mango19 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Brutally honestly, do vegans sacrifice muscle thickness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Plaything Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAINRA Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 No... we just don't have growth hormone in our protein... We don't loose thickness. That is training related. Thickness is based on lifting heavy. which makes our process a hell of a lot more natural. Bovine growth hormone aids in pumping up but in a not so healthy way. This is why whey drinkers seem to faster muscle it is like if I were on some doses of steroids. I would see results faster. So this is why you might be wondering why do you see vegans take longer to build same muscle again that is not always the case because everyones body is different. Not because whey is better but because whey promotes growth in a steroid like way. * Steroid based sex hormones (e.g., testosterone, etc.) * Growth hormones and or growth factors (e.g., IGF-1, bovine growth hormone or bovine somatotropin, etc) The occurrence of the main steroid hormones (oestrone, oestradiol, testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, androstenedione), especially in milk and eggs, for example lets single out oestrone from this list. When animals are pregnant their bodies produce more hormones so that their babies can grow. http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/2/221 Now apply that to a person who no longer grows... and is adding their own workouts to the extra hormones they take. It is going to increase growth. As most of us here realized here we are not cows, goats or other animals, we are humans.IF you workout large muscle is will cause more testosterone in your own body to grow. This is the natural way. The extra protein will fix muscle damage. Now that is up to everyone... you can do it fast and get the quick fix or you can do it naturally and healthfully. more linkshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin-like_growth_factor_1 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7C-4KNMB0V-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=33bb5877fc3cdf9450f2fa2fdb98eea1 http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/4/1520 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Vegans do not sacrifice anything But in relationship to thickness, if you put a whey eating BBer and a Vegan protein eating BBer, that have the same workout routines and same build, the bodies would be the same (like twins competing with one a vegan and the other veggie with whey). It is all the "other" things that work synergistically together, even the synthetic stuff, that make the ultimate thickness that you may be commenting on. A vegan has the choice to use enhancements upon his genetics to increase his thickness, but there will be a trade off in taking that stuff to push the envelope. Something will have to give, and it might not be at that time - but down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I out lift all of my omni friends except for the one who is a hardcore bobybuilder and eats way more protein than me and is now taking human growth hormone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Brutally honestly, do vegans sacrifice muscle thickness?At a high level, yes. Look at the top vegan bodybuilders, and then look at the top (natural) bodybuilders, and you can DEFINITELY see a difference. For the other 99% of us? It's really nothing to worry about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Why would it be a difference between vegan proteins and whey protein ? Beside maybe the grownt hormones effect that RAINRA talked about, I don't see any reasons, because whatever the protein is and from what it comes from, it then has to be transformed into human proteins. So as long as you get all the essential amino acids, the body is able to assemble human amino acid chains with that, and I've read that hemp amino acids profile is what is the most identic to human protein. What makes calves grow faster than human babies is not because whey is superior, it is because it is superior for calves, and becaus eit is higher in proteins and fats than human milk, but especially because calves are designed to grow fast like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Brutally honestly, do vegans sacrifice muscle thickness?At a high level, yes. Look at the top vegan bodybuilders, and then look at the top (natural) bodybuilders, and you can DEFINITELY see a difference. For the other 99% of us? It's really nothing to worry about... I don't think it's a good comparision to make, as there are far more natural bodybuilders than vegan bodybuilders. High % of the natural bb don't reach the physique of those at the top. So with less vegan bb, there's even less bb reaching that same physique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 If by 'even less' you mean 'none', then I agree. I haven't seen a vegan bber that can compare to a 'natural' bber... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 If by 'even less' you mean 'none', then I agree. I haven't seen a vegan bber that can compare to a 'natural' bber... I've seen some impressive vegan BBers, but they are few and far between. Though, I think it's only a matter of time before we see more people getting into BBing that are vegan and will take things far. Right now, with probably only a few hundred vegan lifters out there, we've got a small pool to work from, but as our numbers grow, I think we'll eventually be surprised by how well some people will do with building their physique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAINRA Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 The way I like to think of it is like the story of the tortoise and the hare. We will eventually get there, thrive and in just in a much better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I would like to point out that each food has different amounts of different amino acids (protein units), and just because they have the amino acid profile listed doesn't mean that the body absorbs them. It is all about digestion I think (and the timing and diligence to adhere to diet that utilizes the body's genetics to absorb as much nutrients as it optimal needs). Cause it might not be all about protein for your body. Do you have enough of the other nutrients (calcium, zinc, potassium, B12, etc.) to support an optimal metabolism and not bottleneck it? In nature, it is not just one thing, it is a multifactorial process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Plaything Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Growth hormone through whey? What are you guys talking about? If the body is capable of producing more hormones through some protein, then the effect would be so marginal that you'd ceratinly not even notice it... it's definitely not comparable to taking exogenic growth hormones or synthetic hormones, like steroids... Edit: Sorry, just looked at the article... I still maintain that for a significant effect you would have to take in loads of whey. This is probably comparable to the effect that spinach could have when taken in at a dosage of >1kg per day for a long time... But at digestible dosages, there will hardly be an effect. http://genxxl.com/diet-nutrition/spinach-has-steroid-effect/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I don't think I could have said it much better than RAINRA. In my personal experience (lifting heavily as a meat eater and whey drinker in the 1990's compared to vegan lifting in the 2000's), I think you make greater gains and much faster using whey, for sure. Your muscles get pumped up faster in just a few weeks, and you can lift heavier. But, once you go "off" the whey shakes or stop lifting for a while, your muscles rapidly go to almost nothing, or just a bit higher than the base of where you had started. For example, when I was 19, after my freshman year of college, I could lift, roughly, incline bench of 185 x 6, deadlift 315, biceps 40 pound dumbbells 10 on year arm...etc. I was 190, with fairly low body fat, maybe 8% or so. When I went on a three week backpacking trip to Europe, on an extreme budget (and barely eating two or sometime three meals per day) I lost 20 pounds, almost all of it, it would seem, from muscle. Granted, I gained it back fairly quickly once I started training again, but it did make me wonder. Similar things happened a year later. I went from being fairly huge, to a slim 180 in a matter of a month after stopping whey shakes, and only doing moderate training. On the other hand, I notice now, as a vegan, my muscles look a look thicker and, to some (limited) extent, more "grain-y"er than they did in the whey days. Perhaps that is simple muscle maturity (since I'm older), but I do wonder, to what extent, is it due to how it was put on, and at what rate. Also, if you look at some of the better vegan bodybuilders, their muscles sometimes seem to have a more dense look than similar meat eaters. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part, and I'd love to know more about the science invloved. So, I think I would suggest that vegans give up speed of muscle growth and strength (in the short/medium run), while perhaps gaining a bit of denseness of "grainy-ness", which in a sense, is "thickness", depending on your point of view. I may be wrong though. As a side note, however, for those who may be reading this page as lifters who currently eat meat and drink whey but are considering going vegan (but are afraid of losing grains), I'd highly recommend the "China Study" as it goes into good details about how animal protein causes foci of cancer cells to grow rapidly. In light of numerous scientific studies showing how animal protein promotes cancer, I think it wouldn't be wise to drink masive quantities of whey (or other animal proteins) from a health point of view, not to mention the animal rights and environmental points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seitan_man Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 In my personal experience (lifting heavily as a meat eater and whey drinker in the 1990's compared to vegan lifting in the 2000's), I think you make greater gains and much faster using whey, for sure. Your muscles get pumped up faster in just a few weeks, and you can lift heavier. But, once you go "off" the whey shakes or stop lifting for a while, your muscles rapidly go to almost nothing, or just a bit higher than the base of where you had started. This is very interesting. If hemp is as a good a protein as people say, what properties does whey possess that enables such better gains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 This is very interesting. If hemp is as a good a protein as people say, what properties does whey possess that enables such better gains? I'm afraid I don't have a command of the science to tell you. However, if you go back and listen to the 10.14.2008 podcast of "Pro Bodybuilding Weekly" (a great podcast, by the way) in "Pep Talk", Larry Peppy interviews the guy, Dr. Scott Connelly, who invented what turned out to be Met-rex, back in the day. It's really an interesting story. (Although in a later interview he recommends something like 200 grams of animal protein per day, which is f-cking insane from a health point of view, but the story of how Metrex is an interesting story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veggieprincess Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Brutally honestly, do vegans sacrifice muscle thickness?At a high level, yes. Look at the top vegan bodybuilders, and then look at the top (natural) bodybuilders, and you can DEFINITELY see a difference. For the other 99% of us? It's really nothing to worry about... not in people like Joe DeMarco... I don't think you can see a difference in him whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Brutally honestly, do vegans sacrifice muscle thickness? No. FWIW, the professional bodybuilders you see in muscle magazines not only eat animal products, but like vegan weight lifters, take protein supplements. They also take drugs. Natural bodybuilders are smaller. There haven't been enough vegan bodybuilders yet, natural or non-natural, to answer your question. If it turns out that vegans can't get as big as the pro bodybuilders I would be fine with that. I've been big as a vegan and that was big enough for me. There are plenty of great things in life so I don't think there is a need for anyone to feel they missed out on anything by not being ridiculously big. Especially when they get the satisfaction of living their ethics, health, and a beautiful lifestyle in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVegan Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I've seen some impressive vegan BBers, but they are few and far between.Could you drop some names (either here on the board or by PM) so I can look into it further? Not trying to be contradictory - I'm genuinely interested in finding pics, because I'm having the most trouble convincing my friends that building muscle mass won't be a problem. I know of the late Roy Hilligenn (looking awesome in my avatar), Joe DeMarco, Alex Dargatz, and our awesome Admin Robert . Any other competitors? I'm always on the lookout for more motivation. Thanks. If hemp is as a good a protein as people say, what properties does whey possess that enables such better gains?I believe it has to do with the amino acid profile and the protein efficiency, but I'd have to look into hemp protein more, as I'm not very familiar with it. Basically, the body absorbs whey very quickly and efficiently and puts it to "work" rebuilding muscle tissue. I actually hear very good things about rice protein being an effective supplement, even moreso than hemp. But again, I need to look into it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veggieprincess Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 I've seen some impressive vegan BBers, but they are few and far between.Could you drop some names (either here on the board or by PM) so I can look into it further? Dr. Joe DeMarco... seriously impressive! all natural, all Vegan competitor who has competed in non-natural competitions and won! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Joe just isn't that big IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Joe is very short too. Still looks great though, but he was not always a vegan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubby2112 Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 And don't forget Avi Lehyani. Expecting vegan bodybuilders to compete with omnivores is like expecting a small private college to compete with the combined team of five of the largest universities in NCAA sports. It is like expecting Luxembourg to dominate the Olympics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVegan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Expecting vegan bodybuilders to compete with omnivores ... It is like expecting Luxembourg to dominate the Olympics.LOL. Nice analogy. And regarding DeMarco, well, "even though" he's 5'4", 150...http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3291/joe20demarco20side20triuz2.jpghttp://img153.imageshack.us/img153/joe20demarco20side20triuz2.jpg/1/w215.png You can't say that's not impressive. According to his profile here, he was vegetarian for several years, then fell back into omnivorism, and then became vegan (and a PETA member) a few years ago. So while one could argue that he built some of his muscle with meat, he has been competing, and winning, as a vegan for several recent years now. In my mind, that's proof positive of solid results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorVegan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Joe just isn't that big IMO... Zane's not exactly huge either (5'9", 185) but still...http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9360/fz61ao4.jpghttp://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9265/fz50ms1.jpghttp://img356.imageshack.us/img356/fz50ms1.jpg/1/w217.png As the saying goes, it's not the actual size that counts, it's how big you look. Wait... that didn't sound right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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