Im Your Man Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Well I understand those quotes, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen those out of a hundred. Those are my favorites right now : "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." Most of nutrition is theory sitting on top of just a few concrete facts. I agree, for raw and cooked diets, that's why I don't rely on science, but some others still do, that's a mystery. It shouldn't be anathema to admit that your personal beliefs are just theories. Back up what you can with hard science and admit that the rest is conjecture. But please realize that anecdotal evidence or isolated cases aren't scientifically valid. Not for 100% raw or 1g/lb of protein per day or 811 or fruitarianism or food vibrations or keto. Not for anything, across the board. You forgot to mention cooked food too, but I guess it's included in "anything". But anecdotal evidence or isolated cases are still real, and there's thousands of "isolated" cases. Well to me, reality is more real than science. That's why we have some folks in here for whom raw didn't work at all, and they needed to switch. We have others who are thriving on it.I don't believe this. That "What is food for one, is a poison for the other", got any proof for that ? that you can "Back up (...) with hard science" ? For who caffeine, chips and cheeseburgers are good, uh? Those are poisons for everybody. Know anyone for whom cyanure is good? Don't think so. Know anyone for whom fruits and greens are poisons? I doubt it. It changes from a specie to another, but all members of the same specie have about similar genetic codes, with the same optimal diet. Of course there's some people with better genes than others, like a smoker smoking 2 packs of cigarettes who may live 90 years old while a young person dies of a lung cancer at the age of 22 due to secondary smoke without have smoked a single cigarette, but that doesn't make cigarettes good for the first guy, it is still a poison as powerful in both cases. It's just that some people are more resistant to poisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acesfull Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 just try to maintain an open mind, man. its good to be open to all possibilities imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blabbate Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Most of nutrition is theory sitting on top of just a few concrete facts. I agree, for raw and cooked diets, that's why I don't rely on science, but some others still do, that's a mystery.You can rely on some basic biology, but everything else is conjecture, sure. It shouldn't be anathema to admit that your personal beliefs are just theories. Back up what you can with hard science and admit that the rest is conjecture. But please realize that anecdotal evidence or isolated cases aren't scientifically valid. Not for 100% raw or 1g/lb of protein per day or 811 or fruitarianism or food vibrations or keto. Not for anything, across the board. You forgot to mention cooked food too, but I guess it's included in "anything". But anecdotal evidence or isolated cases are still real, and there's thousands of "isolated" cases. Cooked food is definitely included, sure. And I'm sure there are plenty of isolated cases. (No need to put quotation marks around the word; they really are isolated.) That doesn't magically make them proof. Well to me, reality is more real than science. You don't know that what you believe is reality. When you look at the isolated cases mentioned above, how do you know that, for instance, what you're seeing is not only the result of a raw diet, but can be repeated in a different individual? How do you know it's not the result of a multitude of other internal and external factors? You don't. In fact, you can't, unless you're controlling for those factors. Yet even in the face of this obvious dearth of knowledge, you insist you know what's going on. Reality (depending on how you define it) certainly is more real than science. Science is a tool we use to try to understand reality. Our individual personal experiences are educated guesses and abstractions. Taken by themselves, they prove little. But the scientific method lets us structure and combine these observations into a meaningful aggregate and get a little closer to reality. Your problem is that you believe you have a shortcut to the truth that doesn't require experimentation and proper control and repeatable testing. That's why we have some folks in here for whom raw didn't work at all, and they needed to switch. We have others who are thriving on it.I don't believe this. That "What is food for one, is a poison for the other", got any proof for that ? that you can "Back up (...) with hard science" ? That's not what I said, but that's ok. If you want an example, just look at any food allergy. Lactose intolerance. If you have an iodine deficiency, the goitrogens in raw broccoli can cause enlarged thyroid. But I'm not saying that a raw diet might be poisonous for many people. I'm saying it might not be ideal. The same is true of cooked food or any other diet. For who caffeine, chips and cheeseburgers are good, uh? Those are poisons for everybody. Know anyone for whom cyanure is good? Don't think so. Nobody claimed any of that. But yes, caffeine can be good in moderation, sure. Chips and cheeseburgers not so much. Know anyone for whom fruits and greens are poisons? I doubt it. It changes from a specie to another, but all members of the same specie have about similar genetic codes, with the same optimal diet. See above about iodine deficiencies. Oxalic acid can also be poisonous. And hemlock is poisonous to everyone. And actually, now that we're mapping genomes, we know that our individual genomes are much more varied than previously believed. And genetic similarities tend to cluster based on geography. Europeans developed higher lactase retention post-infancy, for instance, while many Asians did not. The notion of an optimal diet is silly. What would you base it on? Thanks to evolutionary variability, optimal nutrition varies by age, gender, geography, individual genetic variation, and countless other factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New World Vegan Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 GodDAMNIT there is no such thing as 'vibrations'!!....Seriously WTF. What quacko came up with that idea... Quantum Physicists. I think the word vibration refers to the energy everything has. Quantum Physics has really expanded. You all should catch up. I really can't believe this arguing continues(with insults and bad language). This is what drives people away. This place will become more un-appealing unless some policing is done. "I'm your man" - Thanks for the support. I don't usually stick around for sense-less arguments. And you shouldn't either. At this point, they're not un-educated, they have 'issues'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilary wright Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 What also drives people away is factless pontificating, raw bible thumping babble, and smug, holier (smarter) than thou attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaN Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Im glad we have all agreed that neither raw or anti-raw is correct, & that infact a balance is needed.I repeat: >Some foods loose nutrients in the cooking process.In any cooking process.Raw: 1 point >Some foods become edible & more nutritious when cooked.Cooked: 1 point Someone above also mentioned that the arguing & petty comments are a real put off to new members & to veganism at all.I agree.Those of you who consistently bait others know who you are.Stop it, & grow up.If you think someones opinions are crazy, say so, but in a polite way.Its a shame the admins are not policing this behavior more.I will be raising it with them.Guys this has got to stop. Hillary wrote: Quoting someone does not validate your theories, or put you in the same league as them . . . feel free to quote Einstein all you want.Bruce makes an excellent point . . . everyone responds differently to specific diets. A serious comment that expresses your opinion, without any sneaky jokes or sarcasm! I knew you had it in you Hillary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blabbate Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 GodDAMNIT there is no such thing as 'vibrations'!!....Seriously WTF. What quacko came up with that idea...Quantum Physicists. I think the word vibration refers to the energy everything has. Quantum Physics has really expanded. You all should catch up.Well then, if you're going to act condescending, why don't you help us "catch up?" Please explain how quantum vibrations have anything to do with whether certain foods are good or bad for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blabbate Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Someone above also mentioned that the arguing & petty comments are a real put off to new members & to veganism at all.I agree.Those of you who consistently bait others know who you are.Stop it, & grow up.If you think someones opinions are crazy, say so, but in a polite way.Its a shame the admins are not policing this behavior more.I will be raising it with them.Guys this has got to stop.Actually, I think IYM and I are being quite civil here. I disagree with him, but he's a nice guy, so it's easy to be polite. I hope we aren't who you're referring to, since asking the admins to police civil disagreements (no matter how extensive) seems unnecessarily censorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dropSoul Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I didn't read the entire banter, but there's an old Zen quote: If you're tired, sleep.If you're hungry, eat. So my simple advice: eat more often and eat raw foods that stick to you, nut butters and seeds. Don't be afraid of fats, these are good for you and help us lose fat. I've been eating a LOT more raw lately, just lazy and food processor happy, I love cooking though. So I don't get into a metabolism freakazoid, I just make sure to eat a lot of almonds or other nuts. I made almond butter today, yummmmmmmm@ You're premed student?, your brain needs at least 500 cal. just to function. So eat a lot more and do some meditation, stress can cause a stomach acid surge and you get hungry fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yeah no need to call the police. I disagree with many people and many people disagree with me, but it's impossible that everybody always agree on everything, and I think I always stay polite, at least I try, I don't think I ever insulted someone, I prefer to stay classy, and use irony, sarcasm, or sometimes condescension in an humorous way. Someone asked me to be open minded. I'm opened to everything (except of course to eat animal products or cause pain to an animal... or to try a particularily ing sex act ), but it doesn't mean I have to agree! Concerning vibrations... well one can chose to believe in karma, aura, reincarnation, soul, spirit, etc... There's some energy everywhere and different forms of energy, many things that science can't explain, etc. No need to talk to those non-scientific people as if they were some piece of shit. Sometimes I feel for an apple instead of an orange, and if I eat the apple at this moment my body may respond better and absorb the nutrients more efficiently. Different moments, different moods and energy. The aura surrounding each person is now a scientific fact, filmed by a special camera, with different colours for each person, and changing depending on the emotions, for instance the colors of 2 persons are changing at the sametime as they're kissing. Of course some oatmeal or cooked potatoes don't have an aura, but a raw cherry may have one. Some people stay calm when they don't agree, some others become rabid. But yes, caffeine can be good in moderation, sure. Good to provide endurance by stimulating the neurons, stressing the nervous system; not good for health. A substance doesn't become a poison only when reaching a certain amount, it's a poison or it's not. With a small amount it doesn't become good, it's only less harmful. Magic don't exist. There's no nutrient in caffeine that the body can use. It's not a food. A substance is either food or poison, can't be both at sametime. About the fallacy "What is food for one is a poison for the other", allergies aren't a valid example, they're results of exterior factors from the environment and modern nutrition, pollution, sanitary products, the obsession to disinfect every surfaces and the general fear of germs since the 50's, all the synthetic chemicals contained in food, clothes, objects, etc, caused a phenomenal raise of allergies in the population during the last few decades. The cattle which are supposed to eat only grass, are fed with foods they can't assimilate and use well (casein, gluten, proteins of peanuts, soy...), those products pass through their system and end up in high concentration in their milk, then the human population eat this and even when they're only foetus, so those exact same products are now very common allergens. Lactose intolerance. A few centuries ago, ALL humans were lactose intolerant after the age of about 8 years old, because milk is for babies and we lose our lactase enzymes at this age. After many generations our bodies adapted to digest cow's milk, but can we use this 100% optimally? And the fact we can digest it, does it make it automatically a good food? Over 75% of the world population is still intolerant. We changed how nature made us. That's fine, adaptation is a natural thing, but in a way it's still unnatural to drink cow's milk, or dog milk, or even human milk at adult age. Now I just have a serious question to beforewisdom who said there are scientific facts that prove the 811 diet is deficient. I'm interested to see those facts. I'm not sarcastic or anything. Where are they posted ? Note: a vegan diet is supposed to be B12 deficient from a scientific point of view, but in the reality it seems like it's not. For instance, Lean&Green, who doesn't supplement, got his blood analyzed and his b12 level was fine or even higher than as an omni if I remember well. Even if science says that b12 from algaes ain't absorbed by the human body and even that it drains stored b12 and blocks the absoption of b12. Also, in the 70's, a couple decided to be guinea pigs under strict surveillance in a clinic and eat a 100% raw meat diet, eating all organs (heart, brain, etc) for 1 year. Scientists and doctors were sure they would be Vitamin C deficient after 2-3 months max and would eventually suffer scurvy but none of that happenened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dropSoul Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yes. Everything is nothing moving at different vibrations. Common knowledge, she winks Nothing is Everything's shadow. (Basically a modified Buddha, Meher Baba, Upanishad, etc., quote made up by me.) We're all dreaming this. Enjoy dreaming of eating raw or cooked food, if you thrive on it, whatever floats your proverbial boat, as long as you follow your innermost being's guide so that what you do in your life doesn't cause you to feel guilty or hypocritical, such as eating body parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaserHUN Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 811 is not deficient, I a wnet to a blood test and everything was ok, Balazs gives blood to and he is on 811But I don't get beforewisdom, he jsut says tha a raw food diet is bad etc. etc. etc. and doesn't even tell us what kind of raw food diet he was on, this is like saying that a vegan diet is shit and all you eat are chips and vegan hot dogsAnd if you're hungry on 811, eat more SWEET fruits, and eat lot of greens, make green smoothies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Note: a vegan diet is supposed to be B12 deficient from a scientific point of view, but in the reality it seems like it's not. For instance, Lean&Green, who doesn't supplement, got his blood analyzed and his b12 level was fine or even higher than as an omni if I remember well. Even if science says that b12 from algaes ain't absorbed by the human body and even that it drains stored b12 and blocks the absoption of b12. I don't think it's right to post about others member's health without asking them first. I know a bit more about Lean & Green's health than you do and you are making untrue statements - which could lead others to mistakenly believe that algaes can supply humans with absorbably B12. If he supplements, he hasn't shared that with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 811 is not deficient, I a wnet to a blood test and everything was ok, I've had doctors tell me that blood tests don't always indicate deficiencies, only what is moving around in the blood at the time of the test. But I don't get beforewisdom, he jsut says tha a raw food diet is bad Not true, no "just". I've posted plenty of articles from credentialed health professionals. etc. etc. etc. and doesn't even tell us what kind of raw food diet Not true. In an earlier iteration of this thread I posted that I followed Norman Walkers raw food diet for a full year when I was 14. I followed all of the rules. I was never weaker or sicker in my life. There is even a wikipedia page on Norman Walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Note: a vegan diet is supposed to be B12 deficient from a scientific point of view, but in the reality it seems like it's not. For instance, Lean&Green, who doesn't supplement, got his blood analyzed and his b12 level was fine or even higher than as an omni if I remember well. Even if science says that b12 from algaes ain't absorbed by the human body and even that it drains stored b12 and blocks the absoption of b12. I don't think it's right to post about others member's health without asking them first. I know a bit more about Lean & Green's health than you do and you are making untrue statements - which could lead others to mistakenly believe that algaes can supply humans with absorbably B12. If he supplements, he hasn't shared that with us. In my opinion, when people without credentials who have only read 1 - 2 popular books claim to know more than professionals who have studied, as well as researched, for years then those people will appear to be ignoramuses to other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 No offense. I don't know what you are like as a person in the rest of your life. You are probably a guy I wouldn't mind being friends with if I knew you in person. However, your posts are fairly ignorant and you come off as a smug ignoramus. Perhaps you wouldn't mind being friend with me, but I don't need in my life some people judging me like you do, and even without knowing me; that's acting like a "smug ignoramus". In my opinion, when people without credentials who have only read 1 - 2 popular books claim to know more than professionals who have studied, as well as researched, for years then those people will appear to be ignoramuses to other people. I've read more than 1 or 2 books, and I've read books and studies by the professionals you're talking about, who appear like gods to your eyes. You're an ignorant and shame on you. I read studies on nutrition to laugh, cuz the results always contradict the previous studies, and they make studies on the most ridiculous subjects, most of those on nutrition are as ridiculous as those trying to measure or understand happiness. Laughing is good for health and I thank science for this. He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - show him. He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple - teach him. He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him. He who knows and knows he knows, he is wise - follows him. Bruce Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaserHUN Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'm on 811 and I didn't got sick when lot of people had flue, and I don't feel I need to get a big sleep in the afternoon, and how did Norman Walkers diet looked like? I can't find really good info on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 In an earlier iteration of this thread I posted that I followed Norman Walkers raw food diet for a full year when I was 14. I followed all of the rules. I was never weaker or sicker in my life. There is even a wikipedia page on Norman Walker. You followed all of the rules, including colon cleansing as often as possible ? And juicing is a waste of time, energy, nutrients compared to eating whole fruits or vegetables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'm on 811 and I didn't got sick when lot of people had flue, and I don't feel I need to get a big sleep in the afternoon, and how did Norman Walkers diet looked like? I can't find really good info on that one Tell us that when you've been consistent without cheating for a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 BW, resist the urge to respond!!! To quote Darth Vader, taken out of context of course, "The force is strong with this one!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 In an earlier iteration of this thread I posted that I followed Norman Walkers raw food diet for a full year when I was 14. I followed all of the rules. I was never weaker or sicker in my life. There is even a wikipedia page on Norman Walker. You followed all of the rules, including colon cleansing as often as possible ? And juicing is a waste of time, energy, nutrients compared to eating whole fruits or vegetables. In your earlier posts in this thread you were being willfully ignorant. Now, you are being intentionally rude. To repeat myself, I followed the Norman Walker raw food diet to the letter. I had a juicer and used it. I also do did the colon cleansings via enemas. What can I say? I was foolish, I was 14 years old. What is your excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 BW, resist the urge to respond!!! To quote Darth Vader, taken out of context of course, "The force is strong with this one!" More like his head is strong and I don't mean in nimbleness of the gray matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Your Man Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I was rude, really ? I only asked you a question. Maybe you should read what you write to me, to have a more accurate definition of what rudeness means. I have another question, did you and DV have read Superior Nutrition or any other book from Herbert Shelton, at least some of his articles on the web ? It's never too late, you could learn something. In my opinion, when people without credentials who have only read 1 - 2 popular books claim to know more than professionals who have studied, Well most of the professionals with credentials eat meat, cheese, milk, etc and recommand to do so, go ahead what are you waiting for? I read books about nutrition but I avoid like pest the popular ones; the best ones are the ones people like you don't read. I leave the popular books, movies and music for you, so you can have all the Celine Dions and Harry Potters you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 GodDAMNIT there is no such thing as 'vibrations'!!....Seriously WTF. What quacko came up with that idea... Quantum Physicists. I think the word vibration refers to the energy everything has. Quantum Physics has really expanded. You all should catch up. I really can't believe this arguing continues(with insults and bad language). This is what drives people away. This place will become more un-appealing unless some policing is done. "I'm your man" - Thanks for the support. I don't usually stick around for sense-less arguments. And you shouldn't either. At this point, they're not un-educated, they have 'issues'. Ok, well, hang on. I'M A PHYSICS MAJOR. Please, quantum mechanics has NOTHING to do with 'food vibrations'. The problem is not the concept of 'vibrations' of food, because yes, food does vibrate. Like EVERY other thing in this universe vibrates. Now the vibration hippies try and say that some foods vibrate more in line with our bodies than other foods. And naturally, they pick a random arbitrary definition of what 'good' and 'bad' vibrations are, using tests which have absolutely nothing to do with the scientific method. Why do bananas have good vibrations in the morning, and red meat never has good vibrations? Fsck if they know, because they are just making it up as they go. I'll be sure to let you know if I find any physicists who believe in the power of food vibrations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaserHUN Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 In an earlier iteration of this thread I posted that I followed Norman Walkers raw food diet for a full year when I was 14. I followed all of the rules. I was never weaker or sicker in my life. There is even a wikipedia page on Norman Walker. You followed all of the rules, including colon cleansing as often as possible ? And juicing is a waste of time, energy, nutrients compared to eating whole fruits or vegetables. In your earlier posts in this thread you were being willfully ignorant. Now, you are being intentionally rude. To repeat myself, I followed the Norman Walker raw food diet to the letter. I had a juicer and used it. I also do did the colon cleansings via enemas. What can I say? I was foolish, I was 14 years old. What is your excuse? But you say that all raw food diets are bad, because you followed one persons diet that was not working, lot of people say that a vegan diet is bad after trying it, and they were, like Brendan would say junk food vegans, that's not going to work either, there are lot of raw food diets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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