Couture547

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJE2GpF9Ohc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzPBUGUM7KQ I've haven't a clue about what you're saying, what you mean, or what your perception of what you think I mean, or have said in the past. What is my animal dogma? I doubt you know. Read the previous posts on this thread

Yeah i shouldn't look at actually lab work, but should go by your and his animal product dogma. How do you stay on a diet you know is inferior and isn't the diet your meant to be on?

Yeah they arn't very close. I had a buddy that was lean, but not shredded by any means and his read at 8 percent. I'd say your at least 10, i'd guess around 12 though

I think this is an important thing to recognize here. It seems to me that the bone health of most people (vegan or not) has more to do with other factors, such as lack of exercise, intake of phosphates (soda pop), and an unbalanced diet that leads to unbalanced pH rather than raw amount of calcium intake. In fact, recently there was a study I read (I believe linked to on this site) that found that a group of vegan women studied, while consuming less calcium than their typical omni counterparts, still had equal or greater bone density. There are an estimated 75 million osteoporosis patients in the USA, Europe and Japan. How many of them are vegan? How many of them probably consume large amounts of calcium at the behest of their doctors, or drank milk their whole lives? I also think it's folly to assume that someone is more or less right simply because they have letters after their names or hold a degree. Being "educated" doesn't make you right, being right makes you right. Many "experts" in literally every field of science have been wrong. I think we should all think for ourselves and not arrogantly suggest that because someone is an "expert" or "has a degree" that they're automatically right. That goes for doctors and experts and dieticians and nutritionists that are anti-vegan, and those who are vegan. Even well-intentioned "experts" can be wrong. I've been vegan for 7 years. I do not supplement with calcium, magnesium or vitamin D. I eat broccoli, spinach and tofu nearly every day. My bones are strong, and I've been to the doctor to have this confirmed. In fact, when I did break a bone (I train martial arts, broken bones in my school are not uncommon), it healed faster than the orthopedic surgeon expected - he was constantly commenting on the unexpected progress. I'll trust my own experiences and common sense on this one. Your spot on, this is what i've been talking about. There's so many people that have osteoporosis yet the overwelming majority arn't vegans and like you said there are many factors other then the amount of calcium in the diet. Eating a ton of calcium on a sad diet or any other bad diet is like trying to fill a bucket with water that has a large hole in it. There's so many things that people do on a daily basis that leaches calcium and other alkaline minerals from the bones

The fact of the matter is i had the protein professionally tested by a guy that would've bet his house i was protein def, yet i was high on every amino acid tested. High not by my standards, but high based on what your supposed to be according to "experts"

So your hinting that Vegans on the nutrition forum are more misinformed then on omni nutrition forum? I pick option 5 there's no one group excpet possbiliy BUSH or Obama supporters, since they seem to have there blinders on

The animal protein issue is fact. Stating that fact isn't being anti-vegan, it is just stating the fact. That isn't quite true. A large number of contradictory opinions don't come from experts, they come from competing views on people who don't know what they are talking about disagreeing( journalists reporting on nutrition issues, diet book authors, people on the web, etc ). Experts and officials responsible for making those definitions stated that is exactly why they set the recommendations high -- since everyone is different they set the numbers high enough so that everyone would get enough of what they need. How is it a fact? It is a theory. saying beef is a 1.0 soy beans are a .75 and pinto beans are a .3 or whatever the numbers are are based on there requirments. If we we're obvious carnivores then i'd say without a doubt we need meat for ideal protein, but there's nothing to support that other then the fact that humans have been eatting some animal prodcuts for a long time. But guess what humans have eatten anything thoughout history. Find me a person that is protein def and i'll show you someone that is on a stavation program. I was seeing this health pract for a while and when he found out i was Vegan he said you must be def in protein, so he ran full test and every single amino acid came back in the upper ranges. I was not on any powders/ soy or anything else.

All depends on what your goals are. Right now i'd guess your in the 12-14 pecent body fat range. So if you got down to say 8 percent with that amount of muscle you'll be really lean but it will be more skinny then cut. I think if you gained say another 10 pounds of muscle and dropped 5-10 pounds of fat you'll be shredded. If strength is your main goal size comes along with that

Your nice and lean, now it's time to build on what you have going on

I am a vegan and I have never written anything anti-vegan on this forum. The phrase "so called expert" can be construed that you question the credentials of these experts, possibly claiming that have superior knowledge to those people. In regards to the "so called experts", that "some woman" is Virginia Messina. She is a vegan, she is a registered dietitian, she is the coauthor of several vegan nutrition books and she is the coauthor of the American Dietetic Association Position Paper On Vegetarianism. The other "so called expert" I mentioned in this tread is Jack Norris, also a vegan, also a registered dietitian and cofounder of Vegan Outreach. You might not consider it anti vegan nutritionally but i do. Not sure if it was you or someone else that said it's a fact that animal protein is more usable for humans, that sounds pretty anti to me. Like i've said in the past if we listened to ever expert out there we'd eat nothing becasue you can have two experts citing two different studies that are for competely different diets. I don't buy into the RDA numbers becasue i belive that everyone is a individual with unique situations and needs, but it's still possible to get 100 percent rda calcium without supplementing

I don't understand how you got the idea I was saying that form the content of my post. I suggest you read it again. I don't understand how you got the idea I was saying that form the content of my post. I suggest you read it again. I don't think medical science has that knowledge nor do I think a scientist would put in those terms if that knowledge is possessed. I just hear alot of Anti Vegan stuff nutritionally from you and a couple others and pro vegan from a ethical prospective. You show what the so called experts claim is the best most usable protein for humans and then show this article of some woman saying vegans have bad bone health. The funny thing about these experts is that a good portion of them look like shit and have many common problems that are considered normal. I think that the animal product propaganda is so deeply instilled in us that even when we're against something we still buy alot of stuff from that industry. The vegan diet like the omni diet is such a broad diet. IMO a compete junk food omni diet is healthier then a complete junk vegan diet. But the best vegan diet is better then the best omni diet imo. The reason i say that is because the worst stuff on SAD is not the animal products, it's the White flower, the white sugar, the Oils, the additives and so on all of which are vegan. So of course your going to have protein issues, calcium issues ect when you remove the only part of sad that has any nutrients in it and replace it with processed mock substitues.

YEP IYM your right on. The super food movement is just about money. Market something that doesn't grow in the area, therefore it's exotic so it has to be better for us then are regular stuff lol. All classes of foods have very similar nutrient profiles. Like all beans(excpet Soy Bean are very similar both in macro and micro ratio's. All fruits with the excpetion of the fatty fruits are very similar to each other. What they do is break down the foods and find all these nutrients that no one has heard of and claim only this food has it and it will do this and that. David Wolfe is a perfect example, he used to be all about regular fruits and veggies, then he realized there's limited money in selling books telling people to eat bananas and greens. Then he started the whole superfoods thing marketing exotic foods. Now he says Kale is the thing of the past and raw Cocoa will give you everything you need.

So what your basically saying is Humans thrive on Animal products? I've asked this question before to the people that say humans need animal products for optimal protein, enough calcium ect. What's wrong with using the products that are DNA says we need?

depends on your definition of synthetic. it certainly is processed so it can be considered synthetic. Every subtance on the planet is natural at some point the difference is how much processing is going on.

Does he have any contact info? I never hear anyone talk about him or see him post here. Just wanted to see if there's a way to contact him

Thanks....my body changes like crazy.....probably more dramatically than almost anyone I know. Right now, for example, only weeks removed from the competition stage, I am totally skinny. I went from being pretty muscular an ripped and a contest-ready bodybuilder to some skinny guy I always tell people, I lose 5 pounds a day if I don't eat enough or take more than 3 days off from the gym and I go back to my running build I had as a high school and college distance runner. This video was taken on June 22nd, about 3 weeks before competition. I did a video recently and I look pathetic I just watched it yesterday and somewhat afraid to post the link. It was filmed during the animal rights conference and someone posted it on my facebook page and I was like......wow, I'm skinny as hell now...gotta fix that! So...I'll work on fixing that. I don't know that my carbs were up during that video but protein was up very high during that time I recall. Back to work....gotta get fat now! Didn't know this one was older. it wasn't very long ago so you can get back there fast. You looked really soild. Not a expert on body building but your recent bb contest pics while you looked very good looked flat compared to what i've seen from you. Whats your macro ratios and aprox calorie amount when your bulking? I have the exact opposite body type as you, i gain muscle easily, but fat really easy, so i have to be on top of my nutrition at all times. There's pro's and cons to each body type.

Robert, your looking really good there and alot better then those recent competition pics i saw of you. YOu seem alot fuller. Did you notice once you upped the carbs that the size came back on?

How do i make a quote if i have to delete old ones?

Yeah i'm very insecure about that!! I hit quote but if there's too many quotes it won't let me post and then i delete the old posts before the one i'm responding to and that's how it comes up

Then you would have no need, or want to eat seal. yeah, I'm all for groups like the eskimos doing what they need to do to survive, but that doesn't mean it's a optimal diet for humans. I'd imgaine since they've been on that diet generation after generation they get much better results then someone like me or most the world who's ancestors eat high carb diet with the exception of my parents where it was sad so it was anything goes.

Guess you never heard that phase "When in Rome do as the Romans". If you didn't eat that seal you'ld be dead right after your mother weened you. About age 2. Reality isn't one of your key issues I see. I dont live in the artic cricle and neither do you or your wife. Unless of course Sunnyvale is a small village up there.

You should go on the eskimo diet and see how it works for you, you seem to be all about it I told you my wife is a Native American Eskimo. She just recieved dried seal meat, and seal oil in the mail Sat., and put it in the freezer. It's been a number of years since i've had any, but I do like the taste. I also told you her father lived to be 94. So how all about it are you? not about it at all. i like seals and wouldn't want to kill them so i can live on average 65 years old

It's not that I don't believe them (Mcdougall and Robbins) , It's your over simplification and narrow view, that I don't believe. If you go back and read your original argument about Eskimos. You will see that you were arguing the mortality rate of Eskimos. Now you want to argue BMD. You never did give me any evidence of the mortality rate. Is grasping at straws your way of debating issues. Here Is just one link that I looked up. Being your inability to do so. http://books.google.com/books?id=_6QM5k_M1SsC&pg=PA298&lpg=PA298&dq=eskimos+and+bone+health&source=bl&ots=VJ-z1JQUqV&sig=OKG9tvvpOkfATUjakA7nyyp5hVc&hl=en&ei=p7x_Sv-OBYayswONm7jvCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false It states about Eskimos bone desity after age 40 being less than that of Whites. It doesn't go on to examine the Asian population as a whole, who on average have smaller bones than whites. It also states and I quote "No differences were seen in bone loss rates between the lactoovovegetarians and the omnivorous groups. Further more in the most recently published studies, bone mass was found to be significantly lower in the vegetable based dietary groups." And it further goes on to say. "Whilst the issue of dietary change among the Eskimo population (particularly the use of refined carbohydrates)" was raised and subsequently discussed. Clearly these findings are of considerable interest to the interaction between diet and bone in the regulation of systemic acid-base balance and further work in this area is clearly warrented." I'm so glad you have me fighting your battles for you. This was the first sight I Googled and it's saying the same thing I've been trying to tell you. You should go on the eskimo diet and see how it works for you, you seem to be all about it

I agree

This is true. Not the best study ever made but still worth thinking about: Lifestyle factors and the development of bone mass and bone strength in young women. From the research ive done it's more about the quality of the diet, meaning more natural, less acidic foods that help bones density rather then just calcium totals. In the west we get a ton of calcium but still have alot of problems, But exercise is huge