Steroids?? Let people use them? what are your view's?

[juced_porkchop]

I saw this and thought id post it up and see what you guys thought about this?

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7544754

 

To me I feel hey if you’re not using the animals to make em and are using them responsibly: to each there own if that’s what you feel helps you and is what you want to do.

To me using them responsibly is: you’re healthy and monitoring your health while on them and if anything bad comes up stopping them. NOT using mega doses and figuring mehh if I die I die. To me that’s just stupid.

 

Also I feel if the rule in a sport like: baseball for eg. Is NO steroids then guessing what NO STEROID'S!! or then you ARE cheating PERIOD!

I don’t feel it’s cheating if you on your own, BBing or on level playing grounds where it’s not a rule not to and are willing to use them.

 

Some are willing to do more then others and in my OP: there’s nothing wrong with that.

 

Saw the clip thought id post it along with me 0.2cent's

[Odidnetne]

I don't condone it, and even if it was legal (despite the fact that steroid usage is a Victimless Crime), I can't imagine it would change a lot in sports like BB'ing, since you already have Natural and Professional leagues.

[Guest]

The opinion I had before I watched the vid was mentioned in the clip. I think the various sports leagues and governing bodies should decide if they want to make steriod usage by athletes in their sport illegal.

 

Athletes in most sports, especially team sports, don't have the option of participating in tested or untested leagues like BB and PL.

 

Most people who use steriods are the average gym rat, not a high profile professional athlete. If the health risks are minimal and Joe or Jane Gym Rat wants to use steriods to get bigger or stronger, I don't have a problem with it. It's their body.

[chrisjs]

Most people who use steriods are the average gym rat, not a high profile professional athlete.

I'm sure a lot of professional athletes use steroids or other "performance enhancing" substances. I doubt A-Rod was an exception. Though I think you're right in relative terms, there's a hell of a lot of gym rats out there compared to professional athletes.

 

Anyway I voted I don't care. It's their bodies. As long as they are honest about it (which unfortunately they really can't be expected to be since it's currently illegal) and natural people are able to compete on an "equal" field by not being compared to those who are enhanced.

[pazios2002]

I voted go ahead but what bothers me is when people take credit for things that the substance did. Like ' hey I hold the world record' No you and the drugs do. Without you the drugs could do it with someone else, but you cant do it without the drugs. Give credit to the drugs.

[Guest]

I voted go ahead but what bothers me is when people take credit for things that the substance did. Like ' hey I hold the world record' No you and the drugs do. Without you the drugs could do it with someone else, but you cant do it without the drugs. Give credit to the drugs.

It's hard work and the drugs. Most world class powerlifters and bodybuilders use steriods but can't deadlift 1008lbs (Andy Bolton) or leg press 2300lbs for reps (Ronnie Coleman). LIGHTWEIGHT BABY!

[pazios2002]

I voted go ahead but what bothers me is when people take credit for things that the substance did. Like ' hey I hold the world record' No you and the drugs do. Without you the drugs could do it with someone else, but you cant do it without the drugs. Give credit to the drugs.

It's hard work and the drugs. Most world class powerlifters and bodybuilders use steriods but can't deadlift 1008lbs (Andy Bolton) or leg press 2300lbs for reps (Ronnie Coleman). LIGHTWEIGHT BABY!

 

I am not saying that some people arent genetically superior to others (some would still lift more then others) my point is that they cant lift those weights no matter how much hard work they put in without the drugs. You and I can work just as hard and probably not get close to them with us all (ronnnie, me, you etc.)clean. Lets not pretend that they are any better then us in effort, just effect. I have every confidence that we can work just as viciously in the gym , just not with the same weight.

 

Now do you think that we are going to get the ewws and ahhs that those two do? Of course not, we have to put out the same amount of effort, hold down a full time job or school, and asked to move aside as some guy gets a better vantage point for his pic of them

[MollyMormon]

I don't really give a crap what people do. As far as competitions, they just need to be noted as natural or not. Oh and if they screw up their body we shouldn't have to foot the bill. That means taxpayers and insurance companies. Pay out of pocket.

[pazios2002]

I don't really give a crap what people do. As far as competitions, they just need to be noted as natural or not. Oh and if they screw up their body we shouldn't have to foot the bill. That means taxpayers and insurance companies. Pay out of pocket.

 

 

I like your style.

[VeganEssentials]

I voted "yes" to being able to use if you want, however, I still don't believe that most people should bother as I've stated in other similar threads.

 

First, what is the REAL reason most people use steroids? If you're not a top-level competitive athlete (or, aren't in contention to reach the top level at some point within a few short years), what really is the purpose of going on? Truthfully, NOBODY can reach their natural potential in just a few short years of training - without putting in many years of hard work and paying your dues in training, you'll never really know how far you can advance and what you could accomplish naturally. Even guys I've met who have juiced have said, if you haven't been training intelligently for at least a decade, you're nowhere near your peak of what you could accomplish without steroids. Sadly, most people nowadays are only concerned with getting to their desired goal with the least amount of work in the least amount of time, so way too many people experiment out of impatience rather than it being that they've come close to their natural potential.

 

Even at my largest and strongest a few years back and with about a decade of lifting under me, I knew I was still a ways off from what I could accomplish naturally. And, even if I had hit a wall for some time, what good would it REALLY have done to go on? Sure, I could have probably gained another 20-30 lbs. of muscle and upped my strength another 15-25% with some hard work, but I would NEVER have been a candidate for going pro in any of the strength sports I liked (WAY too many guys that were leaps and bounds ahead of me), and going on would have been solely for ego stroking. As I don't need to impress myself (at least, not any more than I already have ), it would have all been for vanity's sake rather than anything that could make me a top contender in my chosen sport. If you're a professional athlete, or, have trained naturally and are close to being on top but your future in sport depends on moving up a level, then I can understand the rationale for going on. But, those guys I see in the gym who flaunt their use for a mere 10 lbs. more than they'd had a few months before, to me, that's a waste.

 

While I certainly wish I'd known the best diet and training for myself to gain size/strength a decade or so sooner than I eventually learned, I wouldn't trade the journey that got me to where I've been for anything. Speeding up nature via unnatural methods doesn't score more points, and if you haven't already peaked and need such things to reach a level above and beyond, it's not getting you ahead, it's just getting you to the point you'd get naturally with a few years shaved off. Whether I'd achieved my goals naturally at 25, if I reach them this year at 35, or if it takes me another decade, it doesn't matter in the long run. Training with steroids long before you've peaked naturally doesn't let you find out what you respond to best on your own under normal circumstances, so you miss out a lot on learning the most about your body and the best diet/training for your own needs. It isn't the same when you go on a cycle of testosterone and can gain 5 lbs. in a month by eating a few random extra meals and training occasionally in a half-assed manner. Some people can take a low dose with steroids and grow like crazy, others may not get quite as much out of out of it, but NOBODY goes on and finds that they do nothing for them and that they have to work as hard or the same way that they did without them.

 

It shows your true abilities and tests your fortitude the most when you tough it out and need to constantly re-evaluate what you're doing to get optimal results naturally, as you'll know your body the best that way. But, to each their own - if one chooses to spend the money and take the risks (known and unknown) by using steroids, it's their business and that's that. However, if someone chooses to go on, they shouldn't bother to cover it up and B.S. people about it - if you're man/woman enough to use, then be bold enough to admit it openly when asked about it. I still have respect for those that choose to use, but only so long as they don't lie about it and claim to be natural when they aren't remotely close. Lying about use is a sign of weak character - unless it's going to land you in legal hot water for admitting, there's no need to skirt around the truth. Take 'em or don't take 'em, I don't care either way, but if one chooses to do so, don't be shady about it - be honest and at least own up to your actions, because otherwise, you're lying to yourself as much as you are to everyone else.

 

Long-winded, as usual, but does anyone expect less from me?

[xveganjoshx]

I agree with most of your post, but what's this quote about?:

 

most people nowadays are only concerned with getting to their desired goal with the least amount of work in the least amount of time

 

What's wrong with this? Why work harder or more than you have to, to reach the same singular goal (note I'm purposefully taking this OUT of the context of steroids and generalizing the question much like you did with your statement).

[Guest]

I agree with most of your post, but what's this quote about?:

 

most people nowadays are only concerned with getting to their desired goal with the least amount of work in the least amount of time

 

What's wrong with this? Why work harder or more than you have to, to reach the same singular goal (note I'm purposefully taking this OUT of the context of steroids and generalizing the question much like you did with your statement).

What's wrong with it??? People looking for short cuts and quick fixes are lazy and don't won't to work hard to acheive their goals.

[chrisjs]

Why work harder or more than you have to, to reach the same singular goal (note I'm purposefully taking this OUT of the context of steroids and generalizing the question much like you did with your statement).

Agreed. For many people, including myself at times, weightlifting is about the destination, not the journey. As much as I feel really good after lifting, I also hate it in a completely different sort of way. I don't lift because I want the experience of slowly becoming stronger, I do it because I want to be stronger.

 

But it doesn't work that way. You have to put in the time and I have even more respect for it because of that. I don't personally think steroids are a solution (or a worthwhile help) to getting stronger more quickly, but I see the general appeal.

[bronco]

I agree with most of your post, but what's this quote about?:

 

most people nowadays are only concerned with getting to their desired goal with the least amount of work in the least amount of time

 

What's wrong with this? Why work harder or more than you have to, to reach the same singular goal (note I'm purposefully taking this OUT of the context of steroids and generalizing the question much like you did with your statement).

What's wrong with it??? People looking for short cuts and quick fixes are lazy and don't won't to work hard to acheive their goals.

In the general context, I agree with xveganjoshx. Trying to reach your goals with the least amount of work in the least amount of time should in some sense be the goal of any serious athlete. This is not the same as shunning hard work or being lazy, this is about finding the most effective way to achieve your goals. I do think though, that to reach success you have to learn to enjoy the hard work and not only the goal. I'd like to point out once again that I am talking about the general context here, not about using steroids, which I am against.

[VeganEssentials]

I guess I should have specified better on the statement in question.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to reach your goals as quickly as possible. HOWEVER, I don't think that taking the fastest way is the best when the risks can easily outweigh the rewards, or when you're missing out on necessary experience that will benefit you in the long run. Risking a lot to get your hands on some gear to do a cycle so you can try and bulk up to impress girls at spring break is, to me, a stupid reason to want to get to one's goals faster. But, plenty of people will justify the risk for reasons that I'd never even consider, and it's usually because they don't want to pay their dues and wait to get what most of us need to do over a longer period of time naturally. Taking steroids long before you learn your body inside and out is like skipping from elementary school to high school with a big gap in between - you're missing out on some important education that is a lot tougher to re-learn the second time around.

 

This is why I said, if your future in athletics depends on being at the top, I can see some degree of risk. But, to take steroids for almost anyone else, there are two ways to get them:

 

1. Convince a doctor that you "need" testosterone replacement therapy, which for most men under 40, is not even something that you'd have to worry about. Therefore, it's not completely honest, and is being used to circumvent natural progression speeds.

 

2. Get them illegally, which has risks in being ripped off, in being caught by the authorities for purchasing a controlled substance, or getting product that isn't what the label claims (since many people who have juiced complain about fake product on the market, it's always a concern).

 

Option 1 doesn't offer much risk, other than not truly knowing if using will have negative health effects in time. I don't believe a lot of the hype surrounding steroids and the talk of a million bad effects from taking them, but to deny that they might have a negative impact on some people would be denying the truth. I could never take them safely even if I wanted to, since my eye doc told me that it could make my condition worse. There are other health risks that one might not know about until it's too late, so it's always a gamble even when done in the safest manner possible.

 

Option 2, which is the way most people will end up getting their stuff, poses a lot more risk in all areas. No need to cover them all, but would it REALLY be worth it to speed things up a bit and maybe, just maybe, get a bit ahead of your peak natural progression by using them before you've gone as far as you can without them?

 

I'm getting off track a bit, but my point being, it's great to get there faster IF the reward is well worth the risk. People today don't like to think in the long-term as much and want instant gratification - why on earth do you think there are a million get rich quick / lose weight fast type schemes or products out there? We don't want to wait because we think our time is too precious to spend actually working for what we want, and many of us will happily take a gamble with little chance of payoff because we think that faster is ALWAYS better.

 

Now I'm getting into critique of the mentality of modern man/woman, so I'll cap it off there

[Guest]

In the general context, I agree with xveganjoshx. Trying to reach your goals with the least amount of work in the least amount of time should in some sense be the goal of any serious athlete. This is not the same as shunning hard work or being lazy, this is about finding the most effective way to achieve your goals. I do think though, that to reach success you have to learn to enjoy the hard work and not only the goal. I'd like to point out once again that I am talking about the general context here, not about using steroids, which I am against.

bronco, why are you against steriod usage?

[Guest]

Many correction officers, police officers, bailiffs, and bouncers use steriods because strength, size, and the intimidation factor is necessary for their occupation. A lot of correctional officers come from economically depressed areas and work as a C.O. is the only decent paying gig they can find to support themselves.

[VeganEssentials]

Many correction officers, police officers, bailiffs, and bouncers use steriods because strength, size, and the intimidation factor is necessary for their occupation. A lot of correctional officers come from economically depressed areas and work as a C.O. is the only decent paying gig they can find to support themselves.

 

The irony of it is that 3 out of 4 of the professions you listed are those whose job involves the criminalization of the substance in question. If a police officer is caught juicing, it's no different simply because of profession and they'll face the same consequences either way (unless they can pull strings within their profession if they're caught )

 

In all those cases, learning proper self-defense would prove to be more valid than simply trying to get a little bigger just to LOOK like you're more threatening. Not to say that intimidation by appearance doesn't do SOME good when it matters in some situations, but it doesn't matter how big you are if you can't fend off an attacker who is more skilled than yourself when it gets to the point where you have to fight for your life.

[Octopussoir]

Many correction officers, police officers, bailiffs, and bouncers use steriods...

 

The irony of it is that 3 out of 4 of the professions you listed are those whose job involves the criminalization of the substance in question. If a police officer is caught juicing, it's no different simply because of profession and they'll face the same consequences either way (unless they can pull strings within their profession if they're caught )

 

Many ways around this Ryan! Here lots of police and fire do it. In OKC, I was told the whole Fire Dpt was on the sauce. Think about carrying 80-100lb worth of gear through a burning house at a fast pace...

 

Anyway, here they will tell a doctor that their calves are under developed and so they get a prescript for Test-Gel and then they start their cycle(s). If they have a random drug test they can prove that they have a script for it without any extra questions.

[VeganEssentials]

Many correction officers, police officers, bailiffs, and bouncers use steriods...

 

The irony of it is that 3 out of 4 of the professions you listed are those whose job involves the criminalization of the substance in question. If a police officer is caught juicing, it's no different simply because of profession and they'll face the same consequences either way (unless they can pull strings within their profession if they're caught )

 

Many ways around this Ryan! Here lots of police and fire do it. In OKC, I was told the whole Fire Dpt was on the sauce. Think about carrying 80-100lb worth of gear through a burning house at a fast pace...

 

Anyway, here they will tell a doctor that their calves are under developed and so they get a prescript for Test-Gel and then they start their cycle(s). If they have a random drug test they can prove that they have a script for it without any extra questions.

 

Right back to my ramblings 2 posts ago, where many people CAN get a prescription by falsifying a medical need for it. It's too bad that this is becoming the norm vs. being the exception, but that's the way of the world, I guess.

 

However, anyone in their proper state of mind would question why a firefighter's results for testosterone levels would read off the charts when they'd use something like Test-Gel that would only give them a reading that's not exceptionally higher than normal Apparently, nobody in such departments must care that much otherwise there'd be more than enough reason to investigate a whole lot deeper. When someone's using a compound that would give you around 40mg/week of artificial testosterone but Firefighter X has levels like a pro BB'er, it should set off a few red flags

 

Gone are the days when the words "strength" and "health" went hand in hand, where people focused on their conditioning to do a job well vs. relying on things like steroids to compensate for extra work...

[Guest]

The irony of it is that 3 out of 4 of the professions you listed are those whose job involves the criminalization of the substance in question. If a police officer is caught juicing, it's no different simply because of profession and they'll face the same consequences either way (unless they can pull strings within their profession if they're caught )

 

In all those cases, learning proper self-defense would prove to be more valid than simply trying to get a little bigger just to LOOK like you're more threatening. Not to say that intimidation by appearance doesn't do SOME good when it matters in some situations, but it doesn't matter how big you are if you can't fend off an attacker who is more skilled than yourself when it gets to the point where you have to fight for your life.

How often do you hear about and how many people do you know who work in those professions getting busted? They must have better labs than Chinese and Russian weightlifters do.

 

Yeah, I know there are plenty of big strong guys who can't fight and small guys who can twist a big strong guy into a pretzel. I've seen it in street fights. However, if two people who have the same level of self-defense training and skill go at it, but one is stronger than the other. Which person has an advantage?

[VeganEssentials]

How often do you hear about and how many people do you know who work in those professions getting busted? They must have better labs than Chinese and Russian weightlifters do.

 

Actually, the Russians in particular tend to get busted quite often. Follow powerlifting or Olympic lifting and you'll find that it's not uncommon for half the team to end up being disqualified from major competition every so often for massive failure to provide a clean sample to compete If an entire fire department, for example, were to be juiced, it's obviously not much of a secret, and honestly, what can they do about it? You can't fire an entire group that's paid to protect the local citizens, so it gets overlooked, and therefore, condoned by those in power.

 

Yeah, I know there are plenty of big strong guys who can't fight and small guys who can twist a big strong guy into a pretzel. I've seen it in street fights. However, if two people who have the same level of self-defense training and skill go at it, but one is stronger than the other. Which person has an advantage?

 

At the same time, it seems that these days, the bulk of people out there who use steroids in the world of the average gym rat are most concerned with looking good vs. being stronger. I see plenty of guys who are obviously taking something where I train who look impressive and flex in front of the mirror like they're on stage between every set, but are simultaneously very weak for their size. Just like how there are some pro BBers who may walk on stage at 250+ lbs. and be shredded to the bone, but can be outlifted by a competitive powerlifter who comes in 80+ lbs. less than they do in bodyweight. Steroids and strength are not synonomous, as there are plenty of big gorilla men who can't squat their bodyweight plus 50% down to parallel and come back up with it.

 

In regard to taking on a job where you think that you need to be massive in order to perform optimally, perhaps people who think this way need to reassess why they're going into such a field. Seems to me that, if someone has the mentality that they can't perform their task without the aid of steroids, it looks more like they're taking the position as an excuse to juice vs. the other way around. But, whatever. People can make their own minds up, and most of us already have done so and aren't about to be swayed regardless of what the opposing side says. As far as I'm concerned, you can do as you please with your own body so long as it doesn't affect anyone else, though I have to side with MollyMormon most definitely in her opinon. If you take steroids and develop health complications that can be traced back to your use later on in life, tough luck as far as I'm concerned, and you should be prepared to foot your own costs for anything that needs to be done. There are known risks, albeit many of them blown out of proportion, and if one chooses to accept them, then accept the consequences if they arise.

 

I've spent time training with one guy in the past who has used a LOT of things that I certainly wouldn't put in my own body - he makes his own injectibles via cattle implants that can be filtered to remove the androgenic components, and using certainly helped him strength-wise as he eventually earned his pro card in strongman competition. However, he NEVER goes off, and hasn't in at least 5-6 years, and I'd be willing to bet some pretty serious cash that one day it's going to come back to haunt him. He's already paid the price with multiple ruptured tendon issues and may well have other things come up down the line, but yeah, he's strong as an ox, which to him means a lot (800+ lb. deadlifter, 700+ lb. raw squats, 400 lb. overhead press, etc.). But, what does it really mean if you might end up on dialysis when you're only in your 40s or 50s (particularly since what he uses is said to be tremendously tough on the kidneys). Is it REALLY worth it to be able to move mountains only to burn out a few years after you start to find glory in your chosen sport because you've broken your body down too far to keep up? Again, you have to weigh the risk vs. the reward - if you truthfully have no concern over what could potentially happen to your body down the line after using for years (as most end up doing, since people rarely want to give up their newfound size and/or strength after just one or two cycles), and either don't mind lying to your doctor/can accept jail time or stiff fines if caught buying, then by all means, go for it.

 

There are plenty of people in the professions of firefighting, law enforcement, bouncing etc. who have done so successfully for long periods of time without the need for performance enhancing drugs. It's silly to think that taking steroids is essential to such fields - it only ends up being a justification for the action vs. being a necessity for the job, and in turn, cheapens the true meaning of why someone would go into any of those professions in the first place (not that I haven't met a few bouncers who just wanted to be able to kick someone's ass now and then and do it legally just because they're a-holes). If you can't hang naturally and would feel that taking steroids is necessary to even begin to be effective in any of those jobs, then perhaps you wouldn't really be cut out for taking a position in one of those fields. But, that's just one man's opinion, take it or leave it. People will do as they please, but such things should come with full accountability for one's actions.

[bronco]

bronco, why are you against steriod usage?

I think that on a populational level the negative effects are bigger than the positive ones. I think that for every steroid user who knows what they are doing there are ten who doesnt, and I think they might not be the only one who faces the consequences. As far as I know the negative health effects are well documented, even if they are often exagerated.

 

On a sidenote, I don't agree with the view that steroid users should pay their own medical bill. The same kind of thinking might as well be applied to anything: people who drink, people who do drive too fast, people who do mountainbiking, or any other sport. I'm in favour for a free public healthcare system that let's everyone get the treatment they need.

[Tarz]

despite the fact that steroid usage is a Victimless Crime

Not always when people go nuts when they've got the rage.

[Guest]

despite the fact that steroid usage is a Victimless Crime

Not always when people go nuts when they've got the rage.

Their isn't any conclusive scientific evidence that roid rage exist.