Straightedge but not a vegan!?

[Richard]

Hurr, I think that people who don't call themselves straightedge think that I am straightedge, and most people who call themselves straightedge don't think I am straightedge - but I stopped using the phrase myself a long time ago because so many people disagree about what it means, and also I don't find much use for it in day to day life anyway, I don't know when it is meant to get used. It can't be used as an explanation of anything in itself, for instance "Do you want a beer?" - "No thanks" - "Why not?" - "Because I am straight edged" - obviously, most people will then ask - "Why are you straight edged?", either that, or they will have their own preconception of what straight edge means to them, which may or may not coincide with what you think it means. So I just stick with going straight to the reason why not if it comes up. I mean, I might as well say "I don't drink alcohol" - that's a similar stop gap in the conversation, which seems always to be followed by 'why not?" so I might as well just go straight for a fuller explanation like "I don't like how alcohol changed my behaviour". It's kind of the same with veganism, except that you need a word like that for menus and products. You don't see stuff in stores which says 'straightedge' on it, and you don't go to a restaurant and ask for the straightedge menu, so I don't really know the use of the word - even more so given that there are so many people who disagree about what it means, and many adamantly claim that other people are wrong about what it means and they are right, it makes it confusing.

[xveganjoshx]

...you don't go to a restaurant and ask for the straightedge menu...

 

At first, I LOLed when I read this, because I thought it was funny. But then I got to thinking about a dish that I enjoyed before I went vegan: Penne ala Vodka. Now, I haven't come across a vegan version of this dish, so the question has not been raised about the alcohol-free-ness of this dish. I know it sounds like it's splitting hairs, but there is vodka in the sauce. And a lot of people say "most of it is cooked out", but upon investigation I discovered that depending on the cooking method a large percent of alcohol does remain in the final product. So, what do you all think about sxe and penne ala vodka? For example I would not eat a vegan rum cake but have mixed feelings about the pasta dish. Thoughts?

[jonathan]

In my mind straight edge and vegan are two completely different, but sometimes overlapping movements. Like veganism and feminism, like veganism and human rights etc etc...

 

I dispute peoples claims that alcohol consumption in moderation (we are taking 1-2 drinks in any one day and a couple of times a week at most) is in anyway harmful. Obviously drinking culture is bad, and I really detest drunkeness.

 

I must admit that I cannot grasp the reason why anyone should want to be straightedge, but of course it is the choice of the individual. For me the consumption of wine/beer (I don't drink spirits or smoke or take drugs) is a wonderful cultural experience, as well as tasting good (to me).

 

Jonathan

[offense74]

...you don't go to a restaurant and ask for the straightedge menu...

 

At first, I LOLed when I read this, because I thought it was funny. But then I got to thinking about a dish that I enjoyed before I went vegan: Penne ala Vodka. Now, I haven't come across a vegan version of this dish, so the question has not been raised about the alcohol-free-ness of this dish. I know it sounds like it's splitting hairs, but there is vodka in the sauce. And a lot of people say "most of it is cooked out", but upon investigation I discovered that depending on the cooking method a large percent of alcohol does remain in the final product. So, what do you all think about sxe and penne ala vodka? For example I would not eat a vegan rum cake but have mixed feelings about the pasta dish. Thoughts?

Dude!

Penne ala vodka? I'm seeing a few macaronis simmering in an ocean of Absolute Vodka! It sounds pretty nasty to me

[Richard]

Heh! yeah you're both correct about there being some dishes which have alcohol in them. I would avoid food which has alcohol in the recipe. I would have thought that restaurants are obliged to say if the food has alcohol in it. But there's already a word for that which is non-alcoholic, or alcoholic, which I think is pretty straight forward.

[Astrocat]

In my mind straight edge and vegan are two completely different, but sometimes overlapping movements. Like veganism and feminism, like veganism and human rights etc etc...

 

Human rights and veganism overlap because both are compulsarily to do with rights, morality and ethics.

 

But from what i can tell, SxE isn't a lifestyle which is necessarily about any of those things, it's more about control over one's person and body.

 

Some sXe people assert that it's about purity or being 'clean' , but most of those who I've encountered professing themselves to be straight-edgers eat flesh or body fluids... which are filthy and impure..... and this seems to be ok from what i can tell, according to how 'straight-edge' originated.

 

Some sXe people say it is about not taking drugs of any kind, but many take legal drugs such as pharmaceuticals, and as already mentioned by various people here, many take drugs conveyed via flesh and body fluids.

 

ie, why is it considered by sXe people to be not okay for sXe-ers to take morphine, but that it is okay for them to consume as much casomorphine as they want in the form of animals' body fluids ?

 

I think the main trouble with it all, is that there;s no clear definition of what is involved, so many people 'craft' the lifestyle to fit in with what they feel like doing personally..... so vegan sXe-ers will often reckon that sXe involves no flesh eating (and sometimes no body fluid eating) , sXe people who don;t do legal drugs will often reckon that sXE excludes the use of all drugs, legal or not..... sXe-ers who like to hype themselves up on sugar all the time will reckon that passes as straight-edge, and so forth.

 

I reckon that it trivialises the worth of identifying as straight-edge, for those who do refrain from large amounts of toxic things, and find it very pretentious when people who eat flesh and body fluids try to act morally superior due to being straight-edge.

[health freak]

In my mind straight edge and vegan are two completely different, but sometimes overlapping movements. Like veganism and feminism, like veganism and human rights etc etc...

 

I dispute peoples claims that alcohol consumption in moderation (we are taking 1-2 drinks in any one day and a couple of times a week at most) is in anyway harmful. Obviously drinking culture is bad, and I really detest drunkeness.

 

I must admit that I cannot grasp the reason why anyone should want to be straightedge, but of course it is the choice of the individual. For me the consumption of wine/beer (I don't drink spirits or smoke or take drugs) is a wonderful cultural experience, as well as tasting good (to me).

 

Jonathan

 

While i generally agree with your view, i don't drink or smoke for health reasons but when i decide to do it i see no reason of drinking and not getting a bit drunk. The same goes for smoking cannabis. When i decide to do something, it should at least get me high. I know that many people disagree but in the thought that i have control of myself 24-7, i sometimes like to loose control and go with the flow to drug induced euphoric experiences.

 

For those who are against ALL kinds of drugs, i say that's good for them. But i won't accept any state or goverment tell me that i can eat an aspirin, drink caffeine, smoke tobacco and drink alcohol and not consume cannabis.

 

I like to detox my body and think of my health but sometimes i feel like giving it a break.

 

So i guess i'm not straight edge.

[pelicanAndrew]

As for the whole "not supporting capitalism" part of the not drinking and smoking argument, I'm not quite sure how that can work. In order to change something you generally have to be part of it somehow. It sucks but it's true. I cringe every time i have to buy groceries from Kroger because it's the only grocery store in town that sells organic produce. The only time during the year where I could buy into a farm co-op I'm back in Chicago where there are farmers markets EVERYWHERE.

 

Instead of buying beer or cigarettes from large companies(I don't know of any small co-op or "indie" cigarette or cigar brands, but i digress) buy them from microbreweries. Give back to people and workers and not CEOs. The more money they have the better chance they'll have at an education, the smarter they become and the more change they will create.

 

That being said I'm limiting myself to a pint of microbrewed beer a week(as a reward for lifting) and I'm not smoking AT ALL(not even my yearly cigar) until I get back into shape.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no ONE WAY to do things and doing things one way or the other doesn't make you right or wrong.

[xveganjoshx]

As for the whole "not supporting capitalism" part of the not drinking and smoking argument

 

I've never heard this before. From anybody I know who is straight edge. It's kind of silly really, since almost everything we do supports capitalism. Capitalism FTL.

[Astrocat]

As for the whole "not supporting capitalism" part of the not drinking and smoking argument, I'm not quite sure how that can work. In order to change something you generally have to be part of it somehow.

 

Countless vegans would disagree with you......

 

Buying products is the most effective way to support capitalism, and conversely boycotting products is an effective way to try not to support it.

 

 

 

It sucks but it's true. I cringe every time i have to buy groceries from Kroger because it's the only grocery store in town that sells organic produce. The only time during the year where I could buy into a farm co-op I'm back in Chicago where there are farmers markets EVERYWHERE.

 

It's an inaccurate comparison, since obviously you are required to buy groceries. Unlike tobacco or booze, which of course are totally non-compulsory.

 

Even if groceries were entirely optional, if food was all toxic and damaged the health when people ate it, and thusly if humans just ate food for pleasure, and only rarely for health reasons....... that wouldn;t give weight to what you're saying, it only detracts from it.

 

 

 

Instead of buying beer or cigarettes from large companies(I don't know of any small co-op or "indie" cigarette or cigar brands, but i digress) buy them from microbreweries. Give back to people and workers and not CEOs. The more money they have the better chance they'll have at an education, the smarter they become and the more change they will create.

 

 

By definition, a microbrewery was originally considered to be a brewery with a capacity of less than 3000 barrels (2500 hectoliters), but by the end of the 1980s this threshold increased to 15,000 barrels (12,500 hectoliters) as the demand for microbrewed beer doubled and then tripled.

(source : http://www.vendomecopper.com/obgloss.htm&usg=AFQjCNHEYSCiF1W2SjWHrKD0wbT6PdUjlQ)

 

there was a time when microbreweries could conveniently be described as breweries producing no more than 15,000 barrels of beer per year. Some breweries that fit this specification a few years ago now produce well in excess of 20,000 barrels a year.

Does this mean that they can no longer qualify as microbreweries? We prefer to think that this makes them successful microbreweries. In common-sense terms, a microbrewery is a small craft brewery which seeks the support of informed beer consumers.

 

(source : http://www.vendomecopper.com/obgloss.htm&usg=AFQjCNHEYSCiF1W2SjWHrKD0wbT6PdUjlQ)

 

 

I wouldn't consider those sorts of numbers to be 'small' from any angle.

 

 

I see no reason to think that supporting microbreweries is necessarily connected to choosing not to support capitalism - especially compared to choosing to buy nothing, or make something at home, instead.

 

Microbreweries typically distribute through a wholesaler in a tradional three-tier system, act as their own distributor and sell to retailers and/or directly to the consumer through a tap room, attached restaurant, or off-premise sales.

(source : http://www.dictionaryofeverything.com/explore/984/Brewery.html&usg=AFQjCNH1XOADb6FtENHx-KmuzY4rqyP2zQ)

 

Here is a random reference about the 'traditional 3 tier system' ....

 

http://retailindustry.about.com/library/uc/uc_chung2.htm

 

 

Also worth noting, is that McDonald's started off as a little family-run establishment... and now look at it.

Any vegans who went there in the early days to get salad or chips or whatever, would have directly assisted capitalism's ongoing charge by helping them to take root.

They are as good an example as any, of why i do not think that supporting a small company is directly comparable to working against capitalism.

 

If people want to smoke fags and drink booze without supporting capitalism, the solution is to grow tobacco and brew booze at home, instead of continuing to be a consumerist, just one who chooses to sometimes buy things from small-large companies instead of always from huge ones.

 

 

I cringe every time i have to buy groceries from Kroger because it's the only grocery store in town that sells organic produce. The only time during the year where I could buy into a farm co-op I'm back in Chicago where there are farmers markets EVERYWHERE.

 

Where is "Arlington Heights/Decatur, IL" ?

Are there no organic local delivery-box schemes where you live ?

 

Is your point that rather than prioritising lack of support for capitalism, you are prioritising ongoing good health , and that thus instead of buying non-organic food from farmers' markets etc, you feel moved to buy organic veg from a capitalist store (i assume that your cringeing is due to the store being unethical or capitalist or something, as I've never heard of it)

 

I think that's understandable and not unreasonable, but all the same that is the choice being made..... and choosing to value eating non-toxic food over choosing not to eat capitalist-produced produce does not make the latter any less supportive of capitalism.

[Guest]

There are truly microbreweries. Theres a guy a few miles away from me that makes less than 1000 bottles a year and charges about $10 a bottle. Its not his living obviously but he does it because he loves it. There are also hundreds of people in the country that make a couple hundred bottles of wine every year. Anyhow even large microbreweries are less capitalistic than a lot of small farms. Small farms are kept alive thanks to govt. subsidies and they get to keep all the profit(however small that may be) which is even more of a show of capitalism since the govt. is wanting that business to succeed and helping them do so.

[Astrocat]

Of course, there are truly microbreweries.

If a microbrewery can produce 20,000 kegs of booze every year then there must be plenty of microbreweries around.

 

If people want to buy booze from home-brewers then it would support capitalism less than buying booze from industrial brewers, but more so than not buying booze at all.

 

For example, if i buy a homemade cake from Fred for £10, which Fred paid £6 to make , and spent an hour making.... then if Fred then spends the extra £4 on a few litres of petrol so he can go cruising for chicks in his SUV.....

 

Then does that support capitalism less than if i had chosen to go without cake on that evening , or does it support capitalism more than buying nothing at all ?

 

Anyhow even large microbreweries are less capitalistic than a lot of small farms.

 

You appear to be stating that all large microbreweries are less capitalistic than all small farm-owners.... assumedly then, you reckon that this would also include small-farm local organic produce-farmers, and suchlike... yes ? And this is breweries we're talking about...... who keep all of their profits (however large that might be) , and who no doubt benefit enormously from the subsidisation of grains, etc.

 

Do you prefer the method of agriculture employed in many countries, where no subsidy is given to produce growers, they work all day to barely make a poverty-wage, and many of them go bust left, right and centre ?

 

Small farms are kept alive thanks to govt. subsidies

 

All of them ? Do you have evidence of that ?

 

 

subsidies and they get to keep all the profit(however small that may be) which is even more of a show of capitalism since the govt. is wanting that business to succeed and helping them do so.

 

Would you consider subsidies given by governments in favour of fair-trade (intended to assist poverty-wracked growers to earn a living wage and stay in business) to be a blatant show of capitalism, even more so than the business ethic of large breweries ?

 

If so, then we clearly have a different view of what is defined by 'capitalism'

[Guest]

I seriously doubt microbreweries benefit from subsidies the way farmers do. They don't use the lousy quality grain that Budweiser uses and a lot of the breeds of grain small breweries use are grow specifically for beer. It also doesn't take all that much grain to make beer(relative to coffee beans to make coffee) so the demand is low and prices are high for them. A company like Budweiser may even use livestock feed grain going by how bad the beer they make tastes. They don't care about the product they make the same way micro breweries care about what they make.

No...I don't have evidence of small farmers making do because of subsidies...I don't need to. It may be different in the UK but in the US this is just the way things are. Small farms do get considerably less money per acre than big farmers which is why they just make do...while big farmers are rolling in the dough since they don't need to pay for much of anything. Farming for more than just a family of all types just loses money plain and simple.

As for what I think should happen...I don't think any farm should be subsidized unless people are growing food specifically for the poor or rescue animals. I think we should pay more for our food and just not have our taxes go there...either remove that part of our taxes(this would make produce go up but meat would skyrocket) or spend it on something like college tuition for people that deserve it.

[pelicanAndrew]

As for the whole "not supporting capitalism" part of the not drinking and smoking argument

 

I've never heard this before. From anybody I know who is straight edge. It's kind of silly really, since almost everything we do supports capitalism. Capitalism FTL.

 

Darthvegan said something about it earlier and I have heard it a bunch of times. Unfortunately the other times were really stupid and backasswards. Dearthvegan at least made a good intelligent argument.

 

There's this one creepy 23 year old guy that has a ska band with a bunch of 15-17 year olds and they have a song called "Bring Back Prohibition!" and he claims to be an anarchist as well. They also suck at playing ska music which should say something about them as well seeing that ska music is pretty easy to play.

 

Astrocat, you do realize that many of the companies that we buy our delicious vegan yummy foods from also produce non vegan products. Just saying, we're part of that system to, we're only supporting the types of products that we find ethical/healthy/environmentally conscious.

 

Unless you go live in the woods without internet and grow your own food and harvest the seeds(that is if you can find seeds that don't have the genetically modified "terminator" gene in them) you're part of "the system".

 

I could give you a laundry list of microbreweries if you really want. I personally think that beer is delicious and is obviously not a necessity. Neither is my vinyl that i purchase, but it supports small independent music that I love and want to prosper.

 

I have my own convictions about thing and they make perfect sense in my mind. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate.

[Guest]

I never even though of the plastics we use. They cause a lot more damage to the environment and people than a microbrewery.

[xbillyx]

I too am vegan straightedge. I do listen to mostly punk and hardcore. I'm also spiritual (not conventionally religious). I'm an anarchist, as I believe in no hierarchy and that we can run our own lives.

 

To me, vegan and straightedge seem to go hand-in-hand. I feel as though each compliments the other and make your convictions stronger.

 

Here's my story: I was 19 and on winter vacation between semesters at college. Up until this time I had been a meat-eating drinker. I was sitting up one night and sort of had an epiphany. I realized what I had been doing and that eating animals was wrong and went vegetarian on the spot. I credit that realization to music I had been listening to (especially one song by Good Riddance), an ex-girlfriend, and the fact that I like to routinely examine myself and how I am living and change those things I do not feel good about. Anyway, so I become vegetarian overnight.

 

I realized how drinking alcohol made me feel and that I sometimes got sick and how I feel sedated and complacent while under the influence. Drugs are a great way of keeping people in check. Anyway, I felt as though I was destroying my health, so I told myself I was going to stop drinking but made a point of not calling myself straightedge right then. I guess I wanted to see if it was going to pan out. I was also concerned with associating myself with the movement and the term. A short while later, after being ed at what someone I knew had been doing and seeing all of those around me under the influence and destroying their bodies, I made the decision to call myself straightedge. I did it for myself. I knew at that point (and believe I did for a while up until then, but am not fond of commitment) that I was going to be drug-free for life. That's just who I had become. Around the same time I became vegan, which was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

 

I always tell people that I wasn't truly myself until I became vegan straightedge. I feel like me now. I'm no longer searching. I know who I am and I know what my convictions are. It feels great.

 

As animal rights activists, being straightedge/drug-free allows us to focus all of our attention at the task at hand: Animal liberation. The government legalizes alcohol (even though it is a much bigger killer than all illegal drugs) because they realize it is a way to successfully control and sedate potential problem-makers. I've met numerous vegans who would be so successful without their drug habits, but are instead intent on sitting around getting drunk and high. Now, I'm not saying that all of those of you on this site who are not straightedge are not doing anything. Just be careful. Drugs are very dangerous and addicting. I want to see my fellow activists (and humans in general) live more healthy lives with eyes wide open and attention undivided.

 

Anyway, it is possible to get vegan alcohol and to brew your own or buy from small companies. If you buy the commercial stuff found in normal grocery stores, you're supporting an awful system that advertises to kids and preys on addiction. As others on this thread have said, it's capitalism at its worst. Plus, these companies use massive amounts of chemicals to grow their hops, which destroys the earth.

 

This brings me to a point: I see that everything really is connected when you're concerned about your health, the place you live, and others. Being vegan, shunning drugs, buying organic and local, and supporting fair trade are all wonderful things to do for the world. The world is a wonderful place but life is very tough at times (I've had an extremely rough year with deaths left and right, including my Mom), so why make it tougher or more painful?

 

I've also had numerous personal experiences that have led me to and helped to reinforce my being vegan straightedge. My girlfriend's Mom died directly from alcohol. She drank herself to death. My best friend's Mom got brain and kidney cancer, which I link to her diet. My own Mom got leukemia, which I also link to her diet. It's still very painful and extremely hard to bear that these deaths, which have hurt everyone close to them so much, could have been prevented. These three women were all beautiful people and I miss them terribly.

 

To me, being vegan straightedge is about taking care of myself and those around me. That's pretty much it.

 

Wow, that was really long. Did anyone actually read this whole thing?

[finbarrio]

Wow, that was really long. Did anyone actually read this whole thing?

 

Yep, I read it. It was awesome. Helped me with something I'm going through right now. So thanks.

[xbillyx]

Wow, thanks for reading that monster of a post. Great, I'm glad it helped.

[pelicanAndrew]

Wow, that was really long. Did anyone actually read this whole thing?

 

Yep, I read it. It was awesome. Helped me with something I'm going through right now. So thanks.

 

I read it all too and I do agree with you for the most part.

 

I just really enjoy the taste of beer. Honest to goodness I do. I also enjoy a well made mixed drink(like a cosmo or margarita). Getting drunk really is just escapism and there are definitely better and far more intelligent ways to blow off steam(reading, working out, just hanging out with friends).

 

I do enjoy the occasional drunken night and actually had one of my most awesome and fun relationships start off because of one(it could have been bad though, I just got lucky ) I've cut down a lot just because I too noticed how it affected me and didn't like how I was acting when I got too drunk. I also want to feel just as comfortable socially when I'm drunk as when I'm sober. I'm surprisingly close to feeling that way, but not quite.

 

I totally respect being straightedge. I just wouldn't want to be another one of the poser "edge till 21" asswhipes i see all the time. On top of that, you're vegan which automatically makes you awesome in my book.

[xveganjoshx]

Wow, thanks for reading that monster of a post. Great, I'm glad it helped.

 

Nice post.

[finbarrio]

I always tell people that I wasn't truly myself until I became vegan straightedge. I feel like me now. I'm no longer searching. I know who I am and I know what my convictions are. It feels great.

 

That's my favorite part of your post (even though it's not the part that helped me). I first went vegan because of a) the animal welfare concerns; and b) the health concerns. What I didn't realize is that both of those reasons played into the actual, over-arching reason why I went vegan: because it is who I am. It's me "living true" (my personal motto).

[BJJVegan]

Just to clarify something since it seems to be a subject im ignorant about, why is capitalism bad and why are we trying to bring it down?

 

I know off subject but since it was brought up I thought id ask.

[Guest]

I personally don't think capitalism is bad but our capitalism is bad. It allows people to be extremely greedy and take advantage of others to the point that the hardest workers don't get their fair shake. If people cared about others then capitalism could be fine but so far someone has suffered dearly for it in nearly every example you could think of. Thats not including the fact that getting things cheap to sell for more often means hurting animals as well as the planet.

[xbillyx]

Wow, thanks for reading that monster of a post. Great, I'm glad it helped.

 

Nice post.

 

Thanks Josh.

[xbillyx]

I totally respect being straightedge. I just wouldn't want to be another one of the poser "edge till 21" asswhipes i see all the time.

 

Oh, yes, that. I've seen that happen to too many people. I don't fully buy it until the person hits 22.