Couture547

Today i got up 405 without straps or grip aid. I'm pretty stoked about it becasue March of this year was the first i ever trained deads and was extremely weak. I use over under grip without chalk. My grip is still behind, so i'm working hard on that, so i'll be at 455 in no time. Now i got to get to mans weight over 500 without grip aid.

How tall are you L n G? Looking great in those pics

maybe you should go check out DVs training journal. ive actually trained with her and its no joke. She is DIESEL! She lifts more than a lot of men that i know. I'm talking-she doesnt even touch a dumbell below thirty....ever and it is my understanding that she gets her bf tested very frequently and has consistantly for more than a year....so.....yeah...there's THAT. ....or you could just brawl it out. i bet you'd think she gained 20 pounds of muscle then. She looks pretty good in the little pics i've seen, so i bet she is strong. 5'10'' 165 is about average for a non fat man at that height. most men don't do much for strength work so it wouldn't be surprised if she's stronger then alot of men

Never once said she wasn't natural. And your nothing to ride home about. As far as me I'm pretty strong and getting stronger by the day, but i'm realistic about the size i gain. Since you down talk a raw food diet then you should be much stronger then me considering you were on a superior diet and i was on this so called crap diet where everyone is is small and weak. Let me ask anyone that claims they gained 20 plus pounds. How did your lifts improve? adding 20 pounds of muscle to a woman would pretty much double every lift minimum

Who wouldn't be jealous? If a 43 year old woman can gain 20 pounds of real muscle in a year then i need to train under her and you should too brah. I'd be a natual Arnold in 3 years and then work my way up to Coleman

I don't think anyone is lying about what they think they gained weather they gained every bit of what they think is different. If your getting that good of results i say go with it and go with it with a large smile on your face at all times becasue people risk they health and lively hood using roids to get those kind of results

no i don't really care about that as long as one put on at least what they said in lean muscle. For example if one gained 40 pounds with 20 of that lean muscle and the other water and fat then that was a 20 pound gain of lean mass. I just know to many people and i was one of them that lifts hard eats huge and takes alot of supplements and thinks most or all the mass gained was lean muscle. when in fact most of the weight gained was water/ fat/ extra food weight/ bloat.

No i worded it right. I said show me a forty something natural woman that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle. I don't care how much fat one puts on or water on top of the 20 pounds of muscle. Imagine how easy a 20 year old man could become a top natural bb if a forty year old woman can add that kind of muscle

For god's sake, already! I've had a NET gain of 20 lbs of lean (non-fat, ie, muscle) mass and a NET loss of over 10 lbs of fat. This takes into consideration the wide (up to 3 lbs) water weight fluctuations I can have at different times due to hormones (menstruation) and/or sodium intake. I'm very aware that's what you said, i was repling to someone else

Except that you have several people in this thread for whom 20% protein was not enough. They tried it. It didn't work. They upped their protein intake and started gaining mass. That's not to say that everyone is going to have the same experience, and it's just anecdotal evidence, but any evidence at all is enough to bust your unsubstantiated claim that 20% is enough for "anyone." Once again, I'm simply arguing against blanket statements. It seems foolish to me to say "x is always true" when you can just click back a page or two and read multiple people posting "I personally tried x and it did not work for me." Ive said nurmerious times If your undereatting carbs then your bodies protein needs are alot more. So the question is how much were they eatting before? And what was the source of this protein? I'm blown away by the amount of processed soy i see people on here eatting

She said 20 pounds of muscle, so that can mean more then 20 total with water and fat, but still at least 20 in muscle. If one gains 20 pounds and half of it is muscle then you gained 10 pounds of muscle

Heh, this has been a cooked vs raw thread for a while now. Anyway, I was responding to your question about losing your credibility and explaining why beforewisdom thought your statement was foolish. And frankly, when you're advising someone about how much protein to consume, statements like the one bw quoted might be relevant. As long as you're willing to stand behind them and back them up, I don't see why there should be an issue. And i've all ready shown that you can get more then enough protein on a cooked vegan diet without supplement. A diet of 20 percent protein works for anyonw. 8K calories= 400 grams of protein, 4K calories= 200 grams of protein, 2K calories= 100 grams of protein. 1,500 calories= 75 grams of protein. Any thing less then that for anyone and your just starving yourself and not building mass on matter how much protein. Even Omni guys will say that the most the body could ever use at one time is around 40 grams of protein and that's a absolute max. Any thing more then that and your wasting your time. Just think if your eatting 20 percent protein you fall right where you need to be. Not to little and not too much, but just right

I did. From September 2001 to September 2002 I put on 20kgs (44lbs) of Muscle (84kgs to 104kgs). It was a couple of months after going vegan. No drugs, just plenty of good food and plenty of protein. I have maintained that muscle ever since IF that's the case which i'll just pretend you really did that then why don't we have alot of natural Arnolds here? There's not a natural bb ever to have the body of Arnold. Arnolds Lean body mass in his prime was around 225 and that's with drugs. alot of which is the skelaton, organs, blood, water and other stuff. 44 LBS of lean mass would be like a third or less of the total muscle a juiced arnold had after all those years of lifting, drugs and all that. Doesn't sounds likely does it?

Dude, I am ed by trying to reason with you. I only posted what I did to show newcomers what your mentality is like so they can avoid wasting their time reading what you have to say. Many people can be really narrow minded and foolish in one area of their lives, while being competent in others. I hope for your sake the mentality you have wit raw foodism is isolated to raw foodism. I'm not even a raw foodist any more, but was for around 2 years. In the other thread i was defending raw food saying you can get strong on raw food if your doing in right. The people that are falling apart on raw food and built like pixy sticks are doing some things wrong. Alot of people look like shit on SAD, Veganism, Raw foodist it doesn't matter. It's only when it's a so called extreme diet that one blames the diet. Is raw food diet superior to cooked? Who knows. What i do know that is too do a raw food diet correctly you must have a very large budget, some thing i don't have right now.

becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means. It sounds to me like his issue is with your (non-)support for the argument. "All of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets" is immaterial. The eagle is the strongest bird, but I won't be able to fly if I mimic their diet of raw fish, because we are hugely biologically different. And while the rhino beetle is the strongest animal by body size, I doubt we'd get far on a diet of rotten wood. Also, many of the strongest animals live off of raw meat. Eagles, lions, tigers, bears, etc. But I doubt you'd recommend we switch to a raw meat diet. Remember, you can't say that cooked food is bad for us any more than we can say that a raw diet is bad for us. So you just think DV is lying? Since when has this thread been a cooked vs. raw thread? This is about protein which is so easy to get on a cooked vegan diet without supplements it crazy. I don't think she's lying, but i know that she didn't put on 20 pounds of only muscle in a 1 year period unless in fact she had that muscle at one point and then lost it all then got it back with muscle memory.

Bodybuilders and weighlifters have been doing that since the early 60s. For anyone new to this board reading this thread, let me put Couture547's credibility into perspective. I have no intention of insulting him, but honestly I can't think of a way around it and make this point at the same time. Couture547, I'm sorry if it still means anything to you. Couture547 told me the other day on this forum that raw food diets should be optimal for people since all of the strongest animals on Earth live off raw diets. Anyone who has ever taken care of pets, watched nature shows or even had a high school biology class knows that different animals are different internally, have different capacities and different needs. Couture547 may never have been responsible for the welfare of an animal, but he has likely been in the school system and had a biology class. In other words he gives advice based on what he wants to believe and not on what is known becasue i said that raw diets are probably best it destroys my credibility? lol You nor anyone else can say what diet humans are supposed to be on with 100 percent certainly. You assuming humans need cooked food diet is a assumption not fact by any means. And as far as the BB and lifter doing it since the 60's show me one person that put on 20 pounds of lean muscle(no fat or water) in a one year period without drugs. Then if you can find that show me one a 40 year old woman.

It's just about impossible for any man let alone a 40 year old woman to gain 20 pounds of actual muscle in a year without drugs. Even men on Steroids that's a very big feat, but probably doable. you probably gained a little fat along with alot of water and some muscle. Depending on the supplements your taking that can add alot of fake muscle like creatine for example. You can gain 10 pounds over night in your muscles( i've done this in the past) and think that you all of sudden you have more muscle when in fact it's just extra water weight. I haven't read every post on this thread, but i haven't seen anyone say that protein is not important or to do any extremely low protein diets so i don't know who's posts your refering to. I said that 20 percent protein is more then enough for anyone assuming your getting that from real foods and not processed soy or protein powders and your calorie needs are met. http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bio_avi If he can get by on 20 percent protein do you really think a girl needs more? I get 15-20 percent protein without supplements and getting better gains then ever before becasue i'm eatting real foods. I'd go out on the lim and say i'm stronger then any of those girls

So anyone who consumes protein powders is "just like and Omni" in your world, huh? That's just lovely. No figure competitor could consume 4000 calories for comp prep. They would need to roll her onto the stage because she would gain so much fat. Same with 3000 and most would even gain too much fat on 2000 or 2500. What you are suggesting is too many calories to get a cut, muscular look for most figure competitors. I would look like a Sumo wrestler on 3000 or 4000 calories. As I said before, she wasn’t asking you to evaluate her diet for “healthiness”. She was asking about Vegan sources that are high in protein and about a diet for an NPC show. What are you basing this statement on? My diet is anywhere between 28 and 35% protein and I've plugged it into several dietary software programs and I am OFF THE CHARTS in every single recommended Vitamin and Mineral and then some. I supplement with calcium, drink a ton of water and I'm one of the healthiest people I know. Ugh... yes, some figure girls take illegal drugs to acheive their look AND SOME DON'T. There are many natural competitors that would never think of taking anything. They would be the first to tell you they have a harder road because they refuse to take anything, but they wouldn't have it any other way. I can't help but shake my head at how negative you are about the sport. If a Vegan were to become an IFBB Figure Pro, do you have any idea how many people she would inspire to try out a Vegan lifestyle? Yet, you almost sound like the idea of someone having this dream offends you. It astounds me. And you're "guess" of 5% for a figure competitor is incorrect. They diet down to anywhere between 9 and 15% but that is for a very short period of time and right before the show. They do not stay at this level. What i'm saying at the top there is that if one thinks you need to supplement a vegan diet with protein just to get strong wouldn't that mean a vegan diet is inferior for proformance? You can be a monster on a omni diet without any supplements what so ever and i beilve you can get those results or better on a good vegan program. As far as the calories go that's why i've said numerious times that it depends on the person and what the person's goals are, but 20 percent protein is enough for any athlete. If your cutting hard for a competetion your not going to gain much mass anyways no matter how hard you train or how much protein you get. If one of those girls went on a extreme cut to get BF down with a 1,500 calorie diet then they'd still get 75 grams of protein a day. And your right about if a vegan were to be a top bb it would attract many new people to veganism which is great. Just think if Michael Phelps was a good rolemodel and was eatting a good diet how many people would be inspired to switch. Instead he just justifies people's poor eatting habits

Robert isn't all raw and i'd imagine most of the muscular guys arn't long term raw guys. If they were Raw they'd look like DW not RC and they'd not be competing like DW

Don't worry about it. What you do some of the time will never really effect you, it's what you do most of the time. Be consistant with training and try to get enough food daily. If you don't for a day or two no big deal.

There's no way you'd notice any thing in one day form lack of protein. More then likely you just under ate or did some thing else. Protein doesn't efect the current workout, but the recovery from that workout. A lack of carbs will effect current proformance to a large degree. There's a reason why athletes carb load before a event and not just eat a huge steak. Carbs are the fastest and most effient engery source.

If in fact as a Vegan you must comsume processed isolated protein powers to gain muscle then that would mean the Vegan diet isn't ideal for strength/ athletics and will allways for short of a omni diet and it's flawed. I don't get why but i see alot of vegans in hear stuck in the whole Protein protein protein minset to build muscle. The body only needs and uses the massive amounts of protein if your starved for carbs. Like i've said before when building muscle 20 percent protein is more than enough for anyone and the only thing that needs to be ajusted is calorie amount (depending on the person) and the protein will be where it needs to be. It's the supplement industry/ meat industry that has people so brain washed If your eatting 4000 calories a day and 20 percent from protein that comes out to 200 grams a day. What girl needs more then that?

Precisely, they didn't do it with 50 grams of proteins, so what do they know? Who tried it? The protein myth is deeply rooted. I haven't always been on "low" protein. What is "low", what is enough, what is high ? How much do you suggest her to take? Who said she should eat no proteins or low proteins ? Nobody. Of course she needs high proteins. I consider 1g/kg of bodyweight being high. Let's say someone of 70kg, that's 70 g proteins per day. Add maybe an extra 10 or 15 grams if you want. That's for bodybuilders. It is now aproved that 0,5g/kg is enough for sedentary people. Double that for bodybuilders. I'm not saying that 120, 150 or 200 g of proteins won't have good results for bodybuilders, I'm just saying that less proteins would give the same results, without causing a negative calcium balance, decreased energy (proteins are not the best energy source at all, the digestion of proteins is harder and longer, the metabolism of proteins results in more metabolite and purine, imparing on muscular effort) and other health issues. I agree. I've been on every diet there is and every gram amounts of protein from very little to a ton over 300 when i was on tons of powders and potions and never noticed any thing. The only times i've ever got bad results from training was when i wasn't eatting enough carbs and over all calories. I've been on diets where i'm getting 20/50/30 type things and got garbage strength increases. Those types of diets are good for one thing and that's getting extremely cut and working with the muscle you all ready have build no building alot of new muscle/ strength

Translation: You don't know what you are talking about, you are talking about it to someone who knows what she is talking and has actual experience with the situation and that person is expressing frustration at your arrogance. Veggieprincess. Please don't leave. I feel for where you are coming from. It isn't PC to say so, but particular types of people end up in particular communities. Saying so doesn't mean that it applies to 100% of the people nor does it mean that you don't love the community. Veganism tends to attract people who cling to ideas they take a fancy too even if it is obvious that reality is not so. This will not stop such people from arguing endlessly for their position. When I was their age I did the same thing as many of the raw foodists and alternative health types on this forum. I swallowed the alternative health marketing PR hook, line and sinker. I read the books by people with no authority that contradicted learning. I quoted conspiracy theories when a well meaning person would call me on my B.S. Reality will not be denied. Sooner or later it comes to collect the bills. That happened to me, I grew up, and started learning how to learn. I think the same thing will happen with most of those types on this forum.....eventually. Please don't get frustrated and leave. I'm not gonna leave BW. I'm not in here as often cuz I have some other things going on... but it would take more than that to make me leave for good. "I'm out" just meant I had enough for the night These threads happen all of the time on here, and I pretty much don't get involved because there are too many, and some people genuinely don't get a kick out of debating. I'm passionate so I get riled up... but debating the same point over and over wastes energy. I got riled up because I do know about NPC, and this OP is not quite Vegan yet, or still on the fence about embarking on this lifestyle and its more important for me to have her get the right information then to be steered in the wrong direction like I was several years ago. I have talked to many Vegan bodybuilders who are currently competing and none of them did it on 50 grams of protein. The ones who are actually in the arena and competing did it with the foundation of tried and true bodybuilding principles that have been shown to work for many decades. And that is not low protein. It doesen't mean taking in as much protein as the omni's... but they sure the heck didn't get there by low protein intake either. Of course, anyone can find the extremely low number of EXCEPTIONS to the rule. That's exaclty what they are... genetic exceptions of people who can build muscle and get shredded easily without following principles that most bodybuilders use. I asked my trainer if he would come on here and post. He's been putting competitors on stage for nearly 10 years, but I told him he may have people arguing with him that they don't need to worry about macronutrients or protein... and he said, "Melissa... I would absolutely lose my mind and blow my brains out if people started telling me they don't need protein on my threads".... His point was that if he was going to come on here and try to help Vegans, he couldn't be bothered with that kind of nonsense. It's like DV said awhile back... on all non-Vegan Bodybuilding/Figure communities, there is no time wasted with these kinds of debates. Nobody is debating each other on whether or not they need proteins, essential fats, to keep fruit intake to a minimum, watch their starches, etc... because they are all on the same page. THAT is where the frustration comes in. Because so much time is wasted on these types of debates that people can't get past that to get to the useful information that could allow Vegan Bodybuilders and Vegan Figure competitors to be more abundant and to do well on stage and set a great example. Anyways BW... thanks for the support Did i say 50 is all that one needs? I said if one were to get 20 percent protein which is enough for anyone and your getting enough calories you'll get enough protein. So if you need 6K calories a day, is 150 grams of protein a day enough? how about 8k a day and 200 grams enough?

I would bet that those women are bigger and more cut than the people who are not bodbuilders or figure competitors giving out alternative health advice. Probably not everything experienced competitors believe is true, but common sense would dictate at least looking at what has been working for people who have accomplished what someone asking for advice wants to accomplish. The alternative health, low protein advice will be taken more seriously when people who walk that walk start visibly winning many of those contests. No, anecdotal rumors about someone who might have done that once doesn't count as knowledge. No, I am not a bodybuilder or a figure competitor ( I don't look good in a bikini ), but those are not my fitness goals and I have enough common sense to not give advice that I don't know to be true. Most of the time. Those girls are most likely on some sort of drugs or at least legal test boosters of some sort. Girls start developing hormonal issues when they drop below around 13 percent bf and by the looks of it there around 5. There's some thing going on when a girl is bigger then most the big lean guys on here. basically alot of people on here buy into alot of the main stream/ meat/ supplement propaganda saying you need massive amount of protein or your diet should be 20/50/30.