Leaving

[ChaserHUN]

Raw food is good, I eat 90% Raw, and I'm happy with it

[SyrLinus]

Speaking in my "me" voice, it's a shame that this thread ended up about the very thing that Andesuma seemed to have issue with.

 

Andesuma, I'm sorry that this has decided to make you find your path elsewhere. There are always differences in how people see things and all that should matter is that you're ok with the path you are on.

 

I know that we've never (or rarely talked) but I think that the site is losing out when a voice that offers a different path is no longer heard and that saddens me. Perhaps overtime you may come back and find things different or more open. Personally I have no views on raw vegan lifestyle because I've never investigated it but I know that it works for some and it doesn't work for others. Kinda like Windows and Linux (in my world).

 

Wherever your path leads you now I wish you the best and the greatest success yet to come.

 

Namaste.

[Neoveg]

Yeah, I apologize and will miss reading your posts.

Sorry to all, wasn't the place to voice my concerns.

[beforewisdom]

Speaking in my "me" voice, it's a shame that this thread ended up about the very thing that Andesuma seemed to have issue with.

 

I thought her reason for leaving was that people were being rude to her. I have only seen people disagree with her or disagree with raw foodism in this thread.

[Lean and Green]

I don't think that anyone continually bashed Andesuma but if someone was ripping on something you believed in and writing things to other peers who felt the same way, It's easy to see how it would upset somebody.

 

Think about it, if you are/were gay and you met someone who bashed your belief in it, some hater, wouldn't you be upset?

 

To those threads out there where certain members are confronted by those who don't see eye to eye with veganism (like the jam sandwich bit), wouldn't that irate you?

 

Even when my family members joke around and wave meat or cheese in my face or comment about it and ask me what's wrong with me or my friends rag on me and stuff... At times it does get to me, even though I know they're joking 100%. I am just passive at most times to this type of behavior because I don't like to feed into things that will open me up to a negative attitude within myself.

 

Alot of what is said may be so in jest but at times when things are misconstrued and differences of opinions filter out of that and grow to bitter disagreements, the outcome is not good.

 

Whether or not Andesuma felt she was antogonized directly, indirectly can be just as offensive, even if it has nothing to do with her.

 

Whatever the case, it is a shame to see you go, I always got along with you and at least we can still be in touch. You will be missed.

[JW]

Well stated Lean & Green

[beforewisdom]

I don't think that anyone continually bashed Andesuma but if someone was ripping on something you believed in and writing things to other peers who felt the same way, It's easy to see how it would upset somebody.

 

Hi L&G;

 

I don't think pointing out facts is "ripping on" on someone's beliefs, it is just pointing out facts.

 

If the facts are politely pointed out and a person is offended, then the issue is not simply a "matter of fact" for the person. They have an emotional connection going on. As far as I know raw foodism is a dietary choice only.

 

Granted, people on the internet can be are often are rude in the way they choose to point out the facts.

[andesuma]

 

If the facts are politely pointed out and a person is offended, then the issue is not simply a "matter of fact" for the person. They have an emotional connection going on. As far as I know raw foodism is a dietary choice only.

 

Granted, people on the internet can be are often are rude in the way they choose to point out the facts.

 

 

That's the thing...

Aside from the fact that "more raw food in your diet = a very good thing"

there ARE no facts within the raw realm or this community.

 

It is all opinion

 

 

It is MY opinion that eating raw food is the sole contributing factor in

why I am, WHO I am today. It is so much more than a dietary choice.

And I could never site "facts" for the emotional, physical, mental and

spiritual changes that have occured in my life, strictly because of

me changing from eating whole foods vegan, to exclusively raw foods.

 

 

There are SO many very personal things, that I do not share on this

forum, that have happened in my life.. so many positive things.

And I do site my diet as a major contributing factor in this change.

Being vegan was not enough for me.

 

 

 

The thing that I find amusing is that there is NO raw food dogma going

on in this forum. The only ridiculousness and dogmatic approaches

have been from vegans bashing/joking around about raw foods in the

raw food section. Which is fine... but it has become overwhelming and

it proves and shows NOTHING, but immaturity AND inexperience.

 

I do not disagree with controversy. I absolutely feel it is necessary for

everyone to challenge and question everything, I've even posted a number of times OPINIONS and facts AGAINST raw foods/eating 100% raw!!! (how raw dogmatic of me...)

If there is anyone that likes a challenge, it is me

I would not be where I am today, in every aspect of my life,

if I had not questioned the things around me.

 

 

 

Controversy is good. But the constant posts about David Wolfe

and all the raw nonsense that he talks about, is just pointless!

No one in this forum "worships" or follows David Wolfe (which I find

relieving!!), so, why bring it into constant debate??

I would rather post about studies that prove how good greens are for you.

I would rather actually lift everyone else up, instead of pointing out

all of the negative...

 

 

 

That is one reason I feel I should leave.. , this kind of thing has

been going on in this section since it's birth. It's a cycle. And the

fact that it is dietary based and opinion based, means it will not be ending anytime soon...

There are three things you can never argue about with someone and

"win":

 

Religion

Politics

& Diet.

 

 

Even if it's between vegans....

 

 

 

Also, I would like to just point out the FACT that many of the

'successful' endurance athletes(Brendan Brazier, Scott Jurek, etc.)

in this world, eat almost all raw food! (80% +)

So, I think having a raw food section on this forum is very suitable

to it's intent.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2008 by andesuma

[CollegeB]

I wish people would be more constructive with criticism. It's also bad that vegans get enough crap from non vegans, why we give it to other vegans tells me we are not doing a good job of learning from our experiences.

[Lean and Green]

I don't think pointing out facts is "ripping on" on someone's beliefs, it is just pointing out facts.

 

I wasn't talking about anything cited from some sort of a source or any 'facts', what I mean is when people razz each other in jest but it gets misconstrued in the process. There is no way I am going to quote any of the situations in where this happened because as I said before, it's not my style to cause controversy or to facilitate bad energy.

 

When people discuss over cited texts or lecturers or what have you fine. But when someone justs throws a comment into the mix that has nothing to do with what another person wrote, just to throw a wrench into the gears it makes that person feel like they aren't being taken seriously...

[Zack]

Religion

Politics

& Diet.

 

/thread

 

 

best post ever.

[flanders77]

@Zack: After a very intense discussion the new forum structure was made including the raw section. The raw foodists and those interested in raw foodism usually do not need anyone telling them that (for a lot of reasons) only little scientific data is avaible to support raw foodism. And when you look at the studies about wether a vegan or omni diet is healthier/better you will see that science is always a question of believe. You can find studies to support the both opposing views if you want to.

Being vegan already makes me an "alien" in my society. During the last years I became even alienated from some of my fellow vegan BB&F because I chose to eat primarily raw.

As a scientist I know that there are few studies to support this diet. But it makes sense to me. It feels good. It is easy to eat enough (I consume >4000kcal per day).

The raw section exists because there are raw members who want to share their expiriences and knowledge. It does not make any sense to discuss again and again if raw food is healthy and/or able to support muscle growth. Raw foodists know there is no scientific proof yet. But there are some athletes and fitness enthusiasts eating raw and it is important for them to have a raw section. Before Bigbwii left the raw section was the mos active section (if I remember correctly) and it is still very active. There is a big interest in raw foodism.

 

Concerning reputation and credibility of vbb&f:

There are different trends concerning BB diet. The mainstream supports the high protein way of eating. I cannot believe that you really value the opinion of "Bodybuilders" so much... They used to (and still) laugh about VBB. Who cares? The credibility of VBB&F (do not forget the F!!!)arises from the success of its athletes. If vegan athletes cared about the mainstream opinion they would not be vegan.

 

Concerning what Robert wants (although said in another context):

(...)

 

I've always supported discussions and debates, but from day one I also set a standard that we would be respectful, mindful and tactful in our actions towards others here on this forum.

 

For years we stood out as a shining example of an online community based on respect for one another.

 

It seems lately we've forgotten that other people have feelings and we've been so focused on "being right" that we've hurt people within our online family. I understand the importance of some of the recent topics of discussion but I ask you to please consider the fundamental aspects this forum was founded on; friendliness, kindness, acceptance, respect, mindfulness and tactfulness.

 

I exhaust myself to instill these character traits here within our community and that is all I can do.

 

Thank you for your understanding and for supporting our mission to build community and progress with our family-friendly approach to making friends and making a positive difference.

 

Please consider your actions and how they might impact someone else.

 

Respectfully,

 

Robert

 

@Andesume: As I said before: Please don't leave. You are an essential part of the forum and you are needed. I am sure the raw food section will change and that the cooked foodists will stop bashing on raw foodism.

[xveganjoshx]

I really can't believe it is coming to this again. This is really silly.

 

I do not feel like there was an attack on raw foodism recently. There was certainly criticism, but I think it was healthy criticism. It's not like anyone went out of their way to attack raw foodists. If certain "out there" ideas need to be debunked then rest assured there will be people to debunk them. This applies to certain cooked food ideas (we have certainly criticized and debunked some mainstream cooked food omni ideas) and to certain raw food ideas. Stop taking it so personally. It's not like anyone is saying "member so and so" is stupid because they believe xyz. We are saying "this specific idea in raw foodism is unfounded and potentially dangerous". I don't want to see anyone hurt. I think a raw diet done right can work (lean and green seems to know what he is doing) but a raw diet that is not well thought out, planned, and executed, can be very dangerous. A big part of veganism (and successful fitness) is diet and if we can't point out things that seem dubious where are we headed? Flanders suggests that we limit certain members from posting in certain sections, this is very dangerous thinking. Censorship is not good. But criticism is necessary.

[flanders77]

First of all:

I never suggested censorship or limit members from posting.

Flanders suggests that we limit certain members from posting in certain sections, this is very dangerous thinking. Censorship is not good. But criticism is necessary.

 

Second: It is not silly. There are still members leaving. Andesuma pointed out why she left in detail.

 

3rd: Who decides what is dubios, "unproven", dangerous, not working and has to be debunked? Are you an expert in raw foodism?

As andesuma said it is all about opinion. It is not helpful at all for those seeking for for advice concerning raw food to mention again and agian that it is "dubios, "unproven", dangerous, not working".

 

4th: What you say about a raw diet is exactly the same what omnis said (or still say) about a vegan diet.

 

5th: IMO it is necessary to write a sticky that explaines the debate going on about raw food and put it in that section. Hopefully this relieves you of the burden to tell those interested in raw food (and BB&F) what you think about raw food.

[xveganjoshx]

First of all:

I never suggested censorship or limit members from posting.

Really? --->

@the other members involved:

Those responsible (you know who you are) for the constant bashing on raw foodists should really take a break from the raw section (or be forced to do so).

@Robert:

Please step in!

Good ole authoritarianism!

 

Second: It is not silly. There are still members leaving. Andesuma pointed out why she left in detail.

Okay.

 

3rd: Who decides what is dubios, "unproven", dangerous, not working and has to be debunked?

Science.

 

Are you an expert in raw foodism?

Yes. I know as much as any guru. Which is NOTHING.

 

As andesuma said it is all about opinion.

See above comment about science.

 

4th: What you say about a raw diet is exactly the same what omnis said (or still say) about a vegan diet.

NO. Vegans play by the same rules that omni's do, it's just that our protein sources are different. (Many)Raw foodists think the rules don't apply to them. They are wrong.

 

5th: IMO it is necessary to write a sticky that explaines the debate going on about raw food and put it in that section. Hopefully this relieves you of the burden to tell those interested in raw food (and BB&F) what you think about raw food.

Sure why not.

[andesuma]

To me, it is obvious, nearly all of the previously insightful wonderful

raw foodists have LEFT the forum for a reason...

 

(ie. Bigbwii, BigHead, saen I think his name was... )

 

The other raw foodists(in which there are only two others that I know of

besides myself that still post), that actually have a real, profound,

life truth and EXPERIENCE (which frankly means more to me than

anything any scientist says) in which they can back their claims up with!

Being a raw foodist for a number of years, in conjunction with proper

colon hydrotherapy; is a COMPLETELY different world than eating

raw food for a summer, or increasing your raw intake a bit.

 

The things that I have PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED in my life,

are of the highest importance. That is what buys some of the wonderful

raw food guru's, genuine credibility. (ie. www.rawreform.com , as

well as www.treeoflife.nu )

 

 

______

 

And, Josh, I just want to ask how I am not suppose to take something

'personally', when in a previous thread.. I was replying to someone about

how they shouldn't feel pressured and just listen to their bodies

with any kind of transition. I was basically being very nice

with my reply, and happen to mention the length of time in which I have

been vegan, again, to show my life experience and knowledge within

that world.

 

I wasn't even commenting to YOU or anything... and you

reply to me with "oooh..wow, I wish I could be as cool as you!! :rolling eyes:" ..........

?????????????????????????????????

 

 

I'm sorry if the fact that I actually just might know what I am talking about

bruises your ego alittle bit. But frankly, yes, I took that as a small

personal attack! How could I not??

I found it very immature of you.

 

 

~~~~

 

When all of this nonsense is said and done, really I think both you

and Zack are wonderful human beings! Really Zack is one of the

sweetest guys I know!!

He was the ONLY one that opening just came up and gave me a hug

when we met! I thought that was so profound.

 

 

So, really, I think nothing but positives of both of you.

I just think the egos need to fizzle out a bit, and sometimes you

both need to accept the fact that you might not know what you are talking

about.

Not to say that I ALWAYS do, I certainly don't. I admit ALL of this

is an experiment on myself, but I do give genuine advice from the

heart, and from my own truth.

 

 

~~~~

 

 

 

And , Flanders! thank you so much for being so sweet.

You are such a beautiful soul. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

[Zack]

For the record, I am not anti-raw food. I am anti-dogma, and anti-unfounded information. (ex. Enzyme theory)

 

First, I think you need to cool the ego at times as well. I didn't see the need for you to tell everyone that you know more than them because you have been vegan longer than anyone on the forum, that doesn't really matter, I don't think.

 

Everyone gives information relative to their own experiences, so nobody knows everything.. Not you, none of us.. Everyone has their own truth.

 

Yes, I love to be sarcastic and joke around, that's what josh and I do.

 

I just have a problem with some of the things certain members have said, that through MY experience, and basic scientific knowledge have been false. Anyone who knows me knows that i'm not inclined to believe everything science has to say, because I have done things that are not in line with scientific knowledge as it stands. In my opinion, science is frequently playing catch up. Anyone who knows me also knows that I have had different experiences than most people, and I have discovered what works for me. I think I should be able to say something about things I disagree with.

 

Lean and Green has been refreshing to me because he is a raw foodist that actually recommends people eat and get protein to build muscle. He doesn't dwell in the fantasy and dogma of raw food. As long as I see that,

I'm cool with it all.

 

It has been my experience that raw foodists (some) bash the cooked foods frequently, so we should be able to comment on what we find skeptical about raw foods.

 

I think there is too much fantasy and false information in the raw lifestlye that can be misleading to people. Such as people recommending to "get through the detox and lose the false body" before they can rebuild muscle and expecting to do it on bananas. You CAN build muscle on raw food, but it takes adequate calories and protein.

 

The raw section has been better lately, but there was a time when it was outrageous, telling people (literally) that they can build muscle on a handful of grapes if they just get through the detox.

 

Like Josh said, no need to reinvent the wheel. The basics are the same for any diet regarding fitness.

 

 

Now, I am going to eat some GOOD OLE raw strawberries.

 

That are extremely fat juicy and GMO

 

 

 

 

 

[Couture547]

I don't see why people keep mentioning the enzyme theory. The facts are there are enzymes in Raw food and none in Cooked foods. Science can't explain very much, or else people wouldn't be dieing left and right from diseases. Alot of what raw food offers is different for everyone and It doesn't take a lab test to tell me if i'm feeling better or not. If you eat raw or cooked foods doesn't really matter to me, but personally for me cooked foods offer no benifits. The extent of how much better raw foods will be for me will take along time to figure out, but i know where 21 years of eatting cooked foods have gotten me and most people on the planet and i'm not impressed.

[Jason]

I'm sorry that you've decided to leave andesume.

I hope that you reconsider.

[Couture547]

BTW did you guys know that Ormus is a compete protein and can transmutate water into any nutriant you need. There for contary to what you've all been taught food is not needed when ormus made. Ormus= good stuff LOL

[andesuma]

 

First, I think you need to cool the ego at times as well. I didn't see the need for you to tell everyone that you know more than them because you have been vegan longer than anyone on the forum, that doesn't really matter, I don't think.

 

Everyone gives information relative to their own experiences, so nobody knows everything.. Not you, none of us.. Everyone has their own truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is YOUR interpretation of what I wrote. Not the reality.

That is also a complete exaggeration.

 

I did not "tell everyone", as I remember my reply was TO ONE PERSON , who was NEW to the forum, and did NOT know my

background/vegan history.

THAT is why I mentioned it, and felt it was necessary for me to.

 

And you can re-read my last reply, since it already stated what you've

said, because I do agree.

 

 

 

That'll be my last reply.

[xveganjoshx]

 

I wasn't even commenting to YOU or anything... and you

reply to me with "oooh..wow, I wish I could be as cool as you!! :rolling eyes:" ..........

?????????????????????????????????

Somehow I have now personally entered the discussion. Interesting.

I agree with Zack when I say I feel like you were bragging and really being vegan/raw for X years makes no difference. It's not like you transcend to some new level or something. It's just eating food. I just thought it was a little pompous.

 

 

I'm sorry if the fact that I actually just might know what I am talking about

bruises your ego alittle bit.

When did I say that? Of course I know this is your attempt to "read me", but alas you've got me pegged wrong. You met me for a few moments during vegan vacation, please don't assume you know where I'm coming from. It's offensive.

 

When all of this nonsense is said and done, really I think both you

and Zack are wonderful human beings!

I only spent a small amount of time with you but in the time I've spent you seem really sincere and genuine, which are traits which I admire alot. You seem to have good intentions and at the end of the day that's whats important to me. We do see some things differently and that's fine. I think we can both point out things in a constructive and healthy way without it getting personal. In fact I don't feel as if I personally attacked you and I regret that you feel that way.

As for staying or leaving, do whichever you please, but know that I will continue to point out things I see as fallacious in a polite and constructive way. I encourage you to do the same if you so please. As far as toning down the ego, I'm an animated, thickheaded guy, but I'll see what I can do.

[Zack]

As far as toning down the ego, I'm an animated, thickheaded guy, but I'll see what I can do.

 

lmao...

[Zack]

 

First, I think you need to cool the ego at times as well. I didn't see the need for you to tell everyone that you know more than them because you have been vegan longer than anyone on the forum, that doesn't really matter, I don't think.

 

Everyone gives information relative to their own experiences, so nobody knows everything.. Not you, none of us.. Everyone has their own truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is YOUR interpretation of what I wrote. Not the reality.

That is also a complete exaggeration.

 

I did not "tell everyone", as I remember my reply was TO ONE PERSON , who was NEW to the forum, and did NOT know my

background/vegan history.

THAT is why I mentioned it, and felt it was necessary for me to.

 

And you can re-read my last reply, since it already stated what you've

said, because I do agree.

 

 

 

That'll be my last reply.

 

sounds reasonable.

[flanders77]

First of all:

I never suggested censorship or limit members from posting.

Really? --->

@the other members involved:

Those responsible (you know who you are) for the constant bashing on raw foodists should really take a break from the raw section (or be forced to do so).

@Robert:

Please step in!

In the heat of the discussion I obviously did suggest it. Sorry for claiming the opposite.

 

Hopefully Robert will clarify his point of view soon. If he wants the raw section and members to stay something has to change.

 

Andesumas leaving is not about the raw-cooked-discussion. We already had this discussion a few times before. Everything that needs to be said has been said. The debate cannot be brought to an end because there are members who believe in his/her own experience and not so much in traditional science. Robert decided to create the raw section as it is now for good reasons. Most members agreed that it does not serve any purpose to start the raw-cooked discussion again and again in every new topic of the raw section. It seems that some members do not want or cannot understand that point of view.