beforewisdom

Hey Cubby; When you hit 165 and started bulking where you nervous about gaining fat back? How did you avoid putting fat back on? Did you keep monitoring how much you ate and just kept it steady? Did you use a body fat scale to make sure the weight going on was muscle? It is inspiring to see that someone can become so lean ( and so strong for your size, I read your bodybuilding site ) after losing so much fat.

Dr. Pink; Cubby's post is informative and inspiring, especially if you go to the second link in his signature. If that is love handles and loose ab skin sign me up: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com//img/user_images/507062/progresspic/277252orig.jpg

During college I would often see a woman who was pretty hot come to the gym, build to phenomenal amounts of time on the cardio equipment, probably go on some spartan diet, whittle herself down to a stick and see her self esteem go up during the process. Saw this a few times. American men do seem to like less heavier women, but I don't think you can blame it on them. I've heard many guys who are not PC at all say they think runway models and even some fashion models look sickly rather than sexy.

What about giving the standard treatment to cover your ass while prescribing a new diet?

I know where you are coming from Offense. I've had the many similar experiences. The scientific method, the institution of science, and the existing body of research are not the problem. Doctors Furnham, Barnard, Esselstyn, McDougal, and Ornish are all part of the scientific establishment. They know what they know because Nathan Pritikin started the ball rolling with post WWII research in the early 50s that looked at those Northern Europeans who got cured of many degenerative diseases when the war cut them off from most of their high fat animal based diet. Those medical doctors, you, and I know about these things which validate vegan diets from the scientific method and the institution of science. I wanted to make that clear because there is a trend among vegans to distrust science, distrust what has been learned and to make up their own nutritional metaphysics laboring under the paranoia that they are always being lied to. The problem in your situation is that medical doctors do not recieve any nutritional education. They don't know how to evaluate books like Furnhams and they have never learned to respect the potential of nutrition. In my country, the U.S., if a doctor is put on trial s/he can lose their lisence, their career, and go to jail if a patient is hurt as a result of them giving treatments that are standard treatments in the medical community. These problems will eventually change as more people like you read books that based on good science and as more people like you take the risk in introducing these books to people around. It is just going to take time and repetition

I shop at food co-ops and I hate going to more than one store when I shop for food, so it is easier for me to just buy organic. If something is outrageously expensive I will substitute something else, do without, or buy commercial produce at a supermarket.

Several people gave Dr. Pink the great advice of doing all the fitness work he can (gaining muscle, losing fat, working his abs ) before sitting down to decide on whether or not he wants to consult a plastic surgeon. What body fat percentage would be good for him to achieve before he decides that he has gotten all of the the flab/loose skin tightening he is going to get from exercise? It used to be that the only way to get an accurate body fat measurement was to take a dip in a water tank. Lots of fun, I did one about 15 years ago. I've heard that there are now scales that can measure body fat. What is their margin of error? What are the good brands and models?

This is slightly off topic of Dr. Pink's question, but closely enough related that I think he will find it interesting. Some guys who get big stomachs develop a crease in their ab skin similar to the crease people have in their elbows. The crease is between the top the abs and the solar plexus area. Has anyone lost a lot of weight off of their abs and seen that crease go away on its own? If it can go away, is there anything that will speed it up going away?

There is also exposure to environmental contaminants that are beyond many people's awareness or ability to control.

It sounds a bit kinky It does sound interesting....for skin tightening . Thanks for reading my mind and addressing the concerns about it being a temporary fix via dehydration. I think I will check it out.

Potter, if you are addressing me or if you are addressing Ravi's rant I believe it is a fact that you can not diet skin off of your body. If this is not a fact and you have access to information to prove it I would welcome the education.

VeganEssentials; I agree with you a 100%. I resisted getting a mobile phone for years for all of the reasons you mentioned. They do have some practical value. I finally got one for reasons similar to yours for having one. My cell phone stays turned off in the glove compartment of my car until I need to make a call or be reached when I am away from my land line at home/work. I enjoy my time alone when I am in some transitional situation like commuting. It gives me a chance to relax, to enjoy the scenery around me, to day dream and to think. Some of the most useful sessions of thinking I've had about my life have happened while I've been "mulling things over" while driving, taking a long walk home, or riding on a train. I think many people feel awkward with their own company. Having a cell phone that they can use to talk to someone in every spare moment prevents that from happening.

Hi Ravi. I'm not Dr. Pink, but those comments did not hit me as rude or condescending. Wrong, yes. Rude and condescending, no. I am on this forum because I like conversing with other vegans and other people interested in fitness in a friendly online atmosphere. There aren't many online places where vegans can converse in a friendly manner for very long. This place seems to be blessed with people who are determined not to get into pissing contests. I don't mean an insult to anyone, but the quality of information here can be not so great at times. Ideas that have little basis in fact are often repeated and I don't sense a willingness among the general population to question things. Again, no insult to anyone, it is just what I see. In that respect I can also relate to your rant and I felt a "Hell Ya" when I read it. Again, no insult to anyone. Everyone here is fun to talk to and highly motivating to me personally. Having said that I appreciate where you writing about where you are coming from in your post. I was pushing 260 lbs at 5 11 back in 2000. I am 178 lbs nows working on those last two pounds which seem to be coming off achingly slow. I look good in my clothes and not bad at all for a guy my age, but even after all of that work it feels like I have a small pillow around my waste when I touch my abs. Having been unable to exercise for several years as well as being very, very fat I am 85% content to just be where I am. Able to enjoy exercise again on a moderate basis, back to being at a decent weight, and feeling much less self conscious in social situations. A small part of me still wants perfection, but being older as well as being wiser from having it all taken away from me has made it possible for me to be mostly happy where I am.

What is a body wrap?

I've read many people say that it is very hard to lose weight without losing some muscle. I've read it is also hard to lose a significant amount of fat and build muscle at the same time. Should someone in Dr. Pink's position do a moderate amount of cardio, stabilize his calorie intake and lift hoping that the energy required for muscle growth will have to come from his stored fat ?

FWIW I stumbled across a low carb blog one day with a man who had the same complaint as Dr. Pink. FYI, fat is stored energy that is used up with a dietary deficit.......skin is not stored energy that can be dieted away.

Dr. McDougals earlier books are awesome. If you live near a large library or one with an inter library loan program they are worth tracking down. They are less oriented towards diet books for popular audiences and more about hard information.

Anyone else seem to notice cats gravitating towards sleeping vegans in the pics?

Michelle; You have an awesome face. You and the other women who posted pics should consider giving up make-up. You don't need it

Tigress you look better first thing in the morning then most women do all day. However, if you were my wife, and talking on a phone that time of day in bed I would be filing for divorce now and swearing to my friends that I wasn't near sighted. Robert, you look the guys in the razor commercials

Do you think it is worth it to consult with a plastic surgeon at the get-go to have her/him tell when you are ready or do you think money will always influence what they tell you ( you are not ready if you can't pay for it, you are ready if you can pay, etc. )?

Dr. Pink; Try to look up a burn recover center/hospital in your area. I've heard they always need skin. You might be able to work out a deal with them to "donate" your unwanted skin to them in exchange for them removing it for you.

Cutting calories, reducing your energy intake, forces your body to consume stored energy, fat. If Dr. Pink is right and that flab is skin dieting might not help. It is also hard for me to tell the difference between loose and fat, but you can see the stretch marks on his abs.

Here is a link the USDA nutrition database. Very easy to use and it is the standard sites and software that are not free use. Not all legumes and grains are equal in terms of amount of protein. Even without soy you can choose legume and grain combinations that will give you 25 grams of protein per meal ( or more if you eat more ) for a modest amount of calories: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ Plain organic soy beans the way you would make any other bean look and taste like navy beans, are CHEAP, packed with protein, and have tons of other nutrients. Then there is a plethora of soy foods and vegan soy protein powders all of which have massive amounts of protein. Seitan is a natural wheat gluten product, also very high in protein and you will see it used in many faux meats. Like I said, even with some of the more humble beans you can find in any supermarket you can easily get at least 25 grams of protein per meal.

I don't think they need to mention the word, to be honest about their agendas. The women who wrote that book were mainstream women working the fashion industry when they learned about the cruelty in animal food production. In their book they talk to other "mainstream" women like themselves giving them similar information as it was given to them. That is straight forward IMHO. Why else would anyone mention horrible things about a product unless they wanted someone to quit that product? The authors cover the cruelty in meat and dairy alike. That leaves a vegan diet ( as opposed to "veganism", something else altogether IMHO )