace elements, etc) you might want in your diet. I highly recommend such proteins. I never got the chance to try hemp or gemma.

[beforewisdom]

Many of the issues in the original post are moot or are covered by this blog article, by Jack Norris, cofounder of Vegan Outreach and a Registered Dietitian

 

http://jacknorrisrd.com/?p=1180

[pazios2002]

Nice questions!

 

1. Yes and no. Protein is composed of amino acids. There are roughly 22 essential (for humans) amino acids

.

 

 

22 EAA, Wow. I can remember there being like eight or so, and like 15 more we use, about 11 of those being conditionally essential but 22 man now I am paranoid. I am behind the times.

[vegimator]

Yeah, some of what Duncan said there was way off base. The glutamine thing for instance has been well debunked. I don't have time to do point you to the best study now but this abstract says that while glutamine is safe to take, "the suggested reasons for taking glutamine supplements (support for immune system, increased glycogen synthesis, anticatabolic effect) have received little support from well-controlled scientific studies in healthy, well-nourished humans."

 

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/138/10S-I/2045S

[Northstar]

Nice questions!

 

1. Yes and no. Protein is composed of amino acids. There are roughly 22 essential (for humans) amino acids

.

 

 

22 EAA, Wow. I can remember there being like eight or so, and like 15 more we use, about 11 of those being conditionally essential but 22 man now I am paranoid. I am behind the times.

 

Essential

Isoleucine

Leucine

Lysine

Methionine

Phenylalanine

Threonine

Tryptophan

Valine

 

Nonessential

Alanine

Asparagine

Aspartic Acid

Cysteine

Glutamic Acid

Glutamine

Glycine

Proline

Selenocysteine

Serine

Tyrosine

Arginine

Histidine

Ornithine

Taurine

[Free]

Awesome replies, guys--thanks! Looks like we're off to a great start on this. Let me hit a few back.

 

The Jack Norris article posted by beforewisdom answers one of the questions (and it's not a moot point until the facts are in), raises a few others. Jack's looking at complete proteins by range as regards number of servings to satisfy all (non-synthesized) EAAs (essential amino acids), and his findings indicate that foods like tofu, lentils, and edamame all score quite high. If they're complete and edible, they'll work to build muscle--that's the simple part (Spirulina goes out the window, but I'm okay with never having to ingest another gram of that ever again). But what about quantity, and what about soy? Jack writes, "As an aside, the research to date indicates that moderate amounts of soy do not harm men's health."

 

What's a moderate amount? How does that compare to his servings guide as it relates to plant-based complete protein sources? He's also inconclusive about hemp, and that get's dragged out of the closet and called a complete protein on an awful lot of channels. Interestingly, the analysis on eggs doesn't match up with a lot of the stuff I've read the egg protein companies talk about. No surprise, a profit's a profit. I'm becoming more and more suspicious of egg protein.

 

Duncan, you posted some very interesting ideas. I never thought about combining proteins to get more components, but I doubt vitamins factor in unless the protein is cold-pressed or raw--they're too sensitive to temperature to endure, unless they're added post-process. Traces, aminos, and minerals, on the other hand--well, I've just never thought about that, and it makes common sense when I do. And if Jack's data is to be believed, there's no need to mix--doing a straight lentil or soy should be enough.

 

This raises another point: acidity of isolates. During a recent talk I went to, Brendan Brazier discussed how he's veered away from isolate proteins (whey and soy, but generally as well) because isolates tend to increase acid build-up post workout. That, I suppose, is one thing egg has going for it, provided it's pure egg albumin, but there's got to be soy and mixed plant-proteins out there that are not isolates, correct? And is Brendan correct--do isolates increase acidity in the muscles post workout, and does this inhibit growth and repair? (note: the Vegan sport protein is a mix rice, pea, hemp, alfalfa, and spirulina--there's that hemp again! Source: Vega Sport)

 

As for cow's milk, the fat, calories, and extra proteins make it easy to pack on weight. That points back to question 2, what can I replace it with (hemp milk is out, according to Jack)? Soy milk may be in, but it's not hitting the same calorie count. Coconut milk, maybe?

 

Finally, el_flaco's link raises another concern: the validity of the way we evaluate PER and BV scores (something egg protein likes to trumpet). But if that score is bunk (again, if), then what can we use? Though I have to be honest--and maybe I'm missing something--I'm don't think brandishing a Wikipedia link makes these questions a "complete waste of time."

[Ducati]

Free,

 

Why the need to compared plant proteins to animal proteins? Simply look at the profiles here. You will see some very large and muscular vegans. Obviously, plant proteins work just fine. If you want to find something with all the fat calories and proteins as dairy, you probably won't find it in the plant-based foods. But you can eat a variety of plant-based whole foods and get a lot more nutrition without the antibiotics, hormones, growth factors etc. If all you are worried about is getting bigger, then you probably can't beat the growth hormones in milk. But if you want to be big and healthy, you can choose from thousands of foods to get the nutrients you need.

[Free]

Free,

 

Why the need to compared plant proteins to animal proteins? Simply look at the profiles here. You will see some very large and muscular vegans. Obviously, plant proteins work just fine. If you want to find something with all the fat calories and proteins as dairy, you probably won't find it in the plant-based foods. But you can eat a variety of plant-based whole foods and get a lot more nutrition without the antibiotics, hormones, growth factors etc. If all you are worried about is getting bigger, then you probably can't beat the growth hormones in milk. But if you want to be big and healthy, you can choose from thousands of foods to get the nutrients you need.

 

You can see large, muscular people on any bodybuilding site, regardless of diet. That's not the point. The point isn't about getting huge, or competition between plant and animal sources. The point is that I, and likely many people on whatever side of whatever diet fence, have made mistakes by simply listening to someone tell them, "Hey, I know what I'm talking about, do it like this." And I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not listening to vegans tell me to trust them, and I'm not listening to non-vegans, or anybody, for that matter, without doing the homework, talking to people, getting feedback, and being brutally honest about the results.

 

So, when you say, "But if you want to be big and healthy, you can choose from thousands of foods to get the nutrients you need (emphasis mine, implying that a vegan diet is the better or healthier way to go about things), well, prove it. Because that's what I'm here to do.

[el_flaco]

Simply look at the profiles here. You will see some very large and muscular vegans.

That's not the point.

Of course it is. Your worry is that plant proteins are insufficient to support your mighty weightlifting efforts. Empirical evidence to the contrary counts for nothing?

 

If your worry was that animal protein was insufficient finding large muscular animal abusers would put that worry to rest. It's the same here.

 

The point is that I, and likely many people on whatever side of whatever diet fence, have made mistakes by simply listening to someone tell them, "Hey, I know what I'm talking about, do it like this." And I'm not doing that anymore.

Sadly you are. Someone has told you that PER is important, you have bought that. Now you are on here asking for plant protein sources that rival animal sources in terms of PER even though a simple glance at the highest ranking proteins by PER would indicate they are from animal sources. When offered the opinion that PER is not important, you ignore that as not being part of your "Great Protein Debate".

 

In your intro you claimed to be a college professor. An educated man. If that is true I cannot believe that the disingenuous way you are attempting to frame this "Great Protein Debate" is accidental. I'd guess you are just looking to have some dilettante fun trolling the vegans.

[Ducati]

You want to be proven that a plant-based diet is healthy on a forum? I suggest contacting people who spend their lives studying plant-based nutrition. PCRM.org is a good place to start. The book "The China Study" is also an excellent resource.

 

I have to agree with el_flaco. You say that it isn't about getting big, but then why even care about PEV, BV, or PDCAAS? All of which have serious flaws in their data taking. PDCAAS is based on children age 2-5 which is the reason why milk proteins score so high. However, most the people become lactose intolerant after age 7. Surely an educated individual could see this and realize these tests are more propaganda than science?

 

Obviously, people who consume plant-based diet get enough EAA's. The people on this site prove this without doubt. And after this obvious fact was pointed out, you changed the debate to health, not protein. I don't see where you are going with this line of questioning.

[Free]

Flac and Ducati, I don't want to start a flame war, nor am I trolling. I'm asking legit questions, looking for feedback, compiling info, and trying to compile facts (or as close as I can get). If you guys have problems, PM me instead of derailing the thread.

 

You say that it isn't about getting big, but then why even care about PEV, BV, or PDCAAS? All of which have serious flaws in their data taking. PDCAAS is based on children age 2-5 which is the reason why milk proteins score so high. However, most the people become lactose intolerant after age 7. Surely an educated individual could see this and realize these tests are more propaganda than science?

 

I didn't know about PCRM--I'll check them out and update later. But PER and BV scores are how proteins are being evaluated, and if it's bunko, I want to know. Getting big isn't the point--the point, for me, is to gain strength, put on a few pounds, and find the healthiest ways to go forward (be it vegan or otherwise). Just because I'm on a vegan forum doesn't mean I'm not going to be criticial of it. Do you have a source on your last statement?

 

Flac's link calls PER and BV scores into question, and I'm digging through the sources to get a bigger picture. The next question is, if the PER and BV score doesn't hold up for humans, is there an accurate evaluative score or measurement that can be used instead? The Jack Norris article presents us with a servings guide and way to tell how complete a protein is, but it doesn't touch on digestibility. I'm curious as to how these ideas interact (if they do at all).

 

Going back to one of my earlier questions about soy and milk, I've decided to replace 50%-80% of my milk servings with soy milk and see what happens. On comparison in the store, soy milk was the only milk-type product that compared (coconut and almond milk fell way short in protein and calories). But I'm still concerned with soy and the possible downside.

[Ducati]

Do some research on PER, BV, and PDCAAS and you will see that all of them have serious flaws in how the numbers are calculated.

 

As far as strength is concerned, there are plenty of vegan athletes holding numerous gold medals and world records. So, again, it is VERY obvious that protein is not a concern. The whole protein myth is propagated by the meat and dairy industries and has no basis in fact. If it did, this website would not even exist.

 

So, you are really debating whether a plant-based diet or an animal product-based diet is more healthy. Define healthy. Longevity? Performance? Disease avoidance? Weight control? Ability to have an erection? All of the about? You get them all on a plant-based diet.

 

You claim you want feedback and information, but then on another thread, you promote consuming dairy products. If you aren't sure if a plant-based diet is healthier than an animal product-based diet, then why are you offering any advice? Dairy is the cause of dozens of diseases and it doesn't take more than the ability to read and comprehend to find plenty of studies to show this.

[Free]

Do some research on PER, BV, and PDCAAS and you will see that all of them have serious flaws in how the numbers are calculated.

 

As far as strength is concerned, there are plenty of vegan athletes holding numerous gold medals and world records. So, again, it is VERY obvious that protein is not a concern. The whole protein myth is propagated by the meat and dairy industries and has no basis in fact. If it did, this website would not even exist.

 

You're right--the more I look into PER and BV, the weirder the data is getting. Still got more to put together on that one. And there's no doubt vegans can be strong body builders--I've met, though not trained, with a few. But I don't simply trust any body building site (or body builder, for that matter) off-hand, vegan or otherwise. I believe the protein myth is exactly that--a myth for the average person--but I'm still putting together how it all works for someone doing a rigorous strength training routine.

 

So, you are really debating whether a plant-based diet or an animal product-based diet is more healthy. Define healthy. Longevity? Performance? Disease avoidance? Weight control? Ability to have an erection? All of the about? You get them all on a plant-based diet.

 

Yes, but not every person eating even the standard American diet (if one can be said to exist) suffers from those problems. But no, I'm not really debating which diet is healthier. I believe the vegan diet is healthier in every corner, but at this point it's just belief--I don't have all the facts yet. When I get there, I'll make a decision.

 

You claim you want feedback and information, but then on another thread, you promote consuming dairy products. If you aren't sure if a plant-based diet is healthier than an animal product-based diet, then why are you offering any advice? Dairy is the cause of dozens of diseases and it doesn't take more than the ability to read and comprehend to find plenty of studies to show this.

 

Saying I consume dairy is not a promotion. I get that some vegans have a Holy Grail, but I'm not here to worship. Dairy has, in part, worked for me, but as flaco and I discussed in my intro thread, there are a lot of factors--not the least of which is proper training--that have to be taken into account. I don't have to defend my statements or diet to you or anyone else, period. Especially not when every post you're talking about has a cautionary note along the lines, "but this is something I'm trying to learn more about in order to get away from so much animal product."

 

When you start talking about reading studies, implying that it's all so simply, and that if I just paid attention I'd get how super awesome being a vegan is, well, I don't know what to say. I've been a vegan, and I've even been a raw foodist at different points in my life. But there's so much contradictory info out there about food, diets, etc.--there's so many angles and agendas and profits to be factored in that it's incredibly difficult--I'd say impossible--to trust any single source of info without doing the homework. You say it like it's common sense, "Be vegan, it's #1!" But I say that even if that's true, I'm not yet convinced, I'm still working out the facts and info streams--and so are most of the people in the Intro section, by the looks of it. I mean, okay, link me to some studies--your earlier post about the China Study and such was great info--throw out some more! Help me filter through the truth and the crap! Just leave the crusading out of it, please.

[Ducati]

You haven't been a vegan. A vegan is someone who does not exploit animals. You may have been on a plant-based diet, but definitely not a vegan.

 

A vegan looks beyond the benefits to themselves. A plant-based diet not only is healthful, but it also means that several animals do not have to suffer to feed us. It means that we don't use 7 times the land to feed us which equates to less soil erosion, water use and water pollution, and more land for wildlife. It means we don't need transport grains or animals hundreds of miles, and no animals to emit methane which means less air pollution and greenhouse gases. It means that the food resources we save can feed over 20 other starving people around the world.

 

So, if you want to discuss veganism then I can't leave out the crusading. However, if you want to discuss a plant-based diet, then I can discuss the science.

 

Can someone be healthy and eat animal products? Yes. Can someone be unhealthy eating a plant-based diet? Yes. I know plenty of vegans who eat corn chips, french fries, Soda pop, cookies, cake, pasta, etc. They are unhealthy and overweight. I know people who eat animal products that exercise regularly, eat plenty of vegetables and fruits, and sparingly eat lean meats. They are much healthier than the junk-food vegans.

 

You have to be much more specific about your questions. We can't possibly list all the benefits of a plant-based diet over an animal product-based diet. But we can tell you that everything in an animal product-based diet is available in plant-based products without all the hormones, antibiotics, growth factors, carbon monoxide, pus, blood, and other stuff they do to animal products.

[Free]

You haven't been a vegan. A vegan is someone who does not exploit animals. You may have been on a plant-based diet, but definitely not a vegan.

 

I was so confused, but now everything is clear. Thank you, Vegan Police!

 

You have to be much more specific about your questions. We can't possibly list all the benefits of a plant-based diet over an animal product-based diet. But we can tell you that everything in an animal product-based diet is available in plant-based products without all the hormones, antibiotics, growth factors, carbon monoxide, pus, blood, and other stuff they do to animal products.

 

I've been very specific in my questions--go back and look. But reading off the PETA pamphlet is not getting us anywhere, and I quit donating to them years ago.

[Ducati]

Your original questions have been answered. You haven't provided any others.

[el_flaco]

And there's no doubt vegans can be strong body builders--I've met, though not trained, with a few. But I don't simply trust any body building site (or body builder, for that matter) off-hand, vegan or otherwise.

What do you mean you don't trust them? You are doubting the fact that they got big? The fact that they are vegan?

 

Personally I don't believe that you are asking questions that you want honest answers to. I simply don't trust any body builder.

[pazios2002]

And there's no doubt vegans can be strong body builders--I've met, though not trained, with a few. But I don't simply trust any body building site (or body builder, for that matter) off-hand, vegan or otherwise.

What do you mean you don't trust them? You are doubting the fact that they got big? The fact that they are vegan?

 

Personally I don't believe that you are asking questions that you want honest answers to. I simply don't trust any body builder.

 

 

I think that he means any bodybuilder can be using PEDs. There was atleast one vegan on veganfitness about a few years ago who actually said that is what he was dong. So I would have to take him at his word.

[el_flaco]

There was atleast one vegan on veganfitness about a few years ago

I knew there had to be a reason the guys on VF are so much stronger than the guys here

[pazios2002]

There was atleast one vegan on veganfitness about a few years ago

I knew there had to be a reason the guys on VF are so much stronger than the guys here