CollegeB

Formica, the issue of loss of control is a hallmark of most mental health diagnoses.

Why is this a disorder, and may very well be in the DSM V? Because it's not regarded as the norm of behavior. Most folks don't think about what they eat or sweat about even being able to go out to restaurant and order something. Lets not even get into concerns about soy or sugar or a host of other ingredients. What will become of folks with allergies? They've got to be concerned about ingredients. Is a biological threat a reason to be diagnosed with some kind of mental disturbance? (I don't think so). I can't wait until there is a disorder for trying to be ethical. It sounds so completely absurd but there will be one eventually. The affluent world has been hyperdiagnosing itself for a very long time.

Marcina! Well put! LOL!!!!

Kids seem to make the connection very quickly, but they are certainly under the influence of their parents who normalize such violence in regards to eating habits. I've seen it with several children of friends of mine. They talk to me and understand a vegan diet and even why one would choose such a way to eat. One has said that she wanted to be a vegetarian, but then could not turn down a hamburger served by her parents.

BW, yeah I guess you could say I swing both ways as far as my beans/tofu goes.

I'm into having tofu and beans in the same meal if I can.

I'm with you chris he makes great points and supports them with data instead of just being another talking head and yeah the police wouldn't seem so bad if there not stupid laws they had to enforce.

I think the folks that give this book to children are most likely to have vegetarian or vegan children. Research has shown that these vegan and vegetarian children have higher levels of moral reasoning than their peer groups. I think because of this they probably wont have as much of a problem understanding concepts in this book, when compared to the general population. Also, most children in the 4-10 age range understand basic reasoning such as causing an animal pain is bad, and animals are hurt on factory farms so it's best not to have factory farms...unless you don't care about animals and very few children don't care about animals.

Stossel is on the right track as a libertarian, but he's still too strong of a statist as he does try to justify some state functions. Cutting back on regulation is all well and good but ridding ourselves of the military and police (which stossel defends) would be a big step in improving the lot of humanity. It would do far more good than government expansion into a market they already over-saturate.

I think you need to get your terminology straight. So you choose to go to the store, and you get what you want and you call that exploitation. Exploitation!?! A term generally used to describe situations in which a being is held captive and forced to perform tasks but is given little if any reward. And you see your situation as exploitation. You should get a hold of yourself ryan. And as for pets...I rescued my dog, it was going to be executed. Greedy me for wanting a perfectly good animal to be alive and to become a vegan no less. If feeding it and taking it out to get exercise and not giving a shit when it tears up my stuff is exploitation then you're a dolt.

Just to warn you now. this is a vegan forum and your diet is nowhere near vegan. I doubt that any of us can comment in support of the way you are eating right now, but we can help you veganize. If you're not looking to go vegan then check out the bodybuilding.com forums or something along those lines.

I had a good time looking at these pictures! I'm very impressed with the tofu wall you showed. There is a place near my hometown that has a similar wall of tofu. I call it "the great wall of tofu" I need to find something like that around here as the selection and pricing options make frequent tofu consumption more possible when you buy at the international stores as compared to the chain things.

Seeing some definition. Way to go phil! Keep up your hard work.

I like Stossel more since he's turned against our foreign occupations. I saw him in 2002 or so during my undergrad and in my opinion his data derived conclusions concerning policy and people's perceptions made sense and seemed to inform his political leanings, however his hands off/limited gov approach did not jive with his pro-war stance at the time. That huge of an inconsistency turned me off, but he's since changed/recanted. He's not so bad on that end, but I hear he's a jerk in personal life. His book ( I think it was give me a break) was an autobiography of sorts. I found his experiences from his career in media to be interesting.

You know he probably does think he's king. He barks at me when i'm eating...I guess I'm supposed to share. But the king whimpers if his subject is not in line of sight or serving his highness food or new toys or belly rubs. My only way to assert my dominance is taking him out for runs to burn off some energy. I can outrun him for the home stretch and I'm the last beast standing, always, as he hops up on the couch when we get home and I usually head off to work or some errands shortly after.

I lately have been running with my dog post workout then getting my grub on.

So on July 30th I adopted a dog through this local group which pulls animals out of the euthanasia chamber, just in the nick of time. His name is sam. He's a 1yr old german shepherd mix. He's had some training prior to him living with me. He could use some socialization with other dogs as he's still feeling them with his teeth and it freaks people and dogs out. Like the vegetarians of yesteryear I have hope that his vegan diet will make him a calmer and more amicable beast. He does like the vegan food over the regular dog food that the shelter group was feeding him. I still feed him a meal of a mix of vegan and regular and he eats the vegan par We run at least a mile a day and he likes to deconstruct tennis balls. Sam is pretty serious and doesn't play games like fetch. He's more interested in chasing cats, deer, and cattle. The couch is his now. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b352/collegeb/Sam.jpg

Heck yeah now we're talking! Gotta love the arm work.

I don't want to condemn activists, but I think it's important to strike at the root of this problem, not just the branches. I think many of us came to veganism through opposing practices. I myself was not into animal rights at all in the beginning as just a vegetarian which I did just out of environmental reasons, but then I thought more about animal rights, gave veganism a shot and the consistency between the two has kept things in line for me. I've got a solid reason, that cannot change. I have accepted a moral position. There really is not a way to talk me out of it. If I didn't want to eat animal products just because I thought the collection of milk was bad or I disagreed with "harvesting" animals or even just for the sake of losing weight then I might have tried some other avenue to achieve those ends. And there are many arguments that you can save the planet and still eat meat, so I don't know how long my vegetarianism would have lasted on those grounds. And you cant be an animal rights supporting mainstream vegetarian, that's just too much contradiction. I think without the underlying philosophy against animal exploitation there is not much to hold onto, and I wouldn't be vegan or even on this forum. There have been plenty of celeb vegans who are that way as a diet, and they're back to the standard american diet as soon as they reach their objective. I think just opposing practices will not keep one vegan or even vegetarian. It's a way to express you philosophy and try to make some difference, but I don't think its enough. for example,Francione talks a great deal about this humane meat campaign. There are vegetarians going back to meat eating because they think its okay as the practice of being inhumane to animals has somehow vanished with the cage free or free range labels. And then I hear from omnivores all the time that they dont eat a lot of meat but they dont feel bad about eating it since they buy organic free range stuff. So you have a situation where there is an attempt to reduce animal suffering but more animals are actually being consumed. The practice of inhumane animal treatment has been addressed, and without an underlying philosophy opposed to eating animals, what is a reasonable person to do other than resume their typical diet? There is no move to veganism, progress really isn't being made. In this light I don't see PETA as an effective organization since they're mainly about welfare, and end up collaborating with people who still consume meat. It's kind of confusing from a logical point of view. "This guy eats burgers, but not from McDonalds and he is against factory farms." They recently released some bit about how the military is exploiting animals, but what can you do? Write a representative? They don't care. What would turn more heads and get more press is PETA demanding the military be disbanded. Sure the right wing might say, "oh look crazy PETA is at it again" but you'd get more people on board with this more radical message, and it would get people thinking about the violence of the institution, not just an action. Actions can be reduced, but the underlying problem (violence is okay and will happen) provided by the institution (in this case the military) is going to remain unless it is opposed and abolished. By not opposing the institution you accept that it has a legitimate function, all the while causing things you find reprehensible. That institution won't change though. We can make laws to punish people who abuse dogs, but the incidents will continue to happen until there is a change in the philosophy of people, not just accepting that they shouldn't hit a dog which is going to be based more on the scenario (such as it's okay if nobody sees) than a long standing ideal such as it's wrong to do regardless. I see where you are coming from about Francione being self righteous. I have not heard him use the terms right and wrong specifically in accusation of people's actions, but a friend of mine who is also an ardent fan of Francione uses those terms against individuals and I really don't like it. Francione uses a line of reasoning about morality. If causing unnecessary suffering is wrong (and most people agree), and consuming animals is unnecessary (as vegans demonstrate) then those people eating and exploiting animals (who find unnecessary violence wrong, and see you can live without meat) don't take morality seriously. And I like to add that they lack consistent principles. I know a lot of folks who oppose violence but still are eating chicken and steak and whatever. They are not being consistent in my eyes as there is violence on that plate. I'm also biased against institutions as an anarchist. I don't see reform working on them so I'm not into politics or keeping these hierarchical and unwieldy institutions around at all. Its a waste of effort and serves to be very frustrating as you celebrate minor victories, but the problems still remain and typically continue to get worse despite the best efforts of many. To me I don't see a reason to reform say the department of agriculture as it's just going to be used as a tool by elites to fund the status quo (meat consumption and unsustainable agriculture), there just is not a need for such a thing and the large interests it serves, you can't reform it or change it, that's just the way these things work. Get rid of them! Abolish the institutions themselves. Free the animals and free the people.

I haven't seen any like that which would be acceptable for vegans. I wear a belt from couch guitar straps most days, and actually I found some pleather belts at pac sun for $10.

I think it's great that people try to find common ground with me, but the misuse of terms does get on my nerves. I correct them. I say in a tongue in cheek(e) way, "I'm confused, fish isn't a vegetable..." I have yet to meet someone clueless enough to disagree with me.

in my view a friend of mine who pulled me into the world of conspiracy theory researched 9/11 from all aspects for about 2 years and eventually concluded that the building did fall, and even if the government was involved it's not going to be public knowledge. He tends to believe the story as is commonly viewed, and may have some issue with minor details like how hot something burns, but overall the situation is just as it appears-government incompetence. The intelligence agencies have been talking about lack of ability to process information since before 2000. Of course they missed an attack on this country. And why would you have your air force shoot commercial airliners full of civilians out of the sky? Cheney avoided a huge PR nightmare on that one, I think. I appreciate and support that people are suspicious and distrustful of the government (as they should be) but all this conspiracy goop leads one to nowhere. You go around talking like a nut job, you're not solving any problems and actually just ruining your own mental health. People don't want to talk to you, and you go down the rabbit whole of "them" this and "they" that. You've got no ground to stand on, just hunches and wild accusations. I've counseled a few folks I know from the movement out of their paranoid delusions. Thankfully they continue to be adjusted to what psychologically passes for a normal life. They still are watchful but are nowhere as paralyzed by fear and delusions as they were. I hope abey can get to that point eventually. And, I don't give a shit if obama buys his wife a ring and nobody should care what he does with his money. He's an elite, of course he's not living like most people. Who knew, what a surprise! Now can we get on to the part about mole people from a different dimension and how they are causing the sun to destroy mountains which are releasing toxic chemicals into the water supply?

And also using legitimate disabilities to insult someone is very disrespectful to folks who have to work through the challenges posed by such situations. Both of ya'll should chill the fuck out.

I'm with francione (abolition). Oppose the institutions. It's not that animals are being mistreated that's the whole problem, it's that they are in the situations they are in to begin with.

My favorite dumb thing someone said to me was that you cannot live without meat. I asked them why I had not died about 10 years ago, and they shut up.