How to get enough protein

[Couture547]

You are doing her a disservice by telling her she'd do fine with her show, come in cut and ripped and ready to place on 50 grams of protein

 

These are NPC Figure Girls.

 

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc14/penelopepope/IMG_6507_QFBAVJMIWT.jpg

 

I would bet that those women are bigger and more cut than the people who are not bodbuilders or figure competitors giving out alternative health advice.

 

Probably not everything experienced competitors believe is true, but common sense would dictate at least looking at what has been working for people who have accomplished what someone asking for advice wants to accomplish.

 

The alternative health, low protein advice will be taken more seriously when people who walk that walk start visibly winning many of those contests. No, anecdotal rumors about someone who might have done that once doesn't count as knowledge.

 

No, I am not a bodybuilder or a figure competitor ( I don't look good in a bikini ), but those are not my fitness goals and I have enough common sense to not give advice that I don't know to be true. Most of the time.

 

 

 

Those girls are most likely on some sort of drugs or at least legal test boosters of some sort. Girls start developing hormonal issues when they drop below around 13 percent bf and by the looks of it there around 5. There's some thing going on when a girl is bigger then most the big lean guys on here. basically alot of people on here buy into alot of the main stream/ meat/ supplement propaganda saying you need massive amount of protein or your diet should be 20/50/30.

[Couture547]

 

ugh.

 

Yes, by all means, she should just eat fruit, nuts and throw in a couple grains and enter an NPC show and she will be right up there in the NPC line-up I posted above.

 

This is why DV only comes here about once a month now to post... or less.

 

 

Translation:

You don't know what you are talking about, you are talking about it to someone who knows what she is talking and has actual experience with the situation and that person is expressing frustration at your arrogance.

 

Veggieprincess. Please don't leave. I feel for where you are coming from. It isn't PC to say so, but particular types of people end up in particular communities. Saying so doesn't mean that it applies to 100% of the people nor does it mean that you don't love the community. Veganism tends to attract people who cling to ideas they take a fancy too even if it is obvious that reality is not so. This will not stop such people from arguing endlessly for their position. When I was their age I did the same thing as many of the raw foodists and alternative health types on this forum. I swallowed the alternative health marketing PR hook, line and sinker. I read the books by people with no authority that contradicted learning. I quoted conspiracy theories when a well meaning person would call me on my B.S.

 

Reality will not be denied. Sooner or later it comes to collect the bills. That happened to me, I grew up, and started learning how to learn. I think the same thing will happen with most of those types on this forum.....eventually.

 

Please don't get frustrated and leave.

 

I'm not gonna leave BW. I'm not in here as often cuz I have some other things going on... but it would take more than that to make me leave for good. "I'm out" just meant I had enough for the night

 

These threads happen all of the time on here, and I pretty much don't get involved because there are too many, and some people genuinely don't get a kick out of debating. I'm passionate so I get riled up... but debating the same point over and over wastes energy.

 

I got riled up because I do know about NPC, and this OP is not quite Vegan yet, or still on the fence about embarking on this lifestyle and its more important for me to have her get the right information then to be steered in the wrong direction like I was several years ago.

 

I have talked to many Vegan bodybuilders who are currently competing and none of them did it on 50 grams of protein. The ones who are actually in the arena and competing did it with the foundation of tried and true bodybuilding principles that have been shown to work for many decades. And that is not low protein. It doesen't mean taking in as much protein as the omni's... but they sure the heck didn't get there by low protein intake either. Of course, anyone can find the extremely low number of EXCEPTIONS to the rule. That's exaclty what they are... genetic exceptions of people who can build muscle and get shredded easily without following principles that most bodybuilders use.

 

I asked my trainer if he would come on here and post. He's been putting competitors on stage for nearly 10 years, but I told him he may have people arguing with him that they don't need to worry about macronutrients or protein... and he said, "Melissa... I would absolutely lose my mind and blow my brains out if people started telling me they don't need protein on my threads".... His point was that if he was going to come on here and try to help Vegans, he couldn't be bothered with that kind of nonsense. It's like DV said awhile back... on all non-Vegan Bodybuilding/Figure communities, there is no time wasted with these kinds of debates. Nobody is debating each other on whether or not they need proteins, essential fats, to keep fruit intake to a minimum, watch their starches, etc... because they are all on the same page. THAT is where the frustration comes in. Because so much time is wasted on these types of debates that people can't get past that to get to the useful information that could allow Vegan Bodybuilders and Vegan Figure competitors to be more abundant and to do well on stage and set a great example.

 

Anyways BW... thanks for the support

 

 

Did i say 50 is all that one needs? I said if one were to get 20 percent protein which is enough for anyone and your getting enough calories you'll get enough protein. So if you need 6K calories a day, is 150 grams of protein a day enough? how about 8k a day and 200 grams enough?

[Im Your Man]

I have talked to many Vegan bodybuilders who are currently competing and none of them did it on 50 grams of protein. The ones who are actually in the arena and competing did it with the foundation of tried and true bodybuilding principles that have been shown to work for many decades. And that is not low protein. It doesen't mean taking in as much protein as the omni's... but they sure the heck didn't get there by low protein intake either.

Precisely, they didn't do it with 50 grams of proteins, so what do they know? Who tried it? The protein myth is deeply rooted. I haven't always been on "low" protein. What is "low", what is enough, what is high ? How much do you suggest her to take? Who said she should eat no proteins or low proteins ? Nobody. Of course she needs high proteins. I consider 1g/kg of bodyweight being high. Let's say someone of 70kg, that's 70 g proteins per day. Add maybe an extra 10 or 15 grams if you want. That's for bodybuilders. It is now aproved that 0,5g/kg is enough for sedentary people. Double that for bodybuilders. I'm not saying that 120, 150 or 200 g of proteins won't have good results for bodybuilders, I'm just saying that less proteins would give the same results, without causing a negative calcium balance, decreased energy (proteins are not the best energy source at all, the digestion of proteins is harder and longer, the metabolism of proteins results in more metabolite and purine, imparing on muscular effort) and other health issues.

Of course' date=' anyone can find the extremely low number of EXCEPTIONS to the rule. That's exaclty what they are... genetic exceptions of people who can build muscle and get shredded easily without following principles that most bodybuilders use. [/quote'] Maybe you're right, but they're not extra-terrestrials, the difference can't be SO huge that we need to triple the amount of proteins. Or maybe yes. But maybe also more proteins won't change anything; working harder would. We don't make muscles just by eating proteins, it would be pretty easy. This being said, I don't mind if she wants to eat a ton of proteins, maybe it's better this way, so she won't be worried about a protein deficiency, and after the comps she can make a test with less proteins if she wants to. She asks a question, it's a forum board, so people give their opinion, and it's good that there's different opinions. If some people feel the bodybuilding aspect of the forum is in danger just for this... what can I say. I agree that bodybuilding IS what this forum is about, or should be, but I don't see how it's a problem for anyone that some people say we need less proteins. Looks like a weird form of discrimination. If more and more people are taking the "low" protein side, which is what you admit, you should start to ask yourself why, and not always say that nobody is doing it - it's a contradiction. (btw when I say "you", I don't mean only VeggiePrincess, I was thinking more about another person, and people in general). Sorry for my rant...

[Couture547]

I have talked to many Vegan bodybuilders who are currently competing and none of them did it on 50 grams of protein. The ones who are actually in the arena and competing did it with the foundation of tried and true bodybuilding principles that have been shown to work for many decades. And that is not low protein. It doesen't mean taking in as much protein as the omni's... but they sure the heck didn't get there by low protein intake either.

Precisely, they didn't do it with 50 grams of proteins, so what do they know? Who tried it? The protein myth is deeply rooted. I haven't always been on "low" protein. What is "low", what is enough, what is high ? How much do you suggest her to take? Who said she should eat no proteins or low proteins ? Nobody. Of course she needs high proteins. I consider 1g/kg of bodyweight being high. Let's say someone of 70kg, that's 70 g proteins per day. Add maybe an extra 10 or 15 grams if you want. That's for bodybuilders. It is now aproved that 0,5g/kg is enough for sedentary people. Double that for bodybuilders. I'm not saying that 120, 150 or 200 g of proteins won't have good results for bodybuilders, I'm just saying that less proteins would give the same results, without causing a negative calcium balance, decreased energy (proteins are not the best energy source at all, the digestion of proteins is harder and longer, the metabolism of proteins results in more metabolite and purine, imparing on muscular effort) and other health issues.

Of course' date=' anyone can find the extremely low number of EXCEPTIONS to the rule. That's exaclty what they are... genetic exceptions of people who can build muscle and get shredded easily without following principles that most bodybuilders use. [/quote'] Maybe you're right, but they're not extra-terrestrials, the difference can't be SO huge that we need to triple the amount of proteins. Or maybe yes. But maybe also more proteins won't change anything; working harder would. We don't make muscles just by eating proteins, it would be pretty easy. This being said, I don't mind if she wants to eat a ton of proteins, maybe it's better this way, so she won't be worried about a protein deficiency, and after the comps she can make a test with less proteins if she wants to. She asks a question, it's a forum board, so people give their opinion, and it's good that there's different opinions. If some people feel the bodybuilding aspect of the forum is in danger just for this... what can I say. I agree that bodybuilding IS what this forum is about, or should be, but I don't see how it's a problem for anyone that some people say we need less proteins. Looks like a weird form of discrimination. If more and more people are taking the "low" protein side, which is what you admit, you should start to ask yourself why, and not always say that nobody is doing it - it's a contradiction. (btw when I say "you", I don't mean only VeggiePrincess, I was thinking more about another person, and people in general). Sorry for my rant...

 

 

I agree. I've been on every diet there is and every gram amounts of protein from very little to a ton over 300 when i was on tons of powders and potions and never noticed any thing. The only times i've ever got bad results from training was when i wasn't eatting enough carbs and over all calories. I've been on diets where i'm getting 20/50/30 type things and got garbage strength increases. Those types of diets are good for one thing and that's getting extremely cut and working with the muscle you all ready have build no building alot of new muscle/ strength

[Vegan Joe]

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http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/uploaded_images/Dallas-tanker-741719.jpg

[Vegan Joe]

...

 

http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/uploaded_images/Dallas-tanker-741719.jpg

[veggieprincess]

VP, thank you for your honesty on this thread. I came to this site because it's called veganBODYBUILDING.com and while I'm holding on to my vegan lifestyle, it's tough to keep up if you want to one day compete.

 

There is a vegan bodybuilding yahoo group. You can look at the message list. It seems to be active and talking about body building

 

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/veganbodybuilding/messages

 

HTH

 

How funny, one of my clients is the most active member on there. I peeked at her Vegan Fitness blog too that I didn't know she had. Nice to see she's respecting my wishes on all 3 forums and not posting her diet. She is doing awesome! Thanks for the link

[Fallen_Horse]

Nice to see she's respecting my wishes on all 3 forums and not posting her diet.

Oh I never really thought about that. Trade secrets!

[Im Your Man]

...

 

http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/uploaded_images/Dallas-tanker-741719.jpg

[Fallen_Horse]

Why do we keep blowing things up again?

[Vegan Joe]

Why do we keep blowing things up again?

I call it spinning out of control, crash and burn advice.

[New World Vegan]

It's sad that a bunch of vegans irritate me. WHY do you waste time arguing?

 

When people say you don't need to be concerned about protein, I think they mean it's hard to get too little. I can get 70 grams a day without thinking about it. I used to get 100. It never did me any good.

 

When people say you don't need protein, they mean you need amino acids that the body makes protein from.

 

I'm a smart and wise 40 year old who lifts weighs. And when I read stuff like

http://www.charliesgym.info/wst_page2.html

from a fruit and nut eater, and think about what gorrillas and elephants eat, it makes perfect sense.

 

Alot of you are forgetting:

 

* Top bodybuilders are on steroids(meat if full of them)

* "Top" bodybuilders have bulk(bulk's not the muscle everyone thinks it is. It's water retention, fat and other storage)

 

Those are the only reasons vegans aren't at the top(and that vegans are 1% of the population makes it statistically unlikely)

 

And the low protein people are forgetting to say is: to thrive on less protein, etc, your body needs to be clean and effecient(raw diet), and be adapted to the diet....AND, it takes months to years. Alotof people aren't up to that, and that's fine.(so no need to argue about protein).

 

For the heavy protein proponants: Are you doing as well as top builders? You would, if protein is the most important factor. It's not. It's genes.)

 

People who know things have better things to do.

 

That's why Bigbwii isn't here.

[veggieprincess]

It's sad that a bunch of vegans irritate me. WHY do you waste time arguing?

 

I cannot help but shake my head at the irony of this statement...

 

Let me tell you why I am irked at many of the posts on this thread.

 

The Original Poster was asking about something very specific... AN NPC SHOW...

 

She did not ask how healthy you feel her diet was...

 

She did not ask if she was doing the right thing by focusing on protein....

 

She did not ask us for a moral, ethical, unethical... healthy or unhealthy diagnosis of her diet...

 

SHE ASKED ABOUT A DIET FOR AN NPC SHOW... something that I know a little about since I have many NPC figure competitor friends, I have met many NPC figure competitor coaches and I've had a 10 year obsession of getting my hands on anything and anything figure competitor related...

 

Yet she was bombarded with peoples OPINIONS of protein.

 

Yes, there is a very specific formula that 99% of competitors follow to get to their goals. That formula (along with a proper training program) will get anyone that follows it a physique that can stand proudly amongst the competitors on the stage. Is there more than 1 formula? Yes, but 95% of competitors do it with a 1 gram per pound of bodyweight minimum FOR THAT PARTICULAR DIVISION... NPC. This is not my OPINION. This is based on a formula that has BEEN PROVEN to work for people for decades.

 

So who has earned the right to be annoyed? I'm so sorry... but I think I have (yes, that was a bit of sarcasm, in case it didn't translate.)

 

Need examples. OK... well I'll give you an example of 100% of Omnis I talked to... it really is pointless for me to name names there... cuz we're not omnis... so I'll throw out a couple other examples....

 

Let me think... hmmm.. OH YES... Robert Cheeke! He doesen't talk about it on these threads but him and I had a long conversation about diet and he told me that when prepping for his SHOWS, he used a 1 gram per pound of bodyweight MINIMUM as a gauge for his protein intake during comp prep. Robert also told me about a Vegan competitor who does about 4 shows a year (he's on the board, but I can't remember his name) who tried to reduce his protein to compete and ended going back up to 2 grams per lb bodyweight because he lost so much size during his experiment. Denise Nicole...an actual figure competitor.. I have read several posts that her physique performs best on 1.5 grams per lb bodyweight. I haven't done a show but I got down to 12% - 13% bodyfat and a look that I was pretty happy with on 1 gram per pound of bodyweight. A couple of ACTUAL competitors whom have found me through myspace discussed their diet with me and they consume 1 to 1.5 grams protein per pound of bodyweight. Not too mention Vegan clients I have sent to my trainer.

 

There are some that consume a little less to compete and I'm sure we could spend all day long debating the small majority that don't use this formula but most COMPETITORS do.

 

So that is what irks me about so many posts in this thread... I've learn to just shake my head and stay positive at the dozens of threads that are posted monthly with people discouraging non-competitors to not focus on protein BECAUSE THEY AREN'T COMPETING.

 

But when someone starts a post and says... "Hey... I'm an OMNI and I want to be a Vegan and I want to do an NPC show".... my god... why can't we listen to the actual words.

 

I think I've posted a total of 2 posts ever in the Raw Food section because I'm not a raw Vegan. Nor am I a cyclist or martial arts enthusiast... so why the hell would I be posting on threads I know nothing about??? Yet, I do know a little something about this...therefore I am insulted that you're insulted New World Vegan...

 

(Oh, and I forgot to add one... Lean and Green... you know, the highly respected RAW vegan on this board??? He contributes his significant mass muscle gains on his juice fast to the 200 grams of Spirulina he was consuming daily... )

[DV]

Well spoken as usual, VeggiePrincess.

[Im Your Man]

Strange that some people feel offended by everything, I feel offended by nothing. Conflicts come from within.

This being said, she didn't just say "Hey... I'm an OMNI and I want to be a Vegan and I want to do an NPC show"... Read the title of the thread.

A group of persons have the right to say she needs 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight, a second group have the right to say 1g per kilo of bodyweight is perfect. When someone claims that the second group don't know nothing, this person is just proving she doesn't know nothing. If you cut your protein intake by half, don't expect to have good results if you keep using the same processed proteins, because you need a lot of this stuff; you need to ingest high quality raw amino acids from natural, unprocessed foods, on empty stomach and not mixed with sugar or other crap.

Just look at the profiles of some powerful foods like alfalfa and fenugreek sprouts or avocado offering the amino acids with the best digestibility on earth, and come back saying this worth less than some powders coming from a factory.

Well spoken as usual, I'm Your Man. Thank you

[Guest]

Strange that some people feel offended by everything, I feel offended by nothing. Conflicts come from within.

This being said, she didn't just say "Hey... I'm an OMNI and I want to be a Vegan and I want to do an NPC show"... Read the title of the thread.

A group of persons have the right to say she needs 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight, a second group have the right to say 1g per kilo of bodyweight is perfect. When someone claims that the second group don't know nothing, this person is just proving she doesn't know nothing. If you cut your protein intake by half, don't expect to have good results if you keep using the same processed proteins, because you need a lot of this stuff; you need to ingest high quality raw amino acids from natural, unprocessed foods, on empty stomach and not mixed with sugar or other crap.

Just look at the profiles of some powerful foods like alfalfa and fenugreek sprouts or avocado offering the amino acids with the best digestibility on earth, and come back saying this worth less than some powders coming from a factory.

Well spoken as usual, I'm Your Man. Thank you

 

Could you possibly be even more annoying? Your argumentation is extremely akin to those who still argue that the Earth is flat, or that oranges are not orange... Or that there is an invisible, fire-breathing dragon in your garage.

[xjohanx]

What the princess said x1000! Well put.

[Im Your Man]

 

Could you possibly be even more annoying? Your argumentation is extremely akin to those who still argue that the Earth is flat, or that oranges are not orange... Or that there is an invisible, fire-breathing dragon in your garage.

you have a great imagination.

[New World Vegan]

I didn't say I was insulted; and I'm not putting any individuals down. I just don't think there's a reason to argue.....and I don't wish to contribute to this continuing....so this will be my last post on this thread.

 

tried to reduce his protein to compete and ended going back up to 2 grams per lb bodyweight because he lost so much size during his experiment.

 

Yes, but I just want people to be aware that the weight wasn't all muscle; in case you care.

 

veggieprincess, you said that the formula (along with a proper training program) will get anyone that follows it a great physique. Doesn't everyone here know the term: Hardgainer? I'm one. I can't gain much muscle, and I've tried "all the above" since 1982.

 

Then there's the easy gainers with the right genes.

 

This is common stuff.....Why are we having an argument?

 

I'll now give you the last word. Peace.

[Couture547]

If in fact as a Vegan you must comsume processed isolated protein powers to gain muscle then that would mean the Vegan diet isn't ideal for strength/ athletics and will allways for short of a omni diet and it's flawed. I don't get why but i see alot of vegans in hear stuck in the whole Protein protein protein minset to build muscle. The body only needs and uses the massive amounts of protein if your starved for carbs. Like i've said before when building muscle 20 percent protein is more than enough for anyone and the only thing that needs to be ajusted is calorie amount (depending on the person) and the protein will be where it needs to be. It's the supplement industry/ meat industry that has people so brain washed

 

If your eatting 4000 calories a day and 20 percent from protein that comes out to 200 grams a day. What girl needs more then that?

[veggieprincess]

If in fact as a Vegan you must comsume processed isolated protein powers to gain muscle then that would mean the Vegan diet isn't ideal for strength/ athletics and will allways for short of a omni diet and it's flawed.

 

So anyone who consumes protein powders is "just like and Omni" in your world, huh? That's just lovely.

 

If your eatting 4000 calories a day and 20 percent from protein that comes out to 200 grams a day. What girl needs more then that?

 

No figure competitor could consume 4000 calories for comp prep. They would need to roll her onto the stage because she would gain so much fat. Same with 3000 and most would even gain too much fat on 2000 or 2500. What you are suggesting is too many calories to get a cut, muscular look for most figure competitors. I would look like a Sumo wrestler on 3000 or 4000 calories.

 

A diet only needs 10-20 percent protein to be a healthy body building diet.

 

As I said before, she wasn’t asking you to evaluate her diet for “healthiness”. She was asking about Vegan sources that are high in protein and about a diet for an NPC show.

 

 

It's impossible to get more then 25 percent protein on a healthy diet.

What are you basing this statement on? My diet is anywhere between 28 and 35% protein and I've plugged it into several dietary software programs and I am OFF THE CHARTS in every single recommended Vitamin and Mineral and then some. I supplement with calcium, drink a ton of water and I'm one of the healthiest people I know.

 

Those girls are most likely on some sort of drugs or at least legal test boosters of some sort. Girls start developing hormonal issues when they drop below around 13 percent bf and by the looks of it there around 5. There's some thing going on when a girl is bigger then most the big lean guys on here. basically alot of people on here buy into alot of the main stream/ meat/ supplement propaganda saying you need massive amount of protein or your diet should be 20/50/30.

 

Ugh... yes, some figure girls take illegal drugs to acheive their look AND SOME DON'T. There are many natural competitors that would never think of taking anything. They would be the first to tell you they have a harder road because they refuse to take anything, but they wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I can't help but shake my head at how negative you are about the sport. If a Vegan were to become an IFBB Figure Pro, do you have any idea how many people she would inspire to try out a Vegan lifestyle? Yet, you almost sound like the idea of someone having this dream offends you. It astounds me.

 

And you're "guess" of 5% for a figure competitor is incorrect. They diet down to anywhere between 9 and 15% but that is for a very short period of time and right before the show. They do not stay at this level.

[thendanisays]

i have never competed myself, BUT I will say this. When i started lifting heavy ass weights about two years ago, my diet was about 60/20/20 and although i got stronger, physically my body barely changed WHATSOEVER and this was for about a year and a half.

 

after working with veggieprincess and replacing many of my daily calories with protein, which changed this ratio to about 35 % protein i saw phenomonal results as far as cutting up went. the difference was night and day.

 

the proof is in the vegan pudding. she knows her shit.

[beforewisdom]

VP, I think you are banging your head against a stone wall. I don't think these guys would agree with you if you told them the sky is blue. Courtre told me the other day that the strongest animals in the world eat raw diets. When I told him that different animals have different physiologies, organs, needs etc. he brushed that off by telling me that is an excuse omnis use to dismiss veganism. This guy has never been responsible for feeding a pet and/or has never had a biology class in his life. If he isn't going to accept a basic fact like different animals have different needs what makes you think he is capable of understanding that you as a figure competitor might know more about diets for figure competitions then he does, never having been a figure competitor?

 

He drank the raw kool aide

[Im Your Man]

VP, I think you are banging your head against a stone wall. I don't think these guys would agree with you if you told them the sky is blue. Courtre told me the other day that the strongest animals in the world eat raw diets. When I told him that different animals have different physiologies, organs, needs etc. he brushed that off by telling me that is an excuse omnis use to dismiss veganism. This guy has never been responsible for feeding a pet and/or has never had a biology class in his life. If he isn't going to accept a basic fact like different animals have different needs what makes you think he is capable of understanding that you as a figure competitor might know more about diets for figure competitions then he does, never having been a figure competitor?

 

He drank the raw kool aide

that's a pretty pathetic post.

[Guest]

that's a pretty pathetic post.

 

And why's that? It's got the word "raw" mentioned TWICE! Should suit you well, I suppose.

 

+infinity to what veggieprincess said.