I have a question.

[awakendimd]

I was having this semi-discussion with my father about me becoming a vegan. He says that in his opinion, plants also have feelings and that out bodies were created to eat meat, and that I should not believe everything I read.

 

What do you guys think?, especially about the whole plant having feelings, I'm a little confuse and I can't find the answers anywhere.

[Marcina]

Plants do not have a central nervous system, and therefore, cannot feel pain.

 

Animals on the other hand, do. People try this crap on me all the time. honestly it insults my intelligence! I don't think humans are really constructed to eat meat. We have flat teeth, flat nails, a long intestinal tract, and other things. People eat meat because we're the type of species that can eat anything.. and will.

A vegan diet, if done properly, surpasses the standard american diet.

 

If you wanna know more about how animals farmed for food are treated, watch Earthlings.

If you wanna know more about a healthy vegan diet and how to do it, visit the Vegan Society.

 

i highly recommend the Vegan Society. It is awesome. www.vegansociety.com

[DV]

There is no evidence that god exists and yet millions of people believe it is true.

 

There is no evidence that plants have feelings and yet some people believe that they do.

 

Don't believe everything your parents tell you - especially if your father is anything like mine.

[cubby2112]

The majority of people who say plants have feelings are just trying to justify their non-vegan diets by claiming that vegans still cause plenty of suffering directly. Sure, there isn't really such thing as a 100% cruelty-free lifestyle, but veganism is as close as you'll come.

[Fallen_Horse]

I don't think humans are really constructed to eat meat. We have flat teeth, flat nails, a long intestinal tract, and other things. People eat meat because we're the type of species that can eat anything.. and will.

Actually our bodies are built 'best' for being omnivorous, but no need to be picky.

 

Sure, there isn't really such thing as a 100% cruelty-free lifestyle, but veganism is as close as you'll come.

Exactly.

[Wobbly Lifter]

Eating meat indirectly causes more plants to be killed(to feed livestock.) So being vegan means less harm to plants for those who truly believe they feel pain.

[Emmybear]

Eating meat indirectly causes more plants to be killed(to feed livestock.) So being vegan means less harm to plants for those who truly believe they feel pain.

 

 

I never thought of it that way!

[Emmybear]

I don't believe that plants are sentient beings....it's never been proven... Pain is a form of protection...we feel pain so we don't freeze or burn ourselves on a hot pot....we move out of the way.

 

Plants have roots and cannot immediately escape pain...so a pain mechanism would be useless for them....there is another thread about this and a link to someone that said plants can react to danger so they have a sensory system but it is not the same as when beings with a central nervous system feel pain.

 

Even if they did feel pain I don't understand how that is an valid argument for eating meat.

I'm assuming his argument is everyone causes suffering so why inconvenience yourself.

 

While he is correct that we have the ability to digest and derive nutrients from meat.....We also have the ability to derive nutrients and digest plants and synthesize our own amino acids so even if we do not have a meat source in out diet we thrive anyway.

 

If he really does not care about farm animals. Tell him that reducing or eliminating your meat consumption not only helps your health but it helps the environment and also other people. As developing nations are starving to death we continue to feed cattle with corn and soy that could be used for starving humans. True there is no telling that if the food was available it would go to those that need it but if it was available it would cause the costs to lower. At a time when food costs are rising we can drive down the prices by making more of it available.

[Marcina]

I don't think humans are really constructed to eat meat. We have flat teeth, flat nails, a long intestinal tract, and other things. People eat meat because we're the type of species that can eat anything.. and will.

Actually our bodies are built 'best' for being omnivorous, but no need to be picky.

.

 

Yeah that's why I wrote "I don't think" cuz it's a personal opinion of mine.

 

I personally, never digested meat well. I never had a problem with fish though.. Beef always made me ill. Everytime I had some sort of puking experience, beef was usually involved. Or chicken. I had salmonella once. Eww.

[Fallen_Horse]

Eating meat indirectly causes more plants to be killed(to feed livestock.) So being vegan means less harm to plants for those who truly believe they feel pain.

Nice man, thanks for the good reply.

[BodhiDave85]

Im not an expert on whether or not plants have "feelings" or not. Maybe a fruitarian can better answer that question, but plants don't go crazy, struggling to survive while hung upside down on a death machine. Do plants have families or children or loved ones? Do plants clog our arteries after we eat them? We cant deminish the value of a plant as they have their own very important purpose, but when someone approaches you about this you need to be able to redirect the conversation into the positives of veganism and get away from grey areas until the person is in a "better" state of mind to discuss this.

[beforewisdom]

I was having this semi-discussion with my father about me becoming a vegan. He says that in his opinion, plants also have feelings

 

Plants don't even have a central nervous system. You can't have motor boat problems if you don't even own a motor boat.

 

 

and that out bodies were created to eat meat, and that I should not believe everything I read.

 

Created by whom? Millons->Billions of people don't believe in a god or the god mentioned in Judeo/Christian/Islamic texts.

 

The anatomy of the human digestive system most closely resembles that of herbivores. We have the equipment, obviously, to use meat, but not enough to do it well in quantity. Sort of like using a hammer when you really need a nutcracker.

[beforewisdom]

The group United Poultry Concerns has an FAQ for common questions about vegan ethics for those who are new to vegan beliefs:

 

In addition to the two questions asked in this thread they also have answers for other common questions

http://www.upc-online.org/ethics_questions.html

 

Vegan Outreach has a good FAQ for these kinds of questions too

http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html

[markc7]

OK, I'm just going to be an anal neuroscientist for a second here. The presence or lack of a central nervous system is not relevant to this discussion. Only vertebrates (less than 5% of animal species) have a CNS. There are thousands of animal species that can feel pain but that don't have a brain and spinal cord. This is kinda an important point, in case you're ever talking about veganism and you get the question: "So, do you eat lobster or escargot? Because they don't have a CNS."

[beforewisdom]

OK, I'm just going to be an anal neuroscientist for a second here.

 

Does that mean there are scientists who specialize only in studying anal neurology?

 

The presence or lack of a central nervous system is not relevant to this discussion. Only vertebrates (less than 5% of animal species) have a CNS. There are thousands of animal species that can feel pain but that don't have a brain and spinal cord. This is kinda an important point, in case you're ever talking about veganism and you get the question: "So, do you eat lobster or escargot? Because they don't have brains".

 

I don't agree with that.

 

The experiences of pain and emotions are subjective. You can't get inside of a lobster's head to know what it is experiencing. I can press some keys on my computer hard and watch it respond in consistent ways. I would be wrong if I concluded that the computer was reacting because it was hurt or "felt" sensitive to me pressing on its keys firmly.

 

It is an assumption, but I think a good one that dolphins, chimps, pigs, dogs, cats, rats etc _might_ have emotions, feelings _similar_ to our own since they have nervous systems similar to our own.

[markc7]

Does that mean there are scientists who specialize only in studying anal neurology?

 

That's exactly what it means.

 

I don't agree with that.

 

The experiences of pain and emotions are subjective. You can't get inside of a lobster's head to know what it is experiencing. I can press some keys on my computer hard and watch it respond in consistent ways. I would be wrong if I concluded that the computer was reacting because it was hurt or "felt" sensitive to me pressing on its keys firmly.

 

It is an assumption, but I think a good one that dolphins, chimps, pigs, dogs, cats, rats etc _might_ have emotions, feelings _similar_ to our own since they have nervous systems similar to our own.

 

Oh, I absolutely agree with your assumption that animals with a CNS experience pain, pleasure, emotions, etc, in a similar fashion to the way we do. A rat probably feels pain in a more "human" way than a lobster does. But vegans obviously don't eat lobster, or calamari, or escargot. There are any number of good reasons for avoiding eating those animals, but if you tell an omni "I don't eat animals because they have brains and feel pain just like us", then they can retort correctly that many edible animals aren't vertebrates. For that reason I think it's best to leave the CNS out of the discussion.

 

My point was more about debating tactics than animal consciousness and cognition. But I bet we could have a cool thread about that too!

[TigreBella]

I don't see why people started with the "but plants have feelings too" thing. I know plants are living things, as if they weren't they'd be shriveled up on the ground and never move...but I think their type of living is a lot different than ours. They can't possibly have the feelings we have, and don't have the ability to move long distances (except for when they're seeds and are carried away by other creatures). I mean, if you poke at them, will they move? No.

 

Now when I was younger, I had to go trawling with my dad, as he was a commercial fisherman for a living and at the time he expected all the family to go with him. He'd basically preach to me that many animals don't have feelings and that they're only there for us to eat. He made me to be so disrespectful of other creatures that I used to even kill small crabs just for fun, and out of fear that they'd pinch me...and to have stabbed (and sometimes stepped on them with boots) and see them shake and writhe in pain, let me tell you, now that I have learned to respect many creatures, I can't stop feeling pain from thinking what I did to a poor creature that was just living its life and probably waving around its pinchers just to defend itself. Once I stopped having to go trawling with my dad each year, finally started having a life, and started getting attached to my first pet (a kitten), I started getting more knowledgable and understanding of animals. Even today, I admit to my husband that I hate wasps, spiders, and roaches...I truely hate them! Though now I am starting to slowly learn to just accept that they're meant to live and that even though they scare me, they will not harm me and that they deserve to live as well.

 

But yeah, as far as plants go, I think that's why they were made the way they are. Otherwise, we'd all have to either be carnivores or just eat clay and soil. lol. But then, what if soil would have feelings too?

[IronRonin]

"I'm not a vegetarian[vegan] because I love animals, I am because I hate plants" - I forget the guy who said this.

 

 

That's how I feel too!!! Stupid plants, trying to grow in my soil. I hope they DO feel pain, I'm going to go punch carrots right now. I like nothing better than to hear stupid nuts CRACK, and corn SCREAM when you rips it's husk off. HELL YEAH. DIE PLANTS.

[Emmybear]

Stupid plants, trying to grow in my soil. I hope they DO feel pain, I'm going to go punch carrots right now. I like nothing better than to hear stupid nuts CRACK, and corn SCREAM when you rips it's husk off. HELL YEAH. DIE PLANTS.

 

[Emmybear]

Does that mean there are scientists who specialize only in studying anal neurology?

Oh, I absolutely agree with your assumption that animals with a CNS experience pain, pleasure, emotions, etc, in a similar fashion to the way we do. A rat probably feels pain in a more "human" way than a lobster does. But vegans obviously don't eat lobster, or calamari, or escargot. There are any number of good reasons for avoiding eating those animals, but if you tell an omni "I don't eat animals because they have brains and feel pain just like us", then they can retort correctly that many edible animals aren't vertebrates. For that reason I think it's best to leave the CNS out of the discussion.

 

 

That makes sense....but the what about argument that pain and fear is a defense mechanism for animals that can move?

Obviously plants are rooted to the ground so why would they feel pain. I see lobsters in the tank at the store and when they are attacked or picked up they try to defend themselves or they get out of the way. The pain and fear and emotions may not be exactly like the ones we are feeling however I cannot imagine how being boiled or steamed alive would feel..... I doubt it feels any better to a lobster whether they have a nervous system or not. Even scallops or clams that do not even resemble anything but a blob...still have the ability to get out of the way of danger so some pain mechanism would be beneficial to them.

[beforewisdom]

"I'm not a vegetarian[vegan] because I love animals, I am because I hate plants" - I forget the guy who said this.

 

 

That's how I feel too!!! Stupid plants, trying to grow in my soil. I hope they DO feel pain, I'm going to go punch carrots right now. I like nothing better than to hear stupid nuts CRACK, and corn SCREAM when you rips it's husk off. HELL YEAH. DIE PLANTS.

 

 

I had a girlfriend who used to love whipped potatoes......ahem

[TigreBella]

"I'm not a vegetarian[vegan] because I love animals, I am because I hate plants" - I forget the guy who said this.

 

 

That's how I feel too!!! Stupid plants, trying to grow in my soil. I hope they DO feel pain, I'm going to go punch carrots right now. I like nothing better than to hear stupid nuts CRACK, and corn SCREAM when you rips it's husk off. HELL YEAH. DIE PLANTS.

 

Wow... ...just...wow... *backs away*

 

Even though plants don't seem to have feelings, I at least give them some respect, though. Heck, I doubt they chose to grow where they grow at, or that they had a choice to just be "useless plants" for our society to just kill...to just pave paradise, and put up a parking lot... ...oops! I went into a little song there... *giggles, then walks away to go pamper her fruits and veggies and take good care of them until they get eaten*

[markc7]

That makes sense....but the what about argument that pain and fear is a defense mechanism for animals that can move?

Obviously plants are rooted to the ground so why would they feel pain. I see lobsters in the tank at the store and when they are attacked or picked up they try to defend themselves or they get out of the way. The pain and fear and emotions may not be exactly like the ones we are feeling however I cannot imagine how being boiled or steamed alive would feel..... I doubt it feels any better to a lobster whether they have a nervous system or not. Even scallops or clams that do not even resemble anything but a blob...still have the ability to get out of the way of danger so some pain mechanism would be beneficial to them.

 

Yep, that's exactly my point! A discussion of pain and suffering felt by animals, vertebrates and invertebrates alike, is very worthy and I think you're right that animals without a CNS experience pain as a survival mechanism. But my point was if you're in a debate with an omni and you base the pain and suffering argument on the presence of a CNS, then they would be correct to point out that not all edible animals have a brain and spinal cord. You can make the "pain as a survival mechanism" argument perfectly well (as you've done in this post) without bringing the CNS into it. When you said before "it is not the same as when beings with a central nervous system feel pain", that leaves out a heck of alot of animals.

[Emmybear]

I stand corrected I did not know so many animals did not have a CNS. I knew that some animals had a skeleton that was on the outside but I assumed they had some degree of a CNS. I understand what you are saying now and I agree.

[beforewisdom]

markc7, I have to disagree with you again.

 

It may be an arrogance of mine, but I feel that asking whether or not plants suffer reflects an unsophisticated understanding. Such people would not be likely to bring your rejoinders. Those who could would not ask such a question in the first place.